Are Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool Done?

murpho999

amacachi wrote: »

Yes.

Care to expand?

cson

murpho999 wrote: »

How is he out of touch with the "modern game".

This is bollix.

Ball is still round, still 11 v 11 etc.

Have Ferguson and Wenger changed their management style over the last few years for "modern game".

Certainly AW has adapted his teams tactically in the past few years. First with the 5 across midfield in the 2006 CL run and latterly by playing wingers with 3 rotating CMs.

Management style Arsene is still the same transfer wise as its sell the finished articles and try to pull another rabbit out of the hat job.

Professional Griefer

murpho999 wrote: »

You know in 1989/90 if the internet was around there would have been a thread entitled "Are Alex Ferguson and Man Utd Done?".

He had spent big money but had disastrous league form, calls for his head from supporters was huge but board stuck with him, FA Cup win relieved some pressure and bought him time and the rest is history.

Lesson is that some managers and projects deserve time.

What about Roy then?

I agree that firing him is the wrong thing to do, especially now. I don't think hes a good enough manager for modern football, like many have said before.
I would expect him to step down when this season finishes.

Nalz

murpho999 wrote: »

Lesson is that some managers and projects deserve time.

Why do you think these projects are not given the same amount of time these days as apposed to 25, 30 or even 40 years ago?

rossie1977

murpho999 wrote: »

You know in 1989/90 if the internet was around there would have been a thread entitled "Are Alex Ferguson and Man Utd Done?".

try 2010 http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68606835

Will I Amnt

murpho999 wrote: »

How is he out of touch with the "modern game"?

This is bollix.

Ball is still round, still 11 v 11 etc.

Have Ferguson and Wenger changed their management style over the last few years for "modern game"?

The tactics and style of play is dated,there doesn't seem to be a plan b either if things are not going well.
The game has evolved since he managed Blackburn.

AwayWithFaries

The-Rigger wrote: »

We scored 2 tonight. :pac:

Yeah and we should have had five or six. Tonight's result was a freak though, just one of these stupid things that happen every now and again. We didn't play bad and didn't deserve to lose, stupid mistakes and concentration lapses cost us.

But in general scoring goals has been the issue this season how many games have we dominated but failed to score, it's pretty sickening.

KeithAFC

What makes people think Kenny Dalglish was ever a good manager anyway? Was never known as a great manager.

His signings prove the point. He tried to put square pegs in round holes because they are all British and based his theory on them "knowing" the league. They aren't that good. Nationality won't save you in football.

Suarez can't score goals. A forward who can't find the back of the net on a consistent basis for a big club isn't much good. Reina also seems to have let slip standards wise.

Mr Alan

cambo2008 wrote: »

The tactics and style of play is dated,there doesn't seem to be a plan b either if things are not going well.
The game has evolved since he managed Blackburn.

What about the tactics & style of play is dated?



You just said yourself, a top finisher in our team & we'd be well in the CL places?

Nalz

KeithAFC wrote: »

What makes people think Kenny Dalglish was ever a good manager anyway? Was never known as a great manager.

His signings prove the point. He tried to put square pegs in round holes because they are all British and based his theory on them "knowing" the league. They aren't that good. Nationality won't save you in football.

Suarez can't score goals. A forward who can't find the back of the net on a consistent basis for a big club isn't much good. Reina also seems to have let slip standards wise.

Where does this Comoli fella fit in in all of this?

Mr Alan

KeithAFC wrote: »

What makes people think Kenny Dalglish was ever a good manager anyway? Was never known as a great manager.

His signings prove the point. He tried to put square pegs in round holes because they are all British and based his theory on them "knowing" the league. They aren't that good. Nationality won't save you in football.

Suarez can't score goals. A forward who can't find the back of the net on a consistent basis for a big club isn't much good. Reina also seems to have let slip standards wise.

This is one of the worst posts I've ever read. Ever.

amacachi

murpho999 wrote: »

Care to expand?

Wenger maybe not so much, he's been stuck in 2004 since 1998 :pac: Recently he's shown a lot more emotion though.
Fergie from what I've heard has learned to delegate a lot more in the last decade or so and not overreach himself. Tactics have changed, defending has definitely changed and in the last 25 years Fergie has either changed a lot or allowed someone else to change a lot.

ColeTrain

Mr Alan wrote: »

What about the tactics & style of play is dated?



You just said yourself, a top finisher in our team & we'd be well in the CL places?

For all the money he spent you could have had two top finishers in your side. That's no excuse but rather a failing of his management.

ush

KeithAFC wrote: »

What makes people think Kenny Dalglish was ever a good manager anyway? Was never known as a great manager.

Are you 12?

cson

He makes a valid point I think though that Pepe Reina has let his standards slip over the past couple of seasons. That may be down partially to whats in front of him but take for example the QPR equaliser - positionally and from a command of your area point of view you have to be better.

Mr Alan

cson wrote: »

He makes a valid point I think though that Pepe Reina has let his standards slip over the past couple of seasons. That may be down partially to whats in front of him but take for example the QPR equaliser - positionally and from a command of your area point of view you have to be better.

He has been poor this season.

I guess in this kneejerkish football culture we seem to inhabit we should sell him.

KeithAFC

Mr Alan wrote: »

This is one of the worst posts I've ever read. Ever.

Why? Kenny Dalglish was never a great manager. Look at his signings. It seems clear to me he completely messed up any chance Liverpool had of a top 4 position with his signings.

I don't see what is wrong with pointing this out. If this was any other manager in charge of Liverpool, they would be under huge pressure. But because it is Kenny Dalgish, there seems to be no pressure on him at all.

Will I Amnt

Mr Alan wrote: »

What about the tactics & style of play is dated?



You just said yourself, a top finisher in our team & we'd be well in the CL places?

Back then you were up against 4-4-2 and not much else,I just don't see any attention given to combat the way other teams set up and no plan b when things go wrong.
A top finisher is the main problem not the only one.

murpho999

amacachi wrote: »

Wenger maybe not so much, he's been stuck in 2004 since 1998 :pac: Recently he's shown a lot more emotion though.
Fergie from what I've heard has learned to delegate a lot more in the last decade or so and not overreach himself. Tactics have changed, defending has definitely changed and in the last 25 years Fergie has either changed a lot or allowed someone else to change a lot.

Yes, but when Fergie came in he needed to stamp his authority all over the club, wean out the crap, change drinking culture etc.

Fast forward 20 years his policies have been successful and everything about how the football side of the club is being run is to his standards and ideas and therefore he can delegate knowing that people under him know what is expected.

Don't agree about tactics changing to show how they are 'modern managers'. Tactics are often dictated by the squad and what type of players they have.

A good manager will adopt tactics that suit the qualities of the squad best.

I just don't know what 'modern' tactics are apart from squad rotation.

Mr Alan

KeithAFC wrote: »

Why? Kenny Dalglish was never a great manager. Look at his signings. It seems clear to me he completely messed up any chance Liverpool had of a top 4 position with his signings.

I don't see what is wrong with pointing this out. If this was any other manager in charge of Liverpool, they would be under huge pressure. But because it is Kenny Dalgish, there seems to be no pressure on him at all.

How many managers who aren't good have won multiple league titles in England, with different clubs?

Christ sake, this season we've a great chance of winning two trophies with 1 already in the bag.

There's quite clearly huge pressure on him.

You need to be quiet I think.

murpho999

KeithAFC wrote: »

What makes people think Kenny Dalglish was ever a good manager anyway? Was never known as a great manager.

His signings prove the point. He tried to put square pegs in round holes because they are all British and based his theory on them "knowing" the league. They aren't that good. Nationality won't save you in football.

Suarez can't score goals. A forward who can't find the back of the net on a consistent basis for a big club isn't much good. Reina also seems to have let slip standards wise.

Mr Alan

cambo2008 wrote: »

Back then you were up against 4-4-2 and not much else,I just don't see any attention given to combat the way other teams set up and no plan b when things go wrong.

I'm genuinely confused by this. You reckon every team played 4-4-2 in the PL early days?

Kenny has utilised multiple formations this season & adopted a very fluid style of play. Last season he was praised for his tactical prowess in combatting Stoke by playing 3 at the back with wing backs, this season he was ridiculed for the same thing. Tonight we were coasting playing good stuff, happy days, we switch off for ten minutes & lose a game we should have won. Nothing to do with tactics my friend. You yourself have said what we're lacking is a goal scorer, if you're dominating games, playing well but just unable to create the multiple chances you're creating, there's little wrong with the tactics tbh.

Football is a simple game.

cson

Mr Alan wrote: »

He has been poor this season.

I guess in this kneejerkish football culture we seem to inhabit we should sell him.

Not what I'm getting at at all.

The point I'm trying to make is you need your senior players to perform and lead by example and Reina needs to step up to the plate in this regard. Might be a simple case of dropping him for a game in the league to let him know he's not untouchable.

Nalz

murpho999 wrote: »

He was a very good manager who inherited a good side at Liverpool and a checkbook at Blackburn imo.

Liverpool (1985–1991, 2011– )
Football League First Division (3): 1985–86, 1987–88, 1989–90
FA Cup (2): 1985–86, 1988–89
Football League Cup (1): 2011–12
Blackburn Rovers (1991–1995)
FA Premier League (1): 1994–95
Football League Second Division Play Off Winners (1): 1991–92
Celtic (2000)
Scottish League Cup (1): 1999–2000

KeithAFC

Mr Alan wrote: »

How many managers who aren't good have won multiple league titles in England, with different clubs?

Christ sake, this season we've a great chance of winning two trophies with 1 already in the bag.

There's quite clearly huge pressure on him.

You need to be quiet I think.

I think this could be debated if you are talking about his titles with Liverpool. Domination would be an understatement in that era for Liverpool.

I just think he should be questioned more on this league campaign. It seems to me there is a lot of excuses flying around for him and it doesn't really wash to be honest.

What exactly is he doing on the training ground to improve league results? Why did he sign Charlie Adam and Andy Carroll? More questions need asked of him.

Xavi6

Trilla wrote: »

He was a very good manager who inherited a good side at Liverpool and a checkbook at Blackburn imo.

Nalz

Xavi6 wrote: »

???

markesmith

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think this could be debated if you are talking about his titles with Liverpool. Domination would be an understatement in that era for Liverpool.

I just think he should be questioned more on this league campaign. It seems to me there is a lot of excuses flying around for him and it doesn't really wash to be honest.

What exactly is he doing on the training ground to improve league results? Why did he sign Charlie Adam and Andy Carroll? More questions need asked of him.

Ex-Celtic as well KAFC...has that anything to do with it? :rolleyes:

niallo27

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think this could be debated if you are talking about his titles with Liverpool. Domination would be an understatement in that era for Liverpool.

I just think he should be questioned more on this league campaign. It seems to me there is a lot of excuses flying around for him and it doesn't really wash to be honest.

What exactly is he doing on the training ground to improve league results? Why did he sign Charlie Adam and Andy Carroll? More questions need asked of him.

Wasnt Charlie Adam 2nd in the player of the season last time, a lot of clubs were after him, most peope agreed he was a good signing at the start of the season, why he has turned to ****, that i'm not sure.

Xavi6

Trilla wrote: »

???

Liverpool fans (and eagleeye) gonna get you for that

Sasquatch76

Xavi6 wrote: »

Liverpool fans (and eagleeye) gonna get you for that

Your image was blocked by the site you were hotlinking from.

Mr Alan

KeithAFC wrote: »

What exactly is he doing on the training ground to improve league results? Why did he sign Charlie Adam and Andy Carroll? More questions need asked of him.

Questions are being asked of him. He has an 'is he done thread' on the SF for christs sake

Adam was very good for us until Lucas got injured & cost **** all in relative terms. The stream of injuries to Gerrard combined with losing Lucas has meant Adam has suffered big time, but I'm happy to have him at the club for the monies we paid (pittance in modern terms). 2 goals & 11 assists this season for him.

Trilla wrote: »

He was a very good manager who inherited a good side at Liverpool and a checkbook at Blackburn imo.

You're being a tad disingenuous mate.

Look at the players he signed for Liverpool. He obviously inherited a good side but he rebuilt it & arguably made it our best ever.

This 'cheque book' things grates me too. Ferguson spent mammoth money in quest of a league title at Utd. Is he a cheque book manager? Jose the same at Chelsea, cheque book manager?

Xavi6

Sasquatch76 wrote: »

Your image was blocked by the site you were hotlinking from.

Was the usual MJ popcorn gif, nothing exciting.

Will I Amnt

Mr Alan wrote: »

I'm genuinely confused by this. You reckon every team played 4-4-2 in the PL early days?

Kenny has utilised multiple formations this season & adopted a very fluid style of play. Last season he was praised for his tactical prowess in combatting Stoke by playing 3 at the back with wing backs, this season he was ridiculed for the same thing. Tonight we were coasting playing good stuff, happy days, we switch off for ten minutes & lose a game we should have won. Nothing to do with tactics my friend. You yourself have said what we're lacking is a goal scorer, if you're dominating games, playing well but just unable to create the multiple chances you're creating, there's little wrong with the tactics tbh.

Football is a simple game.

There wasn't much variation in formation back then.
For any manager to spend that time out of the game and then come back they will be out of touch.
To be honest it wasn't the footballing side I was originally getting at but more his dealings with the press.

At the end of the day he thought Andy Carroll was the way to go,what kind of football do you intend playing when you buy a battering ram like him?

Nalz

Xavi6 wrote: »

Liverpool fans (and eagleeye) gonna get you for that

I'm just a guy who likes football typing on the internet. Can you tell me what your picture meant? Is it cas I pulled managerial stats of Dalglish off another site? All typed and formatted myself Otherwise I genuinely haven't a clue!

Mr Alan

cambo2008 wrote: »

To be honest it wasn't the footballing side I was originally getting at but more his dealings with the press.

Fair enough. You may have a point there but tbh I much prefer an old school manager when it comes to stuff like that. Ferguson being a prime example, 'typical cheating Germans'....hardly a modern liberal approach to an interview!

cambo2008 wrote:

At the end of the day he thought Andy Carroll was the way to go,what kind of football do you intend playing when you buy a battering ram like him?

We've played some excellent football when Carroll has been in the side tbf. The problems stem from when we use him as an 'out' & just hoof it up to him. Thankfully with Carra's diminishing role in the team we're seeing less & less of that.

cson

niallo27 wrote: »

Wasnt Charlie Adam 2nd in the player of the season last time, a lot of clubs were after him, most peope agreed he was a good signing at the start of the season, why he has turned to ****, that i'm not sure.

He had a team built around him at Blackpool, not so much at Liverpool. Though I do take the point that Lucas did a lot for him.

Nalz

Mr Alan wrote: »

You're being a tad disingenuous mate.

Look at the players he signed for Liverpool. He obviously inherited a good side but he rebuilt it & arguably made it our best ever.

This 'cheque book' things grates me too. Ferguson spent mammoth money in quest of a league title at Utd. Is he a cheque book manager? Jose the same at Chelsea, cheque book manager?

The one thing I would say about SAF and Mourinho over Dalgish is that they have had great success, including European success with clubs that they didn't spent vast amounts of money on (Aberdeen and Porto). Although whos to say Dalgish could have gone on a good run in the European cup at Anfield I suppose. Winning the scottish first division in the 70s with st Mirren was no easy task apparently, the one club who sacked him!

Fergie did spend massively in the early 90s to finally clean up what was a mess of a club at one point, and has purchased heavily in bursts over a long long period of management at the top level.

Maybe I am being a tad harsh on Dalglish but I would never call him a "great" manager.

Mr Alan

Trilla wrote: »

Maybe I am being a tad harsh on Dalglish but I would never call him a "great" manager.

KeithAFC wrote: »

What makes people think Kenny Dalglish was ever a good manager anyway?

The above is the comment that irked me.

I think we both agree it's a retarded sentiment.

I do think you're being harsh by saying that the manager who rebuilt a very good team into arguably Liverpool's greatest ever team, winning multiple leagues & cups with them before moving to another team & turning them into League Champions, was not a great manager.

Even in this, his first full season back, in what is being perceived as an abject failure of a season worthy of a sacking, there's a good chance the man will win both domestic cups

Nalz

Mr Alan wrote: »

The above is the comment that irked me.

I think we both agree it's a retarded sentiment.

I do think you're being harsh by saying that the manager who rebuilt a very good team into arguably Liverpool's greatest ever team, winning multiple leagues & cups with them before moving to another team & turning them into League Champions, was not a great manager.

Even in this, his first full season back, in what is being perceived as an abject failure of a season worthy of a sacking, there's a good chance the man will win both domestic cups

Points taken, and I agree on nearly all of them. I just feel there is way too many better managers out there that dont get the label great that are better than him. After all, Roy Hodgson has 5 Scandinavian league titles and got Fulham and Inter to Uefa cup finals :P

gnfnrhead

A lot can change in a short period of time in football. While things aren't exactly looking good for him now, things weren't exactly looking good for Wenger either as recently as January. Looking like Arsenal were going to finish outside the top four and could have been nearly 15 points behind Spurs. Fast forward a few weeks and Arsenal are now third, one point ahead of Spurs. Liverpool aren't THAT far behind right now. A good run of results and they will be right back in there with an outside chance of fourth. I hate that managers are given so little time nowadays.

amacachi

gnfnrhead wrote: »

A lot can change in a short period of time in football. While things aren't exactly looking good for him now, things weren't exactly looking good for Wenger either as recently as January. Looking like Arsenal were going to finish outside the top four and could have been nearly 15 points behind Spurs. Fast forward a few weeks and Arsenal are now third, one point ahead of Spurs. Liverpool aren't THAT far behind right now. A good run of results and they will be right back in there with an outside chance of fourth. I hate that managers are given so little time nowadays.

This season? If Liverpool win all the rest of their games they need 2 of these:
Arsenal to get 14/27 or less
Tottenham to get 15/27 or less
Chelsea to get 20/27 or less

gnfnrhead

amacachi wrote: »

This season? If Liverpool win all the rest of their games they need 2 of these:
Arsenal to get 14/27 or less
Tottenham to get 15/27 or less
Chelsea to get 20/27 or less

I did say outside chance
Even just mounting a challenge for fourth again should be enough to spur the team on for next season. They almost definitely won't get it, but being thereabouts is easily doable if they hit a good run and soon.

Chelsea could easily get less than 20. That's only three losses. They still have a couple of big games to come as well.

amacachi

gnfnrhead wrote: »

I did say outside chance
Even just mounting a challenge for fourth again should be enough to spur the team on for next season. They almost definitely won't get it, but being thereabouts is easily doable if they hit a good run and soon.

Chelsea could easily get less than 20. That's only three losses. They still have a couple of big games to come as well.

And Liverpool win all their games? Best winning runs this year:
Arsenal 5 in a row (withing 7 wins in 8) and 6 in a row separately.
Spurs 6 in a row (within 10 wins in 11).
Chelsea 3 in a row three times.
Liverpool 2 in a row three time.

Snow chance.

JimsAlterEgo

gnfnrhead wrote: »

I did say outside chance
Even just mounting a challenge for fourth again should be enough to spur the team on for next season. They almost definitely won't get it, but being thereabouts is easily doable if they hit a good run and soon.

Chelsea could easily get less than 20. That's only three losses. They still have a couple of big games to come as well.

more chance of finishing outside top 10

kippy

I don't see any point in letting the man go at this stage of the season.
What is killing him badly are the people he has bought in and, more importantly the price tags tied to them.
The excuses made here and elsewhere about needing a "world class striker" and a world class striker is just daft in my opinion.

Notable signings:
Carroll cost more than any other striker every purchased in the premier league, bar Torres. Suarez is up there in the top 10 most expensive every strikers bought in the PL.
What in the name of all that is good, expect world class strikers to cost?
While Carroll probably will improve (it's hard not too from the level he is at now) and Suarez is a "decent player" that can be offloaded for close to or more than what was paid, it is evident that right now they are not good enough.

They clearly aren't world class strikers but spending world class striker fees on not world class strikers is gonna hurt you big time.

Downing has always been inconsistent, and usually very inconsistent. Spending the money they did on him was again, just idiotic.

Adam, for the money was a good buy, a good squad backup player despite the majority of his performances. He hasn't fitted in as of yet.

Bellamy was a great player to pick up on a free, but again he cannot play the games required.

Coates, not seen enough of him. On reputation along (particularily amoung the Liverpool fans I know) he is the next Maldini.

Enrique, a good buy for the money, shored up a position that badly needed shoring up. Prone to mistakes but isnt everyone.

Henderson, way way way overpriced, and hasnt shown signs of anything as of yet, he could improve but the jury is out.

Key Issues this season:

Lucas getting injured. (Long term)
Gerard getting injured. (Long term)
Reina not being up to his old standard (this could again be put down to the players in front of him)
Carragher having is best days well behind him.
The inconsistent central back pairing and injury proneness of players in this area.

The first two issues meant that Kennys buys HAD to play in a lot of games, perhaps this compounded the pressure on them and the expectation placed upon them.
The final issue is a major one. Im't not entirely sure how settled the back four have been (I dont watch enough games) but I do believe it hasnt been that settled and a settled back four is key. That being said they have a decent goal against record.

Luck, there is an major element of luck that has gone against Liverpool this season, no matter what anyone says, while it could be blamed on bad finishing, hitting the woodwork the amount of times they have is just insane.

Kennys performance.
He made a complete balls of the Suarez racism situation, as indeed did the club in general, I don't know who was calling the shots.
Tactically, theres nothing to say he isn't up there with the "modern" managers, or he'd be relagated last season. A lot is made of this point and it is something I thought at the time of his appointment but I dont think he's that bad on that sense. Some of his substitutions are strange, I'll give you that.
Dealing with the media - I don't place an importance on that tbh - Fergie was never a media friendly manager, the best managers generally aren't.
I don't know enough about how he manages people, egos, motivates to comment.

Performance wise they have won one cup and are a long way in the second cup. League has been poor.

He deserves at least another season in my opinion. He probably wont get much money to spend this summer so whatever is spent will need to be spent wisely. The players he has already bought will need to progress big time.

But who knows what the owners will do. They ultimately hold the purse strings and they are the ones who know what they want from their team.

ShiverinEskimo

Don't forget the kit deals kippy - he gots some gooooood kit deals.

kippy

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Don't forget the kit deals kippy - he gots some gooooood kit deals.

Was that a dig?

There are a number of key staff at the club. Nowadays the commercial/marketing/PR (whatever role) is key. Getting the best sponsorship available it critical. Very little of that side of it is directly down to Kenny. Indirectly the better Liverpool do the more they should get in commercial deals.

One thing I didnt mention was Comoli. What exact role does he have and how much of the issues with transfers can be put down to him?
I am not entirely sure what he does and how much responsibility he has.

I am not a Kenny apologist, I just don't think it is fair to sack the manager after this relatively short period of time, especially when this guy has brought in his own players (at cost) staff and setup. The club have won a cup, in the hunt for a second, and could build on this for next season. A new guy, now, he will want his own staff, will want to rejig the team and lets be honest, Liverpool aren't the team to attract the big names in management at the moment.

Handsome Bob

I'm incensed by what happened last night, but I'll reiterate an opinion of mine that I seem to be in the minority in holding: I'll accept a domestic cup double win as a passable season for Kenny. I'm willing to overlook a failure to mount a decent Top 4 challenge this season as I believe a domestic cup double will be an excellent building block for next season.

That's not to say Kenny hasn't fcuked up, he has. Most notably in the striker and not replacing Lucas in January stakes.

_blank_

Handsome Bob wrote: »

I'm incensed by what happened last night, but I'll reiterate an opinion of mine that I seem to be in the minority in holding: I'll accept a domestic cup double win as a passable season for Kenny. I'm willing to overlook a failure to mount a decent Top 4 challenge this season as I believe a domestic cup double will be an excellent building block for next season.

That's not to say Kenny hasn't fcuked up, he has. Most notably in the striker and not replacing Lucas in January stakes.

So what about anything less than a domestic cup double?

Chelsea could beat Liverpool, and are a better team at the moment, imo, and would be favourites.

Finish 7th, Carling Cup and FA Cup exit at Semi, or lose the final.

I think that is the omst likely outcome for the season, and simply is not good enough.