Are Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool Done?

steelcityblues

plasmaguy wrote: »

And John Henry knows what about soccer? That's right, zero, like all these American, Russian and Qatari owners.

Football is a tough business, and to be honest if he wanted to buy success or a top 4 finish, you'd nearly have to replace all the Liverpool players bar perhaps Reyna and Gerard.

Unless you are going to criticise Henry for having some ambition, now? He knows how to run the Red Sox in baseball well, so he's not a total mug. He's certainly not in the same league as Abramovich, when it comes to being an awful owner.

Mr Alan

plasmaguy wrote: »

Yeh and if Klopp doesn't get 4th or 5th, what then, sack him too? Where does it end?

Seriously need to give Daglish more time, at least until the end of next season.

Sacking a manager in his first full season and after delivering one cup and potentially another, just because he is 1 or maybe 2 places down the table from where his team should be, is frankly daft, even you must admit that.

I'm dumbfounded people can't agree with that.

plasmaguy

plasmaguy wrote: »

That_Guy wrote: »

How? He wasn't firing on all cylinders at Liverpool and it was clear that he was unhappy.



Possibly but the FA Cup isn't a foregone conclusion. A Carling Cup is decent yes but only a Carling Cup and a non top 4 finish wouldn't be classed as a success given the money they've spent.



Realistically, Liverpool's aim was top 4. Always was but it doesn't look likely at all anymore.



Yep but Liverpool have spent 100 million to try and bridge the gap... Didn't work. Won't work and the manager has to be culpable.



Have been for a while.



Unless you switch manager. Kenny's not getting the best out of what he has and it's evident. A manger like say, Jurgen Klopp would be ideal at Liverpool in my opinion. He's built a young and excellent side with Dortmund and I think he could get the best out of Liverpool players.



No they are not. Realistically they should be on the fringes of the top 4 at the moment and not 5 points behind us.

Yeh and if Klopp doesn't get 4th or 5th, what then, sack him too? Where does it end?

Seriously need to give Daglish more time, at least until the end of next season.

Sacking a manager in his first full season and after delivering one cup and potentially another, just because he is 1 or maybe 2 places down the table from where his team should be, is frankly daft, even you must admit that.

If Newcastle won a cup of any sort the manager would probably get an MBE and the supporters would be happy for another 40 years.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

I'm dumb people can't agree with that.

while i do agree with the sentiment, there's more to it than that. an itch that i can't quite scratch if you will...and it's this...

do you trust him with making more big money signings?

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

plasmaguy wrote: »

Yeh and if Klopp doesn't get 4th or 5th, what then, sack him too? Where does it end?

Seriously need to give Daglish more time, at least until the end of next season.

Sacking a manager in his first full season and after delivering one cup and potentially another, just because he is 1 or maybe 2 places down the table from where his team should be, is frankly daft, even you must admit that.

I'm dumbfounded people can't agree with that.

In fairness most of the people that don't are people that don't support Liverpool so they don't really count

That_Guy

plasmaguy wrote: »

Yeh and if Klopp doesn't get 4th or 5th, what then, sack him too? Where does it end?

Frankly I think Dalglish has been given enough time/money and backing from the owners as it is. He's bought rubbish, they're not performing as well as they should be and is far from the goal set to him at the start of the season.

I know all about managers being sacked after a set of bad results at Newcastle but Dalglish has had time. His tactics aren't working and I think the board need to have a serious rethink. If I was the one pumping money into the club would I want another 100 million spent on fairly average players with just a Carling Cup to show for it? No.

Seriously need to give Daglish more time, at least until the end of next season.

Again, I think he's had enough time. He gave the club a much needed boost after Hodgson was sacked but I don't think he can spark that fire again to be honest.

Sacking a manager in his first full season and after delivering one cup and potentially another, just because he is 1 or maybe 2 places down the table from where his team should be, is frankly daft, even you must admit that.

Judge him by the end but at the moment a Carling Cup and a non top 4 finish given the money spent is not success and does not guarantee job safety.

I'd admit that'd it be daft for a mid table side to sack a manager especially if they're safe from relegation but Liverpool are aiming well above that. I don't think they should sack him now but I'd be surprised if he's in charge come the start of next season.

That_Guy

That_Guy wrote: »

plasmaguy wrote: »

And John Henry knows what about soccer? That's right, zero, like all these American, Russian and Qatari owners.

What the fúck? I'm sure he does know a lot about soccer. If he doesn't, I'm sure he knows about investment and potential returns. I don't think he'd throw 100 million into the transfer kitty if he didn't think the propsect of Champions League football was too far away.

Football is a tough business, and to be honest if he wanted to buy success or a top 4 finish, you'd nearly have to replace all the Liverpool players bar perhaps Reyna and Gerard.

Bollocks. The majority of your players have a ton of Champions League experience.

Id imagine John Henry knows more about runnning a business than Mr Guy.

It's lazy posting to think Liverpool are out 100m. Ignorant infact.

Dempsey

SlickRic wrote: »

while i do agree with the sentiment, there's more to it than that. an itch that i can't quite scratch if you will...and it's this...

do you trust him with making more big money signings?

Is every transfer at Liverpool a Dalglish signing? How much responsibility can be attributed to Damien Comolli? Are both of them working well together or are they just tolerating each other?

That_Guy

rarnes1 wrote: »

If Newcastle won a cup of any sort the manager would probably get an MBE and the supporters would be happy for another 40 years.

Exactly because our expectations and budget aren't as big as Liverpool's obviously.

Dempsey

Dempsey wrote: »

SlickRic wrote: »

while i do agree with the sentiment, there's more to it than that. an itch that i can't quite scratch if you will...and it's this...

do you trust him with making more big money signings?

Is every transfer at Liverpool a Dalglish signing? How much responsibility can be attributed to Damien Comolli? Are both of them working well together or are they just tolerating each other?

Didn't you hear,Camoli signs the players that are a success, Kenny signs the donkeys...

That_Guy

rarnes1 wrote: »

Id imagine John Henry knows more about runnning a business than Mr Guy.

It's lazy posting to think Liverpool are out 100m. Ignorant infact.

100 million is what has been spent. I'm sure Liverpool have more than that in their coffers.

Mr Alan

That_Guy wrote: »

Again, I think he's had enough time.

This is what mystifies me.

Up until Christmas this year, we were pretty much on course for where we wanted to be.

You're basically saying that 3 bad months justify sacking a manager. I know you're a Newcastle fan & that's kind of how yous have done things in the past, but surely you can't genuinely believe that is the right way to go?

rossie1977

That_Guy wrote: »

Unless you switch manager. Kenny's not getting the best out of what he has and it's evident. A manger like say, Jurgen Klopp would be ideal at Liverpool in my opinion. He's built a young and excellent side with Dortmund and I think he could get the best out of Liverpool players.

hadnt gullit built a young and excellent side at chelsea when newcastle snapped him up

AVB built a young and excellent side at porto and look how well that turned out

liverpool are 5 points behind newcastle but liverpool have been challenging on 3 fronts this year compared to newcastles one, even city and utd whose squads cost £200m and £100m more than liverpools respectively have only been able to challenge on one front, mancini has come out and said he needs a bigger squad

Vicxas

Well look im a liverpool fan and honestly last night kicked me square in the nuts.

BUT. There is no point in jumping to conclusions. Kenny needs more time. Not everybody gets it right in their first season and the Carling cup and (hopefully) The F.A Cup will go someways to keeping him in a job until he does get it right team wise.

El Inho

I didn't want to support this thread in anyway, but feck it may aswell.

To be honest, I don't believe he has had the time needed.

We are stuck in between Wenger and AVB territory here, but to be fair we are much closer to AVB territory.

If LFC is a growing project, then since about two or three games ago, we can write off league performance. The 4th spot is gone.

Taking that into consideration, last night, while infuriating to experience such disgraceful lack of shutting a game down, makes very little difference in the great scheme of things.

The players know the 4th spot is gone, and it makes playing league games much harder. For this reason I'm greatly in support of youngsters having the rest of the season to themselves. Nurse Gerrard by playing Shelvey more often. Hint to Carra his days are numbered by giving Coates game time, or rest Skrtle and play both Carra and Coates.

Robinson and Flanno could do with some game time as both impressed last season when they were asked to step into the breach. Sterling, Coady, Suso are all young bloods, and the league is now the perfect chance to see what they are made of. Some players make it, some dont, but lets remember Owen, Gerrard etc all made debuts at young age. It's time to see if these young lads are in anyway worth a punt on further development.

Now the calling for Kenny's head, while I understand why its happening, believe it or not is far too premature.

He's made questionable signings, and that needs to be addressed. All Kenny needs to do is follow the LFC thread here to make everyone happy, but as we all know, there is a lot more involved in signings than lets have him and him.

A reality check is essential here. Currently, we have won our first cup in 6 years. We are back in Europe, and after all the Europa league slagging over the years, and doubts over whether or not we want it, the general consensus now is, 'let's be having it'. If we make higher quality signings over the summer, the extra games will be vital to the likes of Adam, Spearing, Carragher and for the love of god Kenny...think of poor DONI!!!!, who i will see as being no more than squad players next season.

Sure the league has gone tit's up, and it sucks, and it's depressing. But It's not the end of the world. It's far from it. We are still at the very beginning of a huge project involving FSG. They will not accept failure, as anyone who as seen the Red Sox project's success.

In order to truly evaluate this season, I ask Liverpool fans to simply write this season off. 4th is gone, but we are on our way back to Wembly for the FA cup semi's. That's our main aim.

The cliché often thrown about is 'would you have been happy if such and such was offered at the start of the season?'

The Carling Cup, FA Cup, keeping Suarez, Reina and Gerrard (all fit and at the club), while qualifying for Europe (obv not what we wanted but still), was offered at the start of the year....I wouldnt see many turning it down.

MonkeyTennis

I agree with this, have you got a newsletter?

SlickRic

rarnes1 wrote: »

Didn't you hear,Camoli signs the players that are a success, Kenny signs the donkeys...

ok, the 2 of them then...

do we trust the 2 of them with a shítload of money?

you can't compensate for Lucas and Gerrard being out for so long. but we had a fúckload of money and wasted it. our cheapest signings were our best.

i'm just uneasy about another transfer window like last summer's, as we only really addressed the LB issue. Skrtel solved the CB issue. Downing hasn't solved any width problem, and Kuyt is still relied on out there. Bellamy can't be relied on for any length of time to be a solution to that problem either. Adam was meant to sort out our dreadful set pieces i reckon, but that hasn't happened. Henderson is what we all thought he would be; potential to be a very good player, but hasn't helped solve any deficiencies bar maybe squad depth at a push.

like Kess said in the superthread, i'd like to think we'll come around to solving these issues this time, but i don't want us buying Victor Moses, Mark Gower or some other "could be" great player for ridiculous prices anymore. if we're going to buy big, buy proven. and if Kenny and Commolli are seen to do that, then I'm happy to sit back and see what happens next season.

i'm just uneasy about it all, that's all.

and by the way, if Kenny stays, has next season, has us top 4 and playing great, i'll be the first to admit i was wrong, and do it happily...but i'm not going to apologise for having huge reservations at the moment. you'd think by the way some go on that to have these huge reservations is completely nuts and has no basis in reality.

That_Guy

Mr Alan wrote: »

This is what mystifies me.

Up until Christmas this year, we were pretty much on course for where we wanted to be.

You're basically saying that 3 bad months justify sacking a manager. I know you're a Newcastle fan & that's kind of how yous have done things in the past, but surely you can't genuinely believe that is the right way to go?

I guess I'm speaking more about off field matters as well as on field matters too. I think his tactics have fallen a bit flat of late and the way he handled the Suarez incident didn't sit well with me but that's another debate for another time.

I don't think he's bought well at all but I like that he's blooded in the young lads.

I don't particularly like when managers are sacked prematurely. But given the money and expectations from the owners it wouldn't surprise me if he was removed as manager. We've a host of that crap in the past. Pardew has been a blessing in disguise not that I agree with Hughton's sacking mind. Same thing could happen for Liverpool.

Maybe not sack him but move him into a coaching role for the youth squad and bring in somebody else as manager.

Reekwind

eldwaro wrote: »

If we make higher quality signings over the summer...

As I see it, this is the crux of the issue. I'm sure that most LFC fans would have happily written this season off as 'transitional', to use the dreaded phrase, if there was promise that the foundations of the 'project' had been laid and that further progress would be made during the summer

Unfortunately I don't see how either of those assumptions can be sustained in the light of Dalglish's disastrous - and I don't feel that that is an exaggeration- transfer business last summer. The players that he's brought in are clearly not the nucleus of a resurgent Liverpool side and their recruitment has dented faith in his ability to improve with the next window. Furthermore, their wages will burden the club for years to come

So the question remains: do you think that Dalglish will "make higher quality signings over the summer" (ignoring the low standards that he's already set) or would the Americans be better off handing control, or at least the purse strings, to someone else?

That_Guy

That_Guy wrote: »

100 million is what has been spent. I'm sure Liverpool have more than that in their coffers.

That's not my point.

Factor in transfers out and wages from deadwood that left and they are probably out sfa.

Torres/babel/Meireles/Poulsen/Benni/Koncheskey....There's the guts of 80m there to mention some of the bigger ones.

People with small brains(pool fans I'm talking about) seem to forget that Liverpool were on the brink of meltdown not too long ago with a debt of 350m or so.

This year was always going to be a transition season. Or do people really expect to jump right back into the top 4 straight away .

Chucky the tree

rarnes1 wrote: »

That's not my point.

Factor in transfers out and wages from deadwood that left and they are probably out sfa.

Torres/babel/Meireles/Poulsen/Benni/Koncheskey....There's the guts of 80m there to mention some of the bigger ones.

People with small brains(pool fans I'm talking about) seem to forget that Liverpool were on the brink of meltdown not too long ago with a debt of 350m or so.

This year was always going to be a transition season. Or do people really expect to jump right back into the top 4 straight away .

No one expected top 4 straight away but I certainly didn't expect inept tactics and team selections for most of the season either.

jank

Got to love these liverpool threads. Got ridiculed for suggesting many of the points made here. Oh how a few weeks make such a difference. I hope liverpool stay with Kenny, from an Arsenal point of view.

Handsome Bob

rarnes1 wrote: »

This year was always going to be a transition season. Or do people really expect to jump right back into the top 4 straight away .

Whatever about paying over the odds, net spend and overly optimistic expectations, looking at our team on paper, there's no reason why we shouldn't have mounted a better Top 4 challenge. There's no two ways about it; our team is underachieving in regards to the league.

Will I Amnt

This argument that keeps popping up about Ferguson not winning anything for a few years is completely irrelevant in this day and age.

Fergie would have been fired out on his ear if it happened today.
The financial cost of failure to a club back then,pales into insignificance to the cost today in regards to salaries that have to be paid and costs in the transfer market.

It's a vicious circle.
The longer Liverpool stay out of that top 4 the worse the situation becomes.

noodler

Civil war.

Orando Broom

steelcityblues wrote: »

Unless you are going to criticise Henry for having some ambition, now? He knows how to run the Red Sox in baseball well, so he's not a total mug. He's certainly not in the same league as Abramovich, when it comes to being an awful owner.

You could honestly not have picked a worse example of good governance!!

In fairness from the outside it appears that it's not Henry's fault directly and he seems to have made inroads to addressing the issues.

Liverpool will get back in again, sooner rather than later.

Things can change very quickly if a decent striker comes in. Look what RVP has done at Arsenal this season for example. An injury to him could have seen Arsenal in Liverpools position or even worse. Plus, there were tons of Arsenal fans calling for Wengers head only a few weeks ago, even getting booed off the pitch.

Just shows how quickly things can change.

It's probably not gone unnoticed that some of the same "fans" calling for Kenny's head are the same folk that were calling for Rafa's head when we were in the CL every year, and not just there making up the numbers, but getting to quarters, semis and finals.

Fickle plastic fans.

ShiverinEskimo

rarnes1 wrote: »

It's probably not gone unnoticed that some of the same "fans" calling for Kenny's head are the same folk that were calling for Rafa's head when we were in the CL every year, and not just there making up the numbers, but getting to quarters, semis and finals.

Fickle plastic fans.

Don't remember too many calling for his head until Liverpool actually slipped out of the top 4 and he then was foolish enough to guarantee 4th.

If anything the long term fans are looking more long term than you in realising Daglish is not the man to get back into the Top 4 given the return for the money he has had at his disposal.

rossie1977

jank wrote: »

Got to love these liverpool threads. Got ridiculed for suggesting many of the points made here.

i think it was more to do with

jank 20-08-2011, 16:34 wrote:

Wengers days are done. What is important now is securing a new manager for the long term.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73922142&postcount=669

SantryRed

rarnes1 wrote: »

It's probably not gone unnoticed that some of the same "fans" calling for Kenny's head are the same folk that were calling for Rafa's head when we were in the CL every year, and not just there making up the numbers, but getting to quarters, semis and finals.

Fickle plastic fans.

:rolleyes:

How are they plastic?

Leiva

rossie1977 wrote: »

i think it was more to do with


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73922142&postcount=669

Well played ... Anyone else smell hippo ?

jank

rossie1977 wrote: »

i think it was more to do with


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73922142&postcount=669

Indeed, there is life in the old boy yet it seems!! I am glad to be proved wrong on that, but I will be proved right with Kenny. Good guy to bring in for a few months to steady the ship, wrong man to build a new team. Most are realizing that now.

jank

mixednuts wrote: »

Well played ... Anyone else smell hippo ?

My position on Kenny has been consistent. so, meh?

Wenger has tested pretty much all Arsenal fans this year. I came to my senses when they went on a good run post the 8-2 drubbing at United. I realised that unless the board changed its way in running the club then Wenger is the only man. I have been consistent on that for the last few months, check out the Arsenal thread if you want.

ShiverinEskimo

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Don't remember too many calling for his head until Liverpool actually slipped out of the top 4 and he then was foolish enough to guarantee 4th.

If anything the long term fans are looking more long term than you in realising Daglish is not the man to get back into the Top 4 given the return for the money he has had at his disposal.

There were plenty. Dig up some old threads if you want.

Are you a pool fan I take it?

ShiverinEskimo

rarnes1 wrote: »

Are you a pool fan I take it?

What does it matter?

ShiverinEskimo

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

What does it matter?

Just asking? You seem quite intrested/obsessed, so I presume you are.

ShiverinEskimo

rarnes1 wrote: »

Just asking? You seem quite intrested/obsessed, so I presume you are.

I'm interested in lots of things. Football happens to be one of them.

ShiverinEskimo

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

I'm interested in lots of things. Football happens to be one of them.

Cool story bro

ShiverinEskimo

rarnes1 wrote: »

Cool story bro

Hey, you asked me. If I'm boring you stop asking me needless questions.

G.K.

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Henderson still must be given time. But Downing has no excuses. He's a seasoned player and he has been a total passenger for Liverpool since he was signed.

Trilla wrote: »

Explain why?

Henderson a prospect. Ok, I don't see it but I'll give you that, he may need time.

Downing? Some serious straw clutching I'm expecting to back that one up

Downing's created a huge number of chances - just because people haven't got on the end of them doesn't make him a passenger. He's also hit the post quite a few times. Also at Villa he didn't really get going to his second season, when he was excellent.

Henderson is intelligent, I've seen him link up with Suarez much better than Adam, Carrol, Kuyt, Spearing etc... He's just patently not a right winger and needs to be a bit more confident to up his interception game - but he is an intelligent footballer with a good pass on him, and has potential to reach a good standard. Not world class, but certainly good enough to be in title-winning squads.

Dalglish must stop playing Adam and Carragher. Carroll needs to buck his ideas up, and Coates/Maxi must be played. Suarez has to play whole games, without Bellamy, Maxi, Henderson, and Gerrard (playing high up) the creativity is limited to Downng who can't do it all by himself when Suarez is taken off.

opr

I really don't understand why you just don't say you're a Man United fan ?

If I asked someone in the pub who they supported and they answered with the below. I would be thinking what a ****ing NOB!

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

I'm interested in lots of things. Football happens to be one of them.

You aren't Liam Neeson and this isn't Taken, ffs :pac:

Opr

Liverpool FC- an obsession for both Liverpool and Man Utd fans :cool:

Nalz

rarnes1 wrote: »

Liverpool FC- an obsession for both Liverpool and Man Utd fans :cool:

no :cool:

ShiverinEskimo

rarnes1 wrote: »

Liverpool FC- an obsession for both Liverpool and Man Utd fans :cool:

Wow. Should I file a restraining order now?

ShiverinEskimo

opr wrote: »

I really don't understand why you just don't say you're a Man United fan ?

If I asked someone in the pub who they supported and they answered with the below. I would be thinking what a ****ing NOB!



You aren't Liam Neeson and this isn't Taken, ffs :pac:

Opr

For the simple reason that he and many others in here are always looking to dismiss posts as the ramblings of a rival fan rather than actually discuss the points raised.

Liverpool lost a 2-0 lead in spectacular style and became current and topical in doing so but all he wanted to know was who I support to see what 'agenda' I might be peddling instead of just taking what I was saying at face value.

Same old in other words.

Trilla

Trilla wrote: »

no :cool:

Not all

ShiverinEskimo

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

For the simple reason that he and many others in here are always looking to dismiss posts as the ramblings of a rival fan rather than actually discuss the points raised.

Liverpool lost a 2-0 lead in spectacular style and became current and topical in doing so but all he wanted to know was who I support to see what 'agenda' I might be peddling instead of just taking what I was saying at face value.

Same old in other words.

It was only a question, I think you read too much into it tbh. Some of the best posters are rival fans on here. There's nobs on all sides.

opr

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

For the simple reason that he and many others in here are always looking to dismiss posts as the ramblings of a rival fan rather than actually discuss the points raised.

Liverpool lost a 2-0 lead in spectacular style and became current and topical in doing so but all he wanted to know was who I support to see what 'agenda' I might be peddling instead of just taking what I was saying at face value.

Same old in other words.

Well in general football fans aren't neutral no matter how much they claim or believe the opposite. I count myself in that boat only I don't claim otherwise.

When discussing things it generally helps to consider in what camp that persons loyalties lie but I take the point you're trying to make.

Opr

ShiverinEskimo

rarnes1 wrote: »

It was only a question, I think you read too much into it tbh. Some of the best posters are rival fans on here. There's nobs on all sides.

Well it's no shock to me that the second you found out I was a united fan suddenly I'm obsessed with Liverpool.

Yawn tbh.