Are Kenny Dalglish and Liverpool Done?

ShiverinEskimo

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Well it's no shock to me that the second you found out I was a united fan suddenly I'm obsessed with Liverpool.

Yawn tbh.

Ok, apologies. I'll leave it here.

Will I Amnt

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

For the simple reason that he and many others in here are always looking to dismiss posts as the ramblings of a rival fan rather than actually discuss the points raised

This times a f**king million.

cambo2008

cambo2008 wrote: »

This times a f**king million.

Definately

Dub13

Won the Carling Cup, SF FA Cup and 7th in the league and we are crap, interesting to see what happens when we are good.

Nalz

G.K. wrote: »

Downing's created a huge number of chances - just because people haven't got on the end of them doesn't make him a passenger. He's also hit the post quite a few times. Also at Villa he didn't really get going to his second season, when he was excellent.

I'll just have to agree to disagree with you on Downing.

ShiverinEskimo

Dub13 wrote: »

Won the Carling Cup, SF FA Cup and 7th in the league and we are crap, interesting to see what happens when we are good.

Yes, but what's it going to take to get there under Dlaglish?

Another 100m? 200m?

Dub13

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Yes, but what's it going to take to get there under Dlaglish?

Another 100m? 200m?

The same amount it will take under any manager.The football is heading in the right direction,we are not Chelsea we do things our way.

ShiverinEskimo

Well it took him a 100m to stay still so far so all the best with that plan.

opr

cambo2008 wrote: »

This times a f**king million.

The problem for me lies in the fact that I think any Liverpool fan would like to think they're a little more clued up and pay attention to LFC more than most rival supporters. It would also generally help if people want a serious answer if they actually went to the trouble of writing something that looks like they have put some thought into the post.

Here has been the cutting incite from most rival fans.

"He has spent £100 ****ing million and they're all donkeys, donkeys!"

Do fans think that Liverpool are oblivious to this fact ? Do they think that we believe the money has been spent well and have been in a coma for most of the season and need this fact pointing out ?

United fans would do well to look at their own history.

Way back in 1989 (some 20 years ago!) Alex spent £13m on new signings as he was "building" a new United team. Liverpool, in the previous 10 years hadnt spent as much. It was his 4th season at the club and as yet he hadn't won a thing.

Paul Ince, Neil Webb, Gary Pallister (record fee for a defender) Mike Phelan and Danny Wallace ALL cost over £1m and in the case of Pallister £2.2m. The combined outlay on new players took Alexs spending to £13m. Not alot now you would say, but just an example of how much money that was back then is the fact that Michael Knighton was on the verge of buying out Martin Edwards and buying the entire club which was priced at £10m for the whole thing.

So looking at that, if Liverpool are valued at £350m that would be say similar to spending £430m on new players in one go today.

At the end of that season, Liverpool where champions, Man United finished 5 points above relegation and Fergie only held onto his job because he managed to win the FA cup.

It bought him time, the following season, 1990-91 his spending went on, he won the cup winners cup, and it bought him more time. 91-92 he won the league cup and finished runners up in the league..his spending continued with Schmichael bought (his 6th GK in 6yrs!!) Denis irwin and Paul Parker....however at the end of that season he was asked by gabriel clarke from ITV for "the match" magazine about his spending:

He was asked why after 6 seasons at old trafford he hadnt won the league yet, and yet had spent twice as money in that period to both Liverpool and Arsenal, and heres what he said:

"When Kenny Dalglish took over at Liverpool he inherited a good team from Joe Fagan, he only had to tinker with his team here and there. he also had a good 3-4 players that where coming through the reserves that where ready for the 1st team. when i arrived at old trafford i had to change the entire squad around. i had to spend big because i was building a team for the future, i had to start anew as so. i had to buy new, young players, players that would be with us for the next 5-7 years. i have overseen a complete overhaul of the playing staff so in doing that you do go through alot of players and money but we have also recouped money as well"

Maybe looking at the above giving a manager a little more than a season and a half to build a squad which over the last number of years has lost its best players in Torres, Mascherano, Alonso etc. Has a declining Gerrard who has spent more time on the treatment table than he has on the field. Lost our best player to suspension form a lengthy ban. Have had what I would describe as our key player in Lucas get ruled out for an entire season through injury. A love for hitting the post, bar, keeper which has left us with a chance conversion rate which defies belief, the worst in the whole league!!!!

We all don't like the idea of becoming like spoilt, sky, ADD children who won't give anyone time to build something. Isn't that what a manager needs ? It has been a steep learning curve but no one will know more than Kenny things haven't been good enough. Kenny has made mistakes but he deserves time and support from the Liverpool fans to try and put those right. He will certainly get that from me if he's Liverpool manager next season.

Opr

Dub13

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Well it took him a 100m to stay still so far so all the best with that plan.

For years we were shopping in the bargain basement,now we can push the boat out a bit.I don't know why this bothers fans of other clubs so much.

Good post Opr

ShiverinEskimo

Dub13 wrote: »

For years we were shopping in the bargain basement,now we can push the boat out a bit.I don't know why this bothers fans of other clubs so much.

Because it's topical, current and not an exclusive discussion restricted to Liverpool fans.

Will I Amnt

opr wrote: »

The problem for me lies in the fact that I think any Liverpool fan would like to think they're a little more clued up and pay attention to LFC more than most rival supporters. It would also generally help if people want a serious answer if they actually went to the trouble of writing something that looks like they have put some thought into the post

But the thing is opr,once the allegiances of a fan are known,everything is taken as a dig or some kind of agenda is expected.
I've often made innocent,debatable and even complimentary posts about Liverpool that automatically result in a barrage of defensive pissed off comments because it's coming from a United fan.

To be honest they bring out the worst in me because I can't help but get petty when others do.I never intentionally try to piss anybody off but I often end up doing so because people assume that's what I'm trying to do and retaliate on the defensive straight away.

cambo2008

cambo2008 wrote: »

But the thing is opr,once the allegiances of a fan are known,everything is taken as a dig or some kind of agenda is expected.
I've often made innocent,debatable and even complimentary posts about Liverpool that automatically result in a barrage of defensive pissed off comments because it's coming from a United fan.

To be honest they bring out the worst in me because I can't help but get petty when others do.I never intentionally try to piss anybody off but I often end up doing so because people assume that's what I'm trying to do and retaliate on the defensive straight away.

Always someone else's fault hey

I'd probably ask myself if I was you is, how come it doesn't happen all utd fans in the pool thread then?

St.Spodo

I think players with big reputations, namely Carroll, Suarez, Downing and Adam, have let down the club by not offering anything like what should be demanded from their respective price tags. There are many clubs that would've bought Suarez for £23 million, for example. It's not Dalglish's fault Suarez forgot how to put the ball in the net.

Will I Amnt

rarnes1 wrote: »

Always someone else's fault hey

I'd probably ask myself if I was you is, how come it doesn't happen all utd fans in the pool thread then?

There it is again,I'm only trying to explain something here.
I've already said I get petty when others do and I think you will find I'm never the instigator,as I said I've no intentions to go and piss people off.

When I started posting in the soccer forum you were a decent poster.
Over time you have become one of the most petty and bitter in here.
Always first on the scene to stick the boot in when United,Arsenal,Chelsea etc get a bad result.
You might want to look at your own posting style before you start criticizing others.

cambo2008

cambo2008 wrote: »

There it is again,I'm only trying to explain something here.
I've already said I get petty when others do and I think you will find I'm never the instigator,as I said I've no intentions to go and piss people off.

When I started posting in the soccer forum you were a decent poster.
Over time you have become one of the most petty and bitter in here.
Always first on the scene to stick the boot in when United,Arsenal,Chelsea etc get a bad result.
You might want to look at your own posting style before you start criticizing others.

I'm far from bitter but thanks for the insults anyway.

Luap

If you told me we were going to miss out on the Champions League again, but win the League Cup and F.A Cup Semi- Final at least. I would of easily taken that offer.

Dub13

Maloney_o9 wrote: »

If you told me we were going to miss out on the Champions League again, but win the League Cup and F.A Cup Semi- Final at least. I would of easily taken that offer.

Thats the right idea,we are in the business of winning trophy's.I think some of the modern fans forget this and just think the CL is the only show in town.Well its not.

Maloney_o9

Maloney_o9 wrote: »

If you told me we were going to miss out on the Champions League again, but win the League Cup and F.A Cup Semi- Final at least. I would of easily taken that offer.

Can't really argue with that tbh.

Oranage2

Dub13 wrote: »

Thats the right idea,we are in the business of winning trophy's.I think some of the modern fans forget this and just think the CL is the only show in town.Well its not.

Ah yes, why bother playing against the Milans and Madrids of this world when you can play the likes of Peterborough and Cardiff :rolleyes:

redzerdrog

The same set of "fans" that are telling us kenny should go are the ones that wanted us to stick by woy

Wonder why that is

Dub13

Oranage2 wrote: »

Ah yes, why bother playing against the Milans and Madrids of this world when you can play the likes of Peterborough and Cardiff :rolleyes:

I am not saying don't aim for it but if we win a couple of cups on the way and miss out its not necessarily the end for the world.We are back winning trophy's,the CL will come in time but if these new modern fans had there way Kenny would not get the time.

Oranage2

Oranage2 wrote: »

Ah yes, why bother playing against the Milans and Madrids of this world when you can play the likes of Peterborough and Cardiff :rolleyes:

You have to start somewhere. There's only 2 possible trophies Liverpool could win this year and we've won one and are in the semi of the other.

Funnily enough,we beat united,city and chelsea along the way so it wasn't all easy..

Oranage2

rarnes1 wrote: »

You have to start somewhere. There's only 2 possible trophies Liverpool could win this year and we've won one and are in the semi of the other.

Funnily enough,we beat united,city and chelsea along the way so it wasn't all easy..

Dub13 wrote: »

I am not saying don't aim for it but if we win a couple of cups on the way and miss out its not necessarily the end for the world.We are back winning trophy's,the CL will come in time but if these new modern fans had there way Kenny would not get the time.

I kind of agree.

Managers should be given time. But the money Kenny spent and the players he brought in IMO is a sackable offense, TBH it should have never been allowed. None of the players(bar one or 2) he bought are champions league standard and thats why Liverpool arent competing for the champions league spot, it's just that simple.

Dub13

Oranage2 wrote: »

Managers should be given time. But the money Kenny spent and the players he brought in IMO is a sackable offense, TBH it should have never been allowed. None of the players(bar one or 2) he bought are champions league standard and thats why Liverpool arent competing for the champions league spot, it's just that simple.

No its not that simple,just because you want CL players does not mean you will get them.Also a good chunk of the players are not preforming for whatever reason so its hard to tell how good they can/will be.

Kenny does not have fully control over the transfer policy so I presume you also want a clear out of the people over him..?If we went down this road do you think next season we would be in with a better shot at a CL spot..?

Oranage2

Dub13 wrote: »

No its not that simple,just because you want CL players does not mean you will get them.Also a good chunk of the players are not preforming for whatever reason so its hard to tell how good they can/will be.

Kenny does not have fully control over the transfer policy so I presume you also want a clear out of the people over him..?If we went down this road do you think next season we would be in with a better shot at a CL spot..?

Yes, whoever was responsible for Carroll and Downing should have their head's on spikes.

Crazy buys for crazy money.

I'll admit that Pool are playing slightly better football, I wouldnt expect them to automatically get top 4 in the first season but I would expect some sort of promise and that simply hasnt happened!

I can guarantee pool wont get top 4 next year.

redzerdrog

Oranage2 wrote: »

I can guarantee pool wont get top 4 next year.

Seen as its guaranteed how about offering odds then?

100/1 on pool finishing top 4 seen as you are gauranteeing that they wont?

bucketybuck

opr wrote: »

Paul Ince, Neil Webb, Gary Pallister (record fee for a defender) Mike Phelan and Danny Wallace .../...his spending continued with Schmichael bought (his 6th GK in 6yrs!!) Denis irwin and Paul Parker....Opr

Do you think your point stands up when you compare the actual players bought? Yes Fergie spent money at Utd, but he spent it well. Dalglish hasnt spent well at all.

Fergie bought Ince, Pallister, Schmicheal, and Irwin, along with England Internationals Webb and Parker.

Daglish bought Carroll, Adam, Downing, Enrique and Bellamy.

Here is a question for Liverpool fans. Dalgish was successful in his first stint as manager, but who did he buy? Did he bring in players, or was Fergie correct in stating that he already had the players at the club?

redzerdrog

dalglish bought players like barnes, houghton, aldridge and beardsley and turned them into one of the greatest teams we have seen.

Dub13

Also Fergie was forever braking the transfer record back then.

redzerdrog

redzerdrog wrote: »

dalglish bought players like barnes, houghton, aldridge and beardsley and turned them into one of the greatest teams we have seen.

Maybe they should give him control of transfers

The Chessplayer

Dub13 wrote: »

No its not that simple,just because you want CL players does not mean you will get them.Also a good chunk of the players are not preforming for whatever reason so its hard to tell how good they can/will be.

Kenny does not have fully control over the transfer policy so I presume you also want a clear out of the people over him..?If we went down this road do you think next season we would be in with a better shot at a CL spot..?

This is a fair comment. We're obviously not collecting enough points but realitically finishing ahead of Arsenal or Spurs was always going to be a challenge. We should be ahead of Newcastle of course but your wealth/expenditure generally reflects the league position.

For all the loopers out there, you have to remember the following:
Utd, City and Chelsea are more or less guaranteed CL football every year.
The 4th spot is between us, Arsenal and Spurs.

QPR was a freak result, but I'll be happy if we finish above Newcastle, preferably on the back of a string of good results. Add a couple of players in the summer and we could be back in business.

If we had beaten QPR yesterday, the papers would've been gushing over Kenny.

opr

bucketybuck wrote: »

Do you think your point stands up when you compare the actual players bought? Yes Fergie spent money at Utd, but he spent it well. Dalglish hasnt spent well at all.

Fergie bought Ince, Pallister, Schmicheal, and Irwin, along with England Internationals Webb and Parker.

Those are the ones that worked out over the long term plenty of others didn't. I am sure plenty of people when the club narrowly avoided relegation weren't lauding the signing of many of those players.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Daglish bought Carroll, Adam, Downing, Enrique and Bellamy.

You left out possibly our best signing Suarez ? I would consider Enrique/Bellamy to have been very good signings. Adam should have been used as a squad player which at £6m I would have considered a decent signing but the injury to Lucas has meant him playing far more often that he should. Downing was a poor buy for the money but he has largely under performed this season which hasn't been helped by players who can't seem to finish.

The elephant in the room really is Andy Carroll which tilts the whole thing to look much much worse than it should. If we had bought Llorente instead I think things all round would look much much better. Hasn't every manager had a fair share of stinkers for huge money in the transfer market ? The nature of the Torres transfer didn't help.

The other point to make is that Kenny has sold to buy which makes it hard to create a squad in your first season.

Torres - £50m (oops )
Meireles - £11m
Babel - £6m
Mavinga - £1m
Insua - £1m
Aquilani - £6m (Needs to play a few more games and automatically is bought by AC)
Ayala - £1m
Ngog - £4m

Also we pretty much gutted the team in terms of squad players to reduce the wage bill.

Insua, Konchesky, Jovanovic, ElZhar, Kyrgiakos, Ince, Poulsen, Pacheco and Cole were either moved on permanently or on loan.

I think what we have been doing is rebuilding rather than building. An actual net cash injection in the summer to actually start building will hopefully happen.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Here is a question for Liverpool fans. Dalgish was successful in his first stint as manager, but who did he buy? Did he bring in players, or was Fergie correct in stating that he already had the players at the club?

You might have heard of a few of these.

John Barnes
Peter Beardsley
Ian Rush
Ray Houghton
John Aldridge

I have been very critical of him at times for various reasons this season but I recognise the need for some patience and time to be afforded to a manager.

Opr

You forgot Torres 50m

Oranage2

redzerdrog wrote: »

Seen as its guaranteed how about offering odds then?

100/1 on pool finishing top 4 seen as you are gauranteeing that they wont?

3/1 max bet 100€ - I'll give your money to charity too when I win - YOu can pick the Charity.

bucketybuck

opr wrote: »

You left out possibly our best signing Suarez ?

As I said earlier, I think Suarez is horribly overrated/under-critised. Six league goals all season is a horrible return for what is supposed to be a marquee forward. I won't even mention how hard I laughed when somebody upthread tried to say he wasnt actually a striker. News to me that one.

As for the list of players Dalglish bought, I have of course heard of Barnes, Rush, Beardsley et al, some fantastic players. I just genuinely did not know who bought who around that time period (I was only a nipper then).

PFL

opr wrote: »

The problem for me lies in the fact that I think any Liverpool fan would like to think they're a little more clued up and pay attention to LFC more than most rival supporters. It would also generally help if people want a serious answer if they actually went to the trouble of writing something that looks like they have put some thought into the post.

Here has been the cutting incite from most rival fans.

"He has spent £100 ****ing million and they're all donkeys, donkeys!"

Do fans think that Liverpool are oblivious to this fact ? Do they think that we believe the money has been spent well and have been in a coma for most of the season and need this fact pointing out ?

United fans would do well to look at their own history.



Maybe looking at the above giving a manager a little more than a season and a half to build a squad which over the last number of years has lost its best players in Torres, Mascherano, Alonso etc. Has a declining Gerrard who has spent more time on the treatment table than he has on the field. Lost our best player to suspension form a lengthy ban. Have had what I would describe as our key player in Lucas get ruled out for an entire season through injury. A love for hitting the post, bar, keeper which has left us with a chance conversion rate which defies belief, the worst in the whole league!!!!

We all don't like the idea of becoming like spoilt, sky, ADD children who won't give anyone time to build something. Isn't that what a manager needs ? It has been a steep learning curve but no one will know more than Kenny things haven't been good enough. Kenny has made mistakes but he deserves time and support from the Liverpool fans to try and put those right. He will certainly get that from me if he's Liverpool manager next season.

Opr

Excellent post, I'm having this argument with my lfc and mufc friends, what happened last night was a freak occurrence as in our defence usually the best all season fell apart.

Calling for a managers head after the overhaul task Kenny has taken on is just stupid and idiotic. Questions remain over some of the new signings but I believe with a couple of strategic additions in the Summer, a lot of people will be eating their words - pool & united fans.

niallo27

Oranage2 wrote: »

3/1 max bet 100€ - I'll give your money to charity too when I win - YOu can pick the Charity.

3/1 what kind of horse**** odds are they, put your money way your mouth or stop talking ****e.

opr

bucketybuck wrote: »

As I said earlier, I think Suarez is horribly overrated/under-critised. Six league goals all season is a horrible return for what is supposed to be a marquee forward. I won't even mention how hard I laughed when somebody upthread tried to say he wasnt actually a striker. News to me that one.

As for the list of players Dalglish bought, I have of course heard of Barnes, Rush, Beardsley et al, some fantastic players. I just genuinely did not know who bought who around that time period (I was only a nipper then).

Well I have a completely different view on that. He deserves to get criticised for trying the flamboyant far too often but it could be said he is oftened forced due to lack of options. His chance conversion stats are so bad because generally he creates so many chances for himself jinking past two or three players having to fire shots off balance.

My differing view comes from the fact we kitted out a team for a Carroll type player as a central striker but instead Suarez has been left playing as a central striker in a team not suited to him. Watch him play for a team actually built around him like Uruguay and tell me he isn't a special player.

I have been banging on about it for some time but the priority in the summer should be building a team around him. If that happens in the summer then Liverpool and Kenny have a shot next year of turning things around.

Opr

Oranage2

Humour me, what do you suggest?

niallo27

Oranage2 wrote: »

I can guarantee pool wont get top 4 next year.

Oranage2 wrote: »

3/1 max bet 100€ - I'll give your money to charity too when I win - YOu can pick the Charity.

3/1 is shocking value if you are so sure, for a guarantee like that you would want to be offering around 10s.

Hannibal

bucketybuck wrote: »

Do you think your point stands up when you compare the actual players bought? Yes Fergie spent money at Utd, but he spent it well. Dalglish hasnt spent well at all.

Fergie bought Ince, Pallister, Schmicheal, and Irwin, along with England Internationals Webb and Parker.

Daglish bought Carroll, Adam, Downing, Enrique and Bellamy.

Here is a question for Liverpool fans. Dalgish was successful in his first stint as manager, but who did he buy? Did he bring in players, or was Fergie correct in stating that he already had the players at the club?

Absolute nonsense.

Dalglish was Liverpool manager for 5 and a half yearsand won the league 3 times and left us when we were top in Feb 91.

highlights of his spending included:
Ian Rush £2.8m
Peter Beardsley £1.9m
John Barnes £900k
Ray Houghton £825k
John Aldridge £750k
Glenn Hysen £600k
Steve McMahon £350k
Jamie Redknapp £350k
Steve Staunton £20k

he also moved on Phil Thompson, Phil Neal, Alan Kennedy and Sammy Lee.

his major mistake in this spell as Liverpool manager is continuing to play Charlie Adam and Jay Spearing in centre midfield while it's obvious they are simply just not good enough. This is compounded by the fact he allowed Aquilani to leave on loan to AC Milan and Meireles to Chelsea leaving us relying on the fitness of Gerrard and Lucas for a strong midfield.

he plays Gerrard too deep, Rafa got the best out of Gerrard by playing him practically as a forward where he could give 20 goals a season while not having to be stifled with defensive responsibilities.

Our best signings in recent years have been by looking abroad and at foreign players rather than expensive English players, think of Reina, Agger, Arbeloa, Skrtel, Enrique, Alonso, Lucas, Sissoko, Hamann, Mascherano, Garcia, Kuyt, Suarez, Torres etc then compare their fees to the likes of Johnson, Henderson, Downing, Keane, Carroll or even players in similar positions and you see that buying English is not the way forward. There's better bargains and more quality to be had in Spain, Germany, Holland etc

opr

Oranage2 wrote: »

Humour me, what do you suggest?

Humour you ? :pac: Christ aren't you a special one!

Opr

As it's a dead cert, I'll have 20 @ 10/1

J. Marston

Dead cert? Is that sarcasm? It's hard to pick up over the internets.

ShamoBuc

J. Marston wrote: »

Dead cert? Is that sarcasm? It's hard to pick up over the internets.

Oranage2 wrote: »

I can guarantee pool wont get top 4 next year.

Sarcasm me thinks;)

fullstop

rarnes1 wrote: »

As it's a dead cert, I'll have 20 @ 10/1

Why don't you waste your €20 on betfair instead, you'll get 28/1

willmunny1990

rarnes1 wrote: »

As it's a dead cert, I'll have 20 @ 10/1

How about a little bet over soccer access?

i say Dalglish will never achieve a fourth place (or higher) finish under his current spell as manager.

If he leaves and didn't get pool into the top 4, you never post in the soccer forum again.

If pool qualify for the champions league under dalglish, same applies to me. I'll never post here again.


Who's on for it? Time to put this blind faith to the test.

Chucky the tree

bucketybuck wrote: »

As I said earlier, I think Suarez is horribly overrated/under-critised. Six league goals all season is a horrible return for what is supposed to be a marquee forward. I won't even mention how hard I laughed when somebody upthread tried to say he wasnt actually a striker. News to me that one.

As for the list of players Dalglish bought, I have of course heard of Barnes, Rush, Beardsley et al, some fantastic players. I just genuinely did not know who bought who around that time period (I was only a nipper then).

That was me. He's not a striker, he is a forward. There is a difference.