Question about the TV Licence fine

Thoree

Afternoon all, sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong section! I'd like to pick yer collective brains if I may?

Five weeks ago a tv licence inspector and his sidekick called to my door, telling me that their records show no licence currently registered to my address. I explained that I had only moved in to the house just before Christmas after a family member moved out and that we had never discussed the licence. There is an aerial on the roof and a satellite dish on the wall, and at the time of speaking to the licence inspector I thought I required a licence for these. So I told him I would get one asap and asked how to go about getting one, he gave me a couple of options, wrote a reference number on one of those receipt book things and gave me a copy. We said our goodbyes, I went back into the house and threw the docs to one side.

Several days later I was speaking with some friends over a few jars, I was doing a little bit of b!tching about my views on RTÉ etc, and I told them of the call from the inspector. More than one of them told me that I did not require a tv licence as I do not own a tv (this is true, I use a 28" pc monitor for watching movie, using xbox etc), I explained about the sat dish but they were adament I did not legally need to have one. So after an hour or so on the net checking on this I found them to be correct, even though I have equipment on the house I still have no way of receiving the wireless signal, no tv tuner or decoder built into my monitor! I emailed my local Licence Records Office straight away informing them of my situation (I did mention I had a couple of jars right? I may have shared some of my views on the fee and RTÉ in that email....), anyways next day I get a reply asking my to give them full name and address details so they could update the records, which I promptly did......

Upon checking the post today I discover a warning letter from An Post, stating that I have only 5 days to get a tv licence before legal proceedings are issued against me. :eek: After spending most of the day trying to get through by phone to the local office I finally get an answer from a young fella that sounded terribly uninterested in my predicament. I explained it all again to him and he put me on hold while he conferred with an inspector. When he came back he asked "Did the inspector ask if you owned a television?", to which I replied no, then he asked "Did he give you a yellow slip of paper?", to which I replied yes (the receipt thingy with the ref)...."Oh, there you are then, that's an admission of owning a television." WHAT! I went on to say that regardless of what happened at the door, the fact remains that I don't own a tv and therefore am not legally obliged to have a licence, and could you please stop the current actions against me he said no. Apparently once that piece of paper is handed over there can be only one of two outcomes, either you get a licence and their records show that, or you are summonsed to court.

In fairness, that day on the doorstep my ignorance about who exactly needs a licence probably played a big part in creating the situation I now find myself in. Nonetheless I am not a tv owner and therefore not required to pay this fee. I've told the office they can send somebody out whenever they want to check the house to make sure but it didn't make a difference to them. To get me off the phone the guy I was talking to said he'd pass it along to an inspector and get him to call me, I asked when that would be as I only have five days according to the letter he replied "Ah, it'll be a couple of days anyway."

What do I do peeps? Hand over 160 euro's of money that could and should be spent on other bills, or fight the power?

Cabaal

Just to clarify,

Do you have ANY devices in your premises with a TV tuner?

Tv, satellite receiver, VCR, dvd player that records from tv, tv tuner in your PC...anything like this?
Doesn't matter if you use the tuner or not,

cookie1977

You do not require a television licence to watch television on your computer or mobile phone. However, you do require a licence if the computer is used together with any other apparatus to receive a signal

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/media/tv_licences.html

Thoree

Sorry, I should have clarified that, I have NO devices of any kind that receive any wireless signal (apart from my Wimax broadband hub), so no inbuilt tuners into anything, no tuner add on for my pc etc. What I do have is a pc, an xbox, a dvd player, a wii and a stereo. I do not need a licence to listen to the radio. My pc and xbox are capable of streaming tv online (aertv on pc, sky on xbox) but again I don't need a licence for this as cookie pointed out! From everything I've read and everyone I've asked I'm in the clear until the new system is enacted this year or next. But still An Post reckon that accepting a piece of paper at my front door is an admission of owning a tv without having a licence and therefore I must cough up!

Thanks for taking the time to read my post, and for replying!

Paulw

From all you have posted, you don't need a TV license. But, at this stage, your options are to buy one, or else have your day in court, where you will most likely win.

That's my view at least.

Thoree

Thanks Paul, appreciate the input, I reckon the same thing, I find it incredulous that although legal proceedings haven't even begun yet the process leading up to them can't be stopped! This is a fine display of other peoples licence fee's being needlessly squandered.....

cookie1977

Based solely on what you're telling us I'd agree that you don't need a licence.

Thoree

Yes I realise that you have to take me at my word that what I'm saying is true, but in fairness there's no point in my looking for advice if I'm not being completely truthful, I'd just be wasting my time and yours!

That's the problem Cookie, I believe I don't need a licence either, if I get the money in the next five (really only four now) days I'll probably end up paying it and seeking advice on how to get a refund. Just been checking the finances tho, the esb bill was paid this week, bins have to be paid next week, I don't think I will have the cash for this too. I might pop down to Citizens Information tomorrow and get their view on it, maybe they might know of somewhere or someone that can stop this in its tracks.

As I'm the one this is happening to perhaps my opinion is very biased, but this has a stink of bullying about it, either that or the local records office staff are very lazy or inept. Thanks Cookie!

Cabaal

Based on what your saying it appears you certainly do not need a tv license, however its likely the staff don't believe you and as such can't be arsed to flag your address as such.

I'd tend to agree that contacting Citizens Information is a good step as imho if it was me I wouldn't be giving in on this.

If you don't have a tv you shouldn't be paying this tax in much the same way as if you didn't have a car you wouldn't be expected to pay Motor Tax.

cookie1977

Thoree wrote: »

Yes I realise that you have to take me at my word that what I'm saying is true, but in fairness there's no point in my looking for advice if I'm not being completely truthful, I'd just be wasting my time and yours!

That's the problem Cookie, I believe I don't need a licence either, if I get the money in the next five (really only four now) days I'll probably end up paying it and seeking advice on how to get a refund. Just been checking the finances tho, the esb bill was paid this week, bins have to be paid next week, I don't think I will have the cash for this too. I might pop down to Citizens Information tomorrow and get their view on it, maybe they might know of somewhere or someone that can stop this in its tracks.

As I'm the one this is happening to perhaps my opinion is very biased, but this has a stink of bullying about it, either that or the local records office staff are very lazy or inept. Thanks Cookie!

No worries. And let us know how you get on. Good luck.

ShooterSF

Jeez don't pay if you don't have one. An Post may claim that once you take the slip they can no longer stop their proceedings but a court will happily stop them if you don't own a TV. An Post can make whatever claims it wants about it's process but at the end of the day the law is on your side.

Also and I'm just pulling this from the foggy part of my brain but maybe someone can clarify but doesn't data protection give you a right to have any data held about you rectified if false (in this instance the owning of a TV)?

antoinolachtnai

Situation would normally that you now need to make a statutory declaration.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1926/en/act/pub/0045/sec0007.html#sec7

An Post sent me out a form 15 years ago for this purpose. I have not had much dealings with them since.

I have to say that I found the An Post TV license salespeople rude and discourteous when I asked them to leave my property.

foggy_lad

Thoree wrote: »

Thanks Paul, appreciate the input, I reckon the same thing, I find it incredulous that although legal proceedings haven't even begun yet the process leading up to them can't be stopped! This is a fine display of other peoples licence fee's being needlessly squandered.....

An post licence crowd don't care if you have a television or not, as far as they are concerned every house has a television and will be paying for a licence. All their talk is just that at the moment and you will most likely get several more warnings and red letters and final demands and then threats of court and jail before they decide to take you to court where they will most likely lose if as you say you don't have a tv or any device with an inbuilt tuner capable or receiving the signal.

Ken.

Thoree wrote: »

Yes I realise that you have to take me at my word that what I'm saying is true, but in fairness there's no point in my looking for advice if I'm not being completely truthful, I'd just be wasting my time and yours!

That's the problem Cookie, I believe I don't need a licence either, if I get the money in the next five (really only four now) days I'll probably end up paying it and seeking advice on how to get a refund. Just been checking the finances tho, the esb bill was paid this week, bins have to be paid next week, I don't think I will have the cash for this too. I might pop down to Citizens Information tomorrow and get their view on it, maybe they might know of somewhere or someone that can stop this in its tracks.

As I'm the one this is happening to perhaps my opinion is very biased, but this has a stink of bullying about it, either that or the local records office staff are very lazy or inept. Thanks Cookie!

Do not pay the fee if you have no tv because as mentioned here http://www.moneyguideireland.com/tv-licence-refunds-in-ireland.html

TV Licence Refunds in Ireland

June 27, 2011 | Posted by Money Guide
In Ireland a TV Licence costs €160 a year.
If you move abroad and no longer need an Irish television licence – you will not get a refund of any of the licence fee.
In the UK – they operate a refund system – which applies to people moving abroad, students going back home for the summer or people moving into residential care home.
In Ireland – it seems that this is not possible. A TV licence is for a full year in all cases with no refunds possible. So – someone renewing a licence at the start of a year who then moves abroad in March will have overpaid by €133 which they will not get back
Another example of poor service for Irish residents from our “knowledge economy” government.

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

Thoree

Hello again! Thanks for all the responses guys, I checked in this morning but decided to wait until after I visited the local Citizens Information office to reply back. Met a real live-wire of a CI representative down there, very funny, he was hopping around the office when I told him about this! His advice is to do nothing, at least until An Post decide to push forward with legal proceedings. He then said that as soon as legal documentation comes through make an appointment with the local free legal aid board (apparently I qualify for this as a student). It will take about 5 months to meet with someone from FLA, so if any court dates come up in the meantime I just have to turn up and tell the judge I'm awaiting legal representation and it will be pushed back as many times as necessary for me to have a solicitor in court with me. He also said the burden of proof falls on the TV Licence Records office, but he knew not what proof they would need to provide, I might try and corner the law lecturer in the college to see if she knows of any past cases I could look up. If the only proof they need to show is that I took a piece of paper from them that would be grossly unfair, it wasn't explained at the doorstep, it was just handed over.

I will look into the suggestions posted here; looking into the Data Protection Act and the statutory declaration are top of the list! After considering the comments here and the advice from the CI officer I've decided that I won't be paying, let them do what they wish. What really bugs me is that if court proceedings are initiated against me it will not only be a waste of the local courts time but also a terrible waste of money as the state will end up paying for solicitors on both sides, jaysus if I was in America I might even be awarded a payout for the mental anguish! I'd just like it to be over though, all this is needless and 2 minutes of an inspectors time to look about my house would prove that!

Something the CI officer said to me was very interesting; it has been his experience from dealing with other people in similar situations that An Post take the view that every house that is not registered with them is home to a licence dodger, and anyone who tells them that they don't own a tv is a liar! On the rare occasion that he's actually contacted the local office to deal with them on someones behalf he has found them to be very rude, and that generally they don't allow for the fact that someone may not have a tv in their home.

Anyways I'll wait for the phone call I was promised from the local office and update the thread if anything new comes from that. I'd like to thank ya all again for bothering to read my original post and taking the time to look up info and reply with that and your opinions, it's been very helpful! I'd thank each post but I haven't hit the 25 post quota yet, so thanks!!:)

keithclancy

Good man, well done for persuing it.

In my case I just said "No English" in a Borat style accent and closed the door on the inspector guy.

Let us know how you get on !

Mr. Presentable

Thoree wrote: »

There is an aerial on the roof and a satellite dish on the wall, and at the time of speaking to the licence inspector I thought I required a licence for these. So I told him I would get one asap and asked how to go about getting one, he gave me a couple of options, wrote a reference number on one of those receipt book things and gave me a copy.

To be fair to the inspector, with all of the above it is reasonable to expect there is a tv in the house. And that's what he'll take to Court.

1) Aerial
2) Sat dish
3) "I will get a lic asap"

The Judge will ask you why you have an aerial and dish if you have no tv, why you said you would get a lic if you have no tv.

Thoree

Thanks Keith, will do!

Valid points Mr. Presentable, I do agree that my ignorance of the law had a part to play in this, however the inspector seemed more interested in filling out his forms and telling me when and where to pay than explaining to me what exactly I was paying for.

My response to a judge if he put those questions to me would be:
1)Aeriel - most houses have aeriels, I didn't put it up, I wasn't even born when it was installed, and who bothers to take them down?? An inspection of my aeriel would also show that the lead doesn't actually enter the house anymore, I don't know what happened but it's swinging around like mad up there!
2)Dish - again, most people have these on there houses, previous tenants of houses rarely take them with them when moving.
3)I will get a licence asap - As I said it was not explained that a licence is only needed if I receive a wireless signal, not because I have equipment outside the house.

Also to borrow the car analogy someone else posted, just because I have a driveway outside my house does not mean I own a car!

jor el

The burden of proof will indeed be theirs, and in order to prove you have a TV they will have to gain access to your premises. Unless you allow them in to inspect the inside of the house, they will have to get a court warrant, which will be served by the Gardai, and this will allow them in to inspect for a TV. Once they find no TV inside, they'll have to leave red faced, and there will be no court appearance.

You get several warning letters before any court summons. Ignore them, but keep any and all you receive. Put in writing what you've said here, about how you believed you needed a licence because of the dish and aerial, but that you have no television and therefore will not be getting a licence. Send this to them by registered post, and keep details of the tracking to prove it was delivered. Get a record of the delivery from An Post and keep that too.

The actual wording of the licence requirement is (from the Irish Statute Book)
“ television set ” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus;

This is from the Dept of Communications
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Broadcasting/Frequently+Asked+Questions/Television+Licence+FAQ.htm#6
Q. Do I require a television licence for a computer which can access television-like services (e.g. the RTÉ Player or streaming services) over the Internet?
A. No. So long as the computer is unable to display television channels distributed by conventional television broadcasting networks (i.e cable, satillite, IPTV, analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) e.g. using a television tuner card or similar device, then there is no requirement to hold a television licence.

If you have a TV tuner card in the computer, you need a licence. If not, you don't.


Put all of this information in the letter you send to them, keep a copy for yourself, and use it in court to wipe the floor with them if it ever gets that far.

Del2005

Being devils advocate, with the info from Citizensinfromation

A aerial and a sat dish are capable of receiving a signal.

equipment capable of receiving a television signa

The fact you've not got them connected to anything doesn't absolve you

other equipment is broken and currently unable to receive a signal

Before you go to court I'd be getting the ladder out or else you may be getting fined, but you may need to get one till you remove the items from the premises.

Cabaal

Del2005 wrote: »

Being devils advocate, with the info from Citizensinfromation

A aerial and a sat dish are capable of receiving a signal.

The fact you've not got them connected to anything doesn't absolve you

Thats not correct however,
A ariel or dish are just that, they are cable of receiving a signal but they can't decode the signal so they do not require a tv license.

Hell a coat hanger is also an ariel (I think everyone has used one as such in the past at one stage) that doesn't mean I need a tv license for it

You pay for a device that can decode the signal, not for a piece of wiring that the signal can be received on, if that was the case anyone with any wiring in their house or coat hangers for that matter would need a license as they are "capable" of receiving a signal.

Before you go to court I'd be getting the ladder out or else you may be getting fined, but you may need to get one till you remove the items from the premises.

He's a student so I'm guessing he's renting, he wouldn't have permission to start ripping out wires on the property.

Bottom line is he doesn't have a device that can decode any signals such as a tv, vcr with a tuner, tv capture card, satalite decoder box or any other similar device on his property which is what the license actually covers.

An Post can waste their time and the states money bringing him to court but in all fairness its an awful waste of money, even if they did win good luck to them getting 2k fine back from a student.

Many students and non-students these days don't even bother buying watching tv's so not having one is not all that weird.

Thoree

Yep Del that's why I initially thought I needed a licence at the door that day, as far as I was concerned that's what the inspector was talking about. And it makes sense that when a tv inspector see's both a dish on the outside wall and an aerial on the roof he/she will presume a tv is on the premises. Cabaal is right in what he/she says though, nobody needs a licence to cover those, only for decoding equipment.

As for taking them down, I probably should. I am renting but it's a family home, the original owners passed away a few years ago and with the housing market the way it is nobody is in a rush to buy it, taking either of them down wouldn't be an issue I imagine. If it did go to court and I lost (hey, anything is possible in this country these days) I would pay up the fine, it would hurt like hell but I'd pay it. Anyways I'm kinda hoping that if they do take this further it'll drag on long enough that the new system of licencing is enacted, I will be required to pay that and I'll have no problem paying that. Unless they sting me for a grand or two in the meantime. I'd have to think on that.

sandin

Its quite simple. You write to them and explain the situation and you enclose a declaration stating that you do not have a device capable of receiving TV signals on the premises and that it can be inspected at any time.

That will be the end of it....

...until next year when it changes to a broadcast licence.

GerardKeating

Thoree wrote: »

Afternoon all, sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong section! I'd like to pick yer collective brains if I may?

Five weeks ago a tv licence inspector and his sidekick called to my door, telling me that their records show no licence currently registered to my address. I explained that I had only moved in to the house just before Christmas after a family member moved out and that we had never discussed the licence. There is an aerial on the roof and a satellite dish on the wall, and at the time of speaking to the licence inspector I thought I required a licence for these. So I told him I would get one asap and asked how to go about getting one, he gave me a couple of options, wrote a reference number on one of those receipt book things and gave me a copy. We said our goodbyes, I went back into the house and threw the docs to one side.

Several days later I was speaking with some friends over a few jars, I was doing a little bit of b!tching about my views on RTÉ etc, and I told them of the call from the inspector. More than one of them told me that I did not require a tv licence as I do not own a tv (this is true, I use a 28" pc monitor for watching movie, using xbox etc), I explained about the sat dish but they were adament I did not legally need to have one. So after an hour or so on the net checking on this I found them to be correct, even though I have equipment on the house I still have no way of receiving the wireless signal, no tv tuner or decoder built into my monitor! I emailed my local Licence Records Office straight away informing them of my situation (I did mention I had a couple of jars right? I may have shared some of my views on the fee and RTÉ in that email....), anyways next day I get a reply asking my to give them full name and address details so they could update the records, which I promptly did......

Upon checking the post today I discover a warning letter from An Post, stating that I have only 5 days to get a tv licence before legal proceedings are issued against me. :eek: After spending most of the day trying to get through by phone to the local office I finally get an answer from a young fella that sounded terribly uninterested in my predicament. I explained it all again to him and he put me on hold while he conferred with an inspector. When he came back he asked "Did the inspector ask if you owned a television?", to which I replied no, then he asked "Did he give you a yellow slip of paper?", to which I replied yes (the receipt thingy with the ref)...."Oh, there you are then, that's an admission of owning a television." WHAT! I went on to say that regardless of what happened at the door, the fact remains that I don't own a tv and therefore am not legally obliged to have a licence, and could you please stop the current actions against me he said no. Apparently once that piece of paper is handed over there can be only one of two outcomes, either you get a licence and their records show that, or you are summonsed to court.

In fairness, that day on the doorstep my ignorance about who exactly needs a licence probably played a big part in creating the situation I now find myself in. Nonetheless I am not a tv owner and therefore not required to pay this fee. I've told the office they can send somebody out whenever they want to check the house to make sure but it didn't make a difference to them. To get me off the phone the guy I was talking to said he'd pass it along to an inspector and get him to call me, I asked when that would be as I only have five days according to the letter he replied "Ah, it'll be a couple of days anyway."

What do I do peeps? Hand over 160 euro's of money that could and should be spent on other bills, or fight the power?

If there is an aerial on the roof, you need a licence.

jor el

GerardKeating wrote: »

If there is an aerial on the roof, you need a licence.

No you don't. The law states specifically that it must be capable of receiving and displaying a television broadcast. Read the link to the statute book I posted above. Paraphrasing by Citizens Information isn't the law, it's just useful information. The law changed a few years back.

Our man in Havana

Aerials can be used for non TV applications such as amateur radio. Most inspectors are rather ignorant of the laws they are supposed to know about.

To get a conviction, Columbo will need to see a TV or get you to admit to having one.

BrianD

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Aerials can be used for non TV applications such as amateur radio. Most inspectors are rather ignorant of the laws they are supposed to know about.

To get a conviction, Columbo will need to see a TV or get you to admit to having one.

Our man. This is like groundhog day.

TV aerial is pretty obvious to anybody as to what it is.

The problem here is not the presence of aerials of dishes is simply that the OP admitted to having a TV in a declaration and so a process started.

The solution is redact this declaration and make a correct statement. It's quite possible that the only chance to do this will be in court. However, I doubt if anybody including the TV licence want this expense.

Thoree

Just a quick update on this - just received a call from the inspector who called to the door, he's standing firm on the line that taking the slip of paper is as good as an admission as they only issue those after an admission of owning the relevant equipment without having a tv licence. I kept telling him that I never admitted I owned a tv at the door that day, that I thought I needed a licence for the dish and aerial. He tried arguing that a person does need a licence for said equipment, and that I should have told him I didn't have a television upon which he would have asked to gain entry to see the access points of the cables from the equipment. I told him I wouldn't have an issue with that at all. Anyways long story short, he still wants me to get a licence but has asked me to send him the serial number of the monitor I use to make sure it's exempt, so for now he's putting a stay on the process. The impression I got from him on the phone was that he's sick and tired of dealing with people about these matters, it's little wonder he just assumes everyone who doesn't own a tv is trying to pull the wool over his eyes. I kinda felt sorry for him, I guess he thinks he's doing me a favour by allowing me this opportunity to show what I use, I didn't have the heart to point out he was the one who started the ball rolling in the first place!

Anyways, hopefully this will be the end of it now, if anything else happens I'll post back, but for now thanks again to all who weighed in with their opinions and advice! It was a great help! See you all elsewhere on boards in the meantime!

Ganondorf

I have to say the way these guys turn up and demand to know if you have a TV in the house is so outrageous would be like me calling around their house and asking if they have a device I personally sold and had a license fee for, RTE and the TV license are so out of touch with reality now it's shocking that some of their idiot inspectors haven't insisted on looking inside peoples private properties and gone missing.

I've not had direct interaction with them in around 18months since I had a similar situation, rented accommodation, dish on the front of the house, no interest in the world in allowing some retard from the post office stomp around in my house looking for "equipment as small as a tv tuner for the computer" as he put it, but yeah the way I handled it was got them to go talk to sky who had installed the dish and confirm it was not in use since the prev tenant left then after a brief enough chat with a twat on the phone from them that this is the 21th century and not everyone lives in black and white and sits down around a tv at night did they finally stop dropping those **** things in the letter box about how my house is breaking the law by not watching RTE.

sandin

Ganondorf wrote: »

I have to say the way these guys turn up and demand to know if you have a TV in the house is so outrageous would be like me calling around their house and asking if they have a device I personally sold and had a license fee for, RTE and the TV license are so out of touch with reality now it's shocking that some of their idiot inspectors haven't insisted on looking inside peoples private properties and gone missing.

I've not had direct interaction with them in around 18months since I had a similar situation, rented accommodation, dish on the front of the house, no interest in the world in allowing some retard from the post office stomp around in my house looking for "equipment as small as a tv tuner for the computer" as he put it, but yeah the way I handled it was got them to go talk to sky who had installed the dish and confirm it was not in use since the prev tenant left then after a brief enough chat with a twat on the phone from them that this is the 21th century and not everyone lives in black and white and sits down around a tv at night did they finally stop dropping those **** things in the letter box about how my house is breaking the law by not watching RTE.

But if the person who has a TV and who keeps dodging the licence didn't give these guys so much hassle, they would have a different approach.

There are too many lying spongers out there that are causing this behaviour, its they to whom you need to direct your venom.