Final Fantasy

Retr0gamer

Xevkin wrote: »

Anyone else feel that FFXII is becoming stronger in hindsight?

Definitely not. Seems like the failed unfinished experiment it always was and with Xenoblade on the Wii showing what the game should have been it feels like it even more so.

In one way though I did think that the battle system was awful and completely without merit but Xenoblade did show that it had a lot of potential just the execution was way off.

Mindkiller

FFXII had a great combat system. People complain that the game played itself but in reality it gave you more control over combat than any FF before or after it. You can stop combat at any time, switch party leaders at will, mess about with AI commands, position your mages so that they don't take as much damage etc.

The zodiac edition is great as well in that it forces you to send each member down a specific path so you can't just stick with the same three members. You need to formulate actual strategies, rather than just spam big spells and heal. You have full control over guest members as well.

The only thing I dislike about it is that you seem to spend a ton of time out in the wilderness while the 'real' story is going on in Arcadia. It doesn't seem like your actions mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. The inclusion of Vaan and Penelo didn't bother me so much. You're not forced to play as them (except in the opening sections). FFVI and VII had a metric ton of crap characters as well. And I don't think anyone has any fond memories of Amarant or Quina in FFIX

cloud493

I loved FF12! I liked the fact you could kinda see the big monsters in the distance, but you couldn't kill them(or even fight them) initially, you had to work up to them. And I liked Vaan.

ancapailldorcha

Mindkiller wrote: »

The zodiac edition is great as well in that it forces you to send each member down a specific path so you can't just stick with the same three members. You need to formulate actual strategies, rather than just spam big spells and heal. You have full control over guest members as well.

Zodiac edition? What's this?

Retr0gamer

Mindkiller wrote: »

FFXII had a great combat system. People complain that the game played itself but in reality it gave you more control over combat than any FF before or after it. You can stop combat at any time, switch party leaders at will, mess about with AI commands, position your mages so that they don't take as much damage etc.

You could but it made so little difference why bother? Once you had a gambit set up that worked in a region you kept it and it got dull.

Mindkiller

If you're fighting wolves and cactaurs and other small stuff then sure, you really only need to rely on one gambit. Kind of like how in other FF titles you just need one or two techniques to get rid of the weak monsters. I don't see the difference. You can beat FFVIII with just normal attacks. You can beat FFVI with just Tools, Sabin's Blitz and later on Ultima.

In any event, the more time you spend in a region the more likely you'll be to come across a gambit setup better than the one you have. It's only if you're grossly overleveled that the game becomes a bore. But that can be said about almost any FF.

Zodiac Edition:
The Zodiac Job System – There are now 12 License Boards, each one representing a job. Once a character chooses a job however, they are stuck with it throughout the entire game. Isolated licenses can be accessed by unlocking Espers and Quickenings.

Trial Mode – The party must fight through 100 stages, each one containing stronger monsters. Completing this mode unlocks New Game+: Weak Mode.

Controllable Guests – Guest characters can now be controlled, and their gambits can be edited. Their equipment cannot be removed.

Controllable Espers – Espers can now be controlled once summoned, and their gambits can be edited. The player can use their ultimate attack at will.

Speed Boost – Pressing the L1 button speeds up the game, making getting around easier. The music still plays at normal speed.

Gambit Changes – There are 16 new gambits. All the gambits can be bought upon leaving Barheim Passage. (The best change imo. You get to experience the gambit system in its entirety almost right from the offset)

Item Changes – New items have been added, and some of their effects have been slightly changed.

Enemy Changes – Enemies have been changed slightly, plus new enemies have been added. A battle against all five Judge Magisters is also included. (Way harder than Yiazmat if anyone's interested.)

Magick Changes – Water and Watera are renamed to Aqua and Aquara. Many spells have been re-categorized; Bravery and Faith are now White Magick for example. Cure and all tier 1 Black Magick elemental spells have an area of effect (same as their higher tier counterpart) instead of targeting only 1 unit. Not all magick can be bought, and some must be found in treasure chests.

Equipment Changes – New weapons have been added, like the Excalipoor, while others have been slightly changed. Armor and accessories have also been slightly changed. Some weapons have different elemental alignments.

Shop Listings – Some shops have had their inventory changed.

Hunt Reward Changes - Rewards for defeating Marks have slightly changed.

Mist Knack (Quickening) Changes – Mist knacks no longer take up MP. Instead, they have their own Mist gauge.

MP Changes – Since Mist Knacks do not use MP now, obtaining Mist Knacks does not increase MP. Instead, characters simply get more MP as they level up. Max MP is determined by the character's job.

New Game+ – Two New Game+ modes are available. Strong Mode, where all characters begin at level 90, and Weak Mode, where all characters begin at level 1 and never level up. Nothing carries over into these new save files.

Treasure Re-spawns – Treasures pots now respawn by just moving one screen away.

Treasure Item Changes - Some items inside coffers have been switched around, added, or removed.

Break Damage Limit – There is no damage limit anymore. If a character does more than 9,999 damage, the game will show it. Against weak enemies, it is possible to achieve over 100,000 HP of damage with a single attack. This gives the strongest magick spells greater potency to rival melee attack with high hit combo.

ancapailldorcha

I've never heard of this Zodiac edition before. Sounds like it has a lot of useful tweaks.

Retr0gamer

Mindkiller wrote: »

If you're fighting wolves and cactaurs and other small stuff then sure, you really only need to rely on one gambit. Kind of like how in other FF titles you just need one or two techniques to get rid of the weak monsters. I don't see the difference. You can beat FFVIII with just normal attacks. You can beat FFVI with just Tools, Sabin's Blitz and later on Ultima.

In any event, the more time you spend in a region the more likely you'll be to come across a gambit setup better than the one you have. It's only if you're grossly overleveled that the game becomes a bore. But that can be said about almost any FF.

I was a bit underlevelled in FFXII actually and found it a bore as well. Running in circles to recharge MP was a joke and even when you did get Osmos it slowed battles down so much you were better off without it.

I found the bigger enemies suffered from a different problem. The gambit system completely broke down for these enemies and bosses but there was one tactic that worked for every boss, buff up and use esuna when the boss did his nasty multiple status effect attack. Almost everyone of them had the same pattern.

Mindkiller

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I was a bit underlevelled in FFXII actually and found it a bore as well. Running in circles to recharge MP was a joke and even when you did get Osmos it slowed battles down so much you were better off without it.

Osmose/Siphon didn't slow battles down for me at all. It was just one extra turn. Another alternative would be to just manually siphon MP from a non-magic using character. Having your entire party cast magic is a bad idea, especially as it clogs up the attack queue on PS2. FFXIII doesn't have this issue.

An even better strategy is just to gambit 'Charge' whenever the mp reaches critical levels. It'll slow down your casting, sure. But you'll still be able to cast magic more or less indefinitely. Either way, both charge and siphon are far more effective than just running around in circles. With the time it takes you to do that you could probably just run off to a save point.

As for just rebuffing and healing for every big boss fight, that just isn't true. There are tons of fights where that won't work. Whereas it would probably be a foolproof strategy in most boss fights in other FFs, other than FFXIII.


(1:57:00)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD8JqBciP5Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QrJmnh4_IM

(Bear in mind that the second guy is lvl 99 when he takes on Omega. He's a ****-ton harder at 'normal' levels.) Also, I don't know why he just doesn't gambit moves like decoy. Works fine that way for me.

ancapailldorcha

Did you have to import that from Japan or did it make it over here?

noodler

Mindkiller wrote: »

Osmose/Siphon didn't slow battles down for me at all. It was just one extra turn. Another alternative would be to just manually siphon MP from a non-magic using character. Having your entire party cast magic is a bad idea, especially as it clogs up the attack queue on PS2. FFXIII doesn't have this issue.

An even better strategy is just to gambit 'Charge' whenever the mp reaches critical levels. It'll slow down your casting, sure. But you'll still be able to cast magic more or less indefinitely. Either way, both charge and siphon are far more effective than just running around in circles. With the time it takes you to do that you could probably just run off to a save point.

As for just rebuffing and healing for every big boss fight, that just isn't true. There are tons of fights where that won't work. Whereas it would probably be a foolproof strategy in most boss fights in other FFs, other than FFXIII.



(Bear in mind that the second guy is lvl 99 when he takes on Omega. He's a ****-ton harder at 'normal' levels.) Also, I don't know why he just doesn't gambit moves like decoy. Works fine that way for me.

I don't think Retr0 did many of the hunts, but I have to agree with you. Some of the tougher marks were serious challenges.

Mindkiller

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Did you have to import that from Japan or did it make it over here?

You'll need a modded PS2 to play it. You can get a Japanese copy and rip it and patch the ISO. They're a few guides online for that.

I'm confused as to why FFX is getting the HD treatment when FFXII really needs it the most. It holds up a lot better than X, both visually and gameplay-wise. It would be a great excuse to get this version of the game out in Europe and America.

ancapailldorcha

Sounds like a bit of an ordeal.

I'm with you on the HD port. The only thing I didn't like about the game was the grinding you had to do if you wanted the top weapons. The zodiac spear had a set of chests at the start you couldn't open if you wanted it and at the end there was a chest with a 0.1% chance of having it. The gambits made farming enemies a doddle though. X was all about showing what the PS2 could really do whereas XII didn't have to do that. I think porting the International version would be better as it would give people new elements to experience instead of a few crappy trophies.

Xevkin

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Sounds like a bit of an ordeal.

I'm with you on the HD port. The only thing I didn't like about the game was the grinding you had to do if you wanted the top weapons. The zodiac spear had a set of chests at the start you couldn't open if you wanted it and at the end there was a chest with a 0.1% chance of having it. The gambits made farming enemies a doddle though. X was all about showing what the PS2 could really do whereas XII didn't have to do that. I think porting the International version would be better as it would give people new elements to experience instead of a few crappy trophies.

Didn't make XII any less impressive - those environments were expansive and nice to look at, even during loot grinding.

Know if SE are taking that approach with the Vita version of FFX? Would be nice to have a scene skip option (assuming that was in the international edition), and the other bells and whistles that came along with it.

ancapailldorcha

I'd prefer it if they left out the Dark Aeons & Penance. They added nothing to the game and were just a way to extend the lifespan.

Mindkiller

Xevkin wrote: »

Didn't make XII any less impressive - those environments were expansive and nice to look at, even during loot grinding.

Know if SE are taking that approach with the Vita version of FFX? Would be nice to have a scene skip option (assuming that was in the international edition), and the other bells and whistles that came along with it.

The international version is the version we got. Except we also got some lovely big borders and slower gameplay with it. Great, thanks for that Square :rolleyes:

Definitely agree with getting rid of Dark Aeons. They were no fun

ancapailldorcha

I remember going back to Besaid to get the treasure to unlock Anima and getting royally ticked off Dark Valefor was in my way. Memories.

Retr0gamer

noodler wrote: »

I don't think Retr0 did many of the hunts, but I have to agree with you. Some of the tougher marks were serious challenges.

Nope only did a couple of marks. At that stage I was so sick of the game I just wanted it over with and wasn't enjoying it at all. The battle system did work an awful lot better for boss enemies, my main problem was the normal enemies which were just so boring to fight.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I remember going back to Besaid to get the treasure to unlock Anima and getting royally ticked off Dark Valefor was in my way. Memories.

That absolutely ruined the end game for me Such a shame, I'd like to see the Dark Aeons not make an appearance as well or be a little more 'optional' instead of completely blocking access to quests that are much lower level.

IRL_Sinister

Dark Aeons were awesome. Half the enjoyment of a FF is completing it 100%. After FFIX the FFX end-game was the next best and enjoyable. It was long, had a fascinating story and wasn't easy (well, it was after you got to the point of like Dark Bahamut but you get the idea). The only downfall was the fact that once you got to a certain point you could never die . The Tonberry grind was pretty obnoxious too.

ancapailldorcha

I just saw them as being palette swapped Aeons with higher stats. They could have kept them out of the way like the weapons in FFVII. I got quite excited when I realised I could use Anima only to get irritated at Dark Valefor and Shiva in the way. At least they gave Yojimbo Zanmato.

Xevkin

As much as I loved FFX, I never once managed to beat one of the dark aeons . . .. .

Wait, I thought the international edition had the pro sphere grid or whatever it was called? Thought that might have made a replay a bit more interesting; the illusion of freedom of the sphere grid has started to irritate me, looking back.

ancapailldorcha

Xevkin wrote: »

As much as I loved FFX, I never once managed to beat one of the dark aeons . . .. .

Wait, I thought the international edition had the pro sphere grid or whatever it was called? Thought that might have made a replay a bit more interesting; the illusion of freedom of the sphere grid has started to irritate me, looking back.

I'd forgotten about the International Sphere grid. Beating the dark aeons unlocks an even harder boss called Penance. Beating him doesn't even get you a cutscene.

noodler

I did it all, all the Dark Aeons, all the Monster Arena catches and then created enemies and finally Penance.

Dark Valefor is a piece of piss to be honest - his HP is tiny (140,000 if I remember correctly - very sad if that is true!) compared to the damage Wakka's Blitz limit break can do or Tidus' equivalent.

His attacks are powerful though and if you came across him before you had the break damage limit technique then I understand why you'd have problems.

By far the weakest of them though!

Off topic: CVG were describing, in an article, the most important games coming to VITA and they mentioned FFX. But they said it may not be the best FF, hell it might not even be in the top 5......sorry but BS to me - of the ones I have played this is easily, top5 (top 2 or 3 for me)

ancapailldorcha

Dark Valefor went down very, very easily. You say you liked Blitzball and that was the way to break the damage limit for Wakka so that makes sense. I hadn't even finished the game at that point so I got obliterated by energy ray.
I ended up doing the Dark Aeons but didn't manage to kill Penance.

Retr0gamer

noodler wrote: »

Dark Valefor is a piece of piss to be honest - his HP is tiny (140,000 if I remember correctly - very sad if that is true!) compared to the damage Wakka's Blitz limit break can do or Tidus' equivalent.

Not when he 9999's all 3 characters before you get a chance to attack

ancapailldorcha

I thought somehow, it was a special Valefor vs Dark Valefor battle so I gave Yuna a "first strike" weapon and had her summon Valefor who promptly got slaughtered by energy ray.

noodler

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I just saw them as being palette swapped Aeons with higher stats. They could have kept them out of the way like the weapons in FFVII. I got quite excited when I realised I could use Anima only to get irritated at Dark Valefor and Shiva in the way. At least they gave Yojimbo Zanmato.

Anima is one cool summon, I love her attacks.

Mindkiller

Anima's a chick? Wat? :eek:

ancapailldorcha

Yeah, she's

Seymour's mother. I think she was ill and she turned herself into a faith to give Seymour some means of protecting himself as he was spurned by both Guado and Human alike.

Also, Anima is the female subconscious inside the male mind and Animus is the male subconscious inside that of the female.

Xevkin

Did

Seymour

interact with Anima when

you fight him and summon her?

Can't seem to remember. Or get rid of the spoiler warnings, apparently.