Bertie Ahern statement/resignation

fishy fishy

Im proud to say that I always thought this guy was a sleezeball, before during and after he was taoiseach. What maddened me is the idiots that fell for the "walking on the back of his pants, ordinary joe soap" routine with the flat accent and him sniggering behind your backs. Didn't take much to fool ye.

Hope ye learned lessons.

the latest plonker who is head of ff now isn't much better - hypocrite doesn't even begin to cover what he is.

KeithAFC

crusher000 wrote: »

To think the men of 1916 laid down their lives to get this countries Independance for the likes Bertie and the majority of our politicians could line their own pockets and break our nation. Do our politicians say an Oath on election to the Dail? If so any politician found not only to be corrupt but incompetent should be charged in bringing the security of this State into jeopardy. I have said it before not on these forums and will say it again our politicans do not represent the majority of the citizens of this country whom are working class and until that day comes it will be always about them making more money and keeping the rest of us down. We need greater represntation for the working and poor classes (don't like using these terms but what's the alternatives) to truly reflect the demographic make up of Irelands population.

The same 1916 group which had Éamon de Valera who went on to set up a country dominated by the Roman Catholic Church and allowed them to run wild and destroy families. Only all these years later are people now finding out.

Compare that to now and it isn't as bad as people make out. At least Bertie Ahern got involved in the peace process and did some good things.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

crusher000 wrote: »

To think the men of 1916 laid down their lives to get this countries Independance for the likes Bertie and the majority of our politicians could line their own pockets and break our nation. Do our politicians say an Oath on election to the Dail? If so any politician found not only to be corrupt but incompetent should be charged in bringing the security of this State into jeopardy. I have said it before not on these forums and will say it again our politicans do not represent the majority of the citizens of this country whom are working class and until that day comes it will be always about them making more money and keeping the rest of us down. We need greater represntation for the working and poor classes (don't like using these terms but what's the alternatives) to truly reflect the demographic make up of Irelands population.

The same 1916 group which had Éamon de Valera who went on to set up a country dominated by the Roman Catholic Church and allowed them to run wild and destroy families. Only all these years later are people now finding out.

Compare that to now and it isn't as bad as people make out. At least Bertie Ahern got involved in the peace process and did some good things.

John hume did most of the work imo bertie just took the credit and used the conflict in the north to further his own career.

Biggins

KeithAFC wrote: »

...At least Bertie Ahern got involved in the peace process and did some good things.

Do you mean his involvement in Coillte and his involvement in Helvetia Wealth (a Swiss private bank he chairs - who said he had no accounts in Ireland again? - why should he? He's involved in a Swiss one! - wasn't someone asking where the money went? I wonder!!!) who had announced previously they are interested in acquiring Coillte (which Ahern had/has reported shares?) a major conflict of interest and presents a harmful oppurtunity for the purchase of the largest land developing company in the country - which he has both his feet standing in?
(While minister for finance, for 4 years at least, he was the main shareholder in Coillte)

Short version: a state body (going privatised at Aherns prior insistence and involvement - where he could see profitability easily by having access to the books) selling off our national forests and another body wishing to buy them which he's involved in too!

Ka-Ching!!!

Loads of info on the net about this but here is one link: http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ahernlinked-firm-wants-coillte-broken-up-and-sold-2821122.html

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

John hume did most of the work imo bertie just took the credit and used the conflict in the north to further his own career.

Bertie is a hero to many people up here. I think that is unfair on Bertie Ahern. His contribution can't be underestimated.

steddyeddy

take everything wrote: »

Wonderful summation by Miriam Lord in the IT today.
www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0323/1224313769154.html

You got there before me. Brilliant article, the best one yet on the mahon tribunal.

fishy fishy

KeithAFC wrote: »

The same 1916 group which had Éamon de Valera who went on to set up a country dominated by the Roman Catholic Church and allowed them to run wild and destroy families. Only all these years later are people now finding out.

Compare that to now and it isn't as bad as people make out. At least Bertie Ahern got involved in the peace process and did some good things.

i was going to point this poster in the right direction, but then I realised its only Keith -

The King of Moo

I can't believe some people are effectively defending Bertie by saying "sure all them politicians are crooked."

Of course political corruption isn't just restricted to Fianna Fáil, but that doesn't mean it's ok. Why not call for going after Bertie and every other corrupt politician, past or present, instead of saying "Why pick on Bertie?"

Political corruption thrives on the "they're all at it, sure, what do you expect from politicians?" attitude.

Though I do think it's pretty fair to pick on him more than others. Miriam Lord explains the reason very well in her article. He was our Taoiseach and he openly lied about his crooked dealings, laughing at us all the way. He knew that even if there was no paper trail, it was clear to anyone that he was up to no good. It's impossible for him not to have known how clear this was to the general public. Yet he continued to lie. Why? Because he doesn't care about the people of this country and whether or not they know how corrupt he is. He doesn't care about how many people hate him, and he doesn't care about the idiots who still support him and see him as a salt-of-the-earth nice guy. He probably thinks they're more stupid than the rest, and laughs more at them.
All he cared about was getting away with his crimes.

People defending him should be ashamed of themselves.

tayto lover

KeithAFC wrote: »

Bertie is a hero to many people up here. I think that is unfair on Bertie Ahern. His contribution can't be underestimated.

Maybe you mean the "contributions" he was receiving cannot be underestimated.

paddyismaddy

so what will happen him now f*ck all :rolleyes:

Orando Broom

KeithAFC wrote: »

Bertie is a hero to many people up here. I think that is unfair on Bertie Ahern. His contribution can't be underestimated.

What's the Protestant for 'troll'?

Also save your schadenfreude, your buckos up there are quick learners!

Show Time

Bullseye1 wrote: »

We must have one of the most corrupt excuses of politicians in Northern Europe. I'm sure they could give the Italians and Greeks a run for their money.

We are in a South American league of corrupt politicians if not better.

keano_afc

Does anyone really think Bertie is worried? Of course he isn't, and why should he be. There are no recriminations to be faced. All he has to do is look at Michael Lowry and know he has nothing to be concerned about. Lowry was found to have KNOWINGLY dodged tax, and aided O'Brien in acquiring the second mobile phone licence unethically. Lowry is the lowest of the low, a filthy human being whose corruption knew no bounds. Where is he now? Sitting in a jail cell or in his house regretting his actions? Nope, he's a sitting TD having topped the poll in the last election in his constituency, and despite a Dail motion passed recommending him to resign his seat, still has massive popularity in Tipp North.

There's a culture of cute hoorism in this country, and it shows no sign of stopping as long as the likes of Lowry and the Healy-Rae's get elected. I dont entirely blame Ahern at all, he's just one of many.

KeithAFC

Orando Broom wrote: »

What's the Protestant for 'troll'?

Also save your schadenfreude, your buckos up there are quick learners!

Excuse me?

Not everyone has the same opinion on Bertie Ahern. I thought that would have been accepted.

wendell borton

mrrepublic wrote: »

another with hunt to damage F.F. by F.G. brainless low lives.
come next election F.F. will be back in Government, The sooner the better.
at least they will abolish house charge et and get the country back on its feet. construction all thrived under F.F.

WTF.... you have to be trolling.


The thing that really pisses me off is that their are still people that admire bertie and not for the peace process, but for his shysterism.

KeithAFC

wendell borton wrote: »

WTF.... you have to be trolling.


The thing that really pisses me off is that their are still people that admire bertie and not for the peace process, but for his shysterism.

What is wrong with admiring one of the greatest Irish political figures in history who was instrumental in the greatest peace process the world has seen? A lot of people have a lot of time for Bertie Ahern and the hard work he put in with Tony Blair.

I would rather have Bertie Ahern than Tony Blair. It is amazing how this man gets no credit for the good work he done and yet more "suspect" should we say politicians get praised.

Biggins

KeithAFC wrote: »

What is wrong with admiring one of the greatest Irish political figures in history who was instrumental in the greatest peace process the world has seen?

We can thank/admire actions in that event. That don't mean we should accept the full package!

Should we all admire Pol Pot just because he chased the American army away - then went on to cause millions of deaths and suffering?

Should we admire Gadaffi because he supplied arms possibly to the IRA - but then might have been involved in the murder and/or cover-up of PC Fletcher and killing innocent civilians in a bombed plane?

Should we admire Mussolini for his antics with a German dictator just because he made the trains supposedly run on time?

All levels of badness - but for the acts of one or two things they might have done, does NOT whitewash their other actions nor does it hide they possible truer character!

---

Ahern has got LOADS of credit for his efforts over the North - all you have to do is a search on the net for words and news pieces alone on this.
Amazing that the true hero about the peace in the north, is shoved to one side and forgotten about bigger though!

John Hume - now THERE was a decent man, politician, human!
Ahern is not good enough to clean his shoes!

KeithAFC

Biggins wrote: »

We can thank/admire actions in that event. That don't mean we should accept the full package!

Should we all admire Pol Pot just because he chased the American army away - then went on to cause millions of deaths and suffering?

Should we admire Gadaffi because he supplied arms possibly to the IRA - but then might have been involved in the murder and/or cover-up of PC Fletcher and killing innocent civilians in a bombed plane?

Should we admire Mussolini for his antics with a German dictator just because he made the trains supposedly run on time?

All levels of badness - but for the acts of one or two things they might have done, does NOT whitewash their other actions nor does it hide they possible truer character!

All of that is much worse than anything Bertie Ahern has done. He isn't a saint but the great political figures never are. His legacy will be one of greatness on this island and the political moves he took to bring peace.

Biggins

KeithAFC wrote: »

All of that is much worse than anything Bertie Ahern has done. He isn't a saint but the great political figures never are. His legacy will be one of greatness on this island and the political moves he took to bring peace.

NO

JOHN HUME DID THAT.

The shyster just later after years/decades of effort by Hume (front stage and back), came along and signed on the dotted line!

KeithAFC

Biggins wrote: »

NO

JOHN HUME DID THAT.

The shyster just later after years/decades of effort by Hume (front stage and back), came along and signed on the dotted line!

John Hume did his part but so did Bertie Ahern. A guy who worked extremely hard with Tony Blair. He even got awarded in the Basque region for his efforts in the peace process in Spain.

Biggins

KeithAFC wrote: »

John Hume did his part but so did Bertie Ahern. A guy who worked extremely hard with Tony Blair. He even got awarded in the Basque region for his efforts in the peace process in Spain.

You see this makes me laugh - and its NOT in any way a dig at you or your opinion.

People like Hume have worked tirelessly for years/decades to get the main guys on both sides just to the table, to even then talk peace.
What has taken a very long time to do that - is then brushed too easily aside and the later guys that having spent much less time - or no time - on quiet meetings, possible very dangerous ones like earlier people have, go then and take the much credit.

Short version:
While Ahern was possibly busy raking in the dosh in some form or another, others were out there doing the real stuff - walking the streets of troubles and facing the armed participants face to face, in their dark homes and corners.
...Yet Ahern in his brief period of later participation, gets all the credit by some!

Naa, Ahern can kiss me ass - Hume could teach the man how to be a good politician any day - but Ahern is not worth the effort.

mrrepublic

F.F. created and put in place the peace process whereas the F.G. crowd still believed that the mess created by Michael Collins would never be sorted out.
UP F.F. the party of the people.

The King of Moo

mrrepublic wrote: »

F.F. created and put in place the peace process whereas the F.G. crowd still believed that the mess created by Michael Collins would never be sorted out.
UP F.F. the party of the people.

So why do so many of the people in this country hate them, and why have so many of their most prominent members (Ahern, Cowen etc) shown a complete lack of respect for the public and their wishes?

mrrepublic

The King of Moo wrote: »

So why do so many of the people in this country hate them, and why have so many of their most prominent members (Ahern, Cowen etc) shown a complete lack of respect for the public and their wishes?

Since the foundation of the State the people have put F.F. in power more often than any other party and come the next election the people will once again elect F.F. because the new breed and younger generation of F.F. candidates will appeal to all. F.G. will collapse as they have allways done in the past.
The larger farmers and most successful business men want F.F. back in power in order to get the Country up and running again.

The King of Moo

mrrepublic wrote: »

Since the foundation of the State the people have put F.F. in power more often than any other party and come the next election the people will once again elect F.F. because the new breed and younger generation of F.F. candidates will appeal to all. F.G. will collapse as they have allways done in the past.
The larger farmers and most successful business men want F.F. back in power in order to get the Country up and running again.

That's very wishful thinking, after they were decimated at the last election (which is much more relevant than any of the elections before then).

The only thing Fianna Fáil have going for them is that Fine Gael aren't much better in a lot of ways, and Enda Kenny isn't a charismatic figure.
Those the only reasons Fianna Fáil managed to win the 2007 election.

I think people are going to remember Fianna Fáil's many failings (which I'm sure you acknowledge) a lot longer than you think.

Biggins

mrrepublic wrote: »

Since the foundation of the State the people have put F.F. in power more often than any other party and come the next election the people will once again elect F.F. because the new breed and younger generation of F.F. candidates will appeal to all. F.G. will collapse as they have allways done in the past.
The larger farmers and most successful business men want F.F. back in power in order to get the Country up and running again.

Correction:
The larger farmers and most successful business men want F.F. back in power in order to get out of the the country what they can!

Maybe they are still thinking that way?

To Mr Micheál Martin:

“You’re representing a new Fianna Fail, but then I was thinking about two things from your past. One of them being a – totally legitimate – donation by [Cork property developer] Owen O’Callaghan that found its way into your wife’s Dublin bank account. That seemed strange to me and had a sniff of the old Fianna Fail.

And the second thing, in the Mahon Tribunal you were asked if you ever brought Owen O’Callaghan to meet Bertie Ahern and you said no that you would have remembered if such a thing happened. And then you were shown Mr Ahern’s ministerial diary which seemed to recollect a meeting between yourself, Bertie Ahern and Owen O’Callaghan but you said you couldn’t recall it...

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/03/05/micahel-martin-and-the-mahon-tribunal-report/

Next leader in a line of FF heads, to have questions hanging over their head - ALREADY?

Logical Fallacy

mrrepublic wrote: »

Since the foundation of the State the people have put F.F. in power more often than any other party and come the next election the people will once again elect F.F. because the new breed and younger generation of F.F. candidates will appeal to all. F.G. will collapse as they have allways done in the past.
The larger farmers and most successful business men want F.F. back in power in order to get the Country up and running again.

The Greens will be back in before FF tbh.

RobbingBandit

Biggins wrote: »

NO

JOHN HUME DID THAT.

The shyster just later after years/decades of effort by Hume (front stage and back), came along and signed on the dotted line!

Damn right on this one, Bertie and Tony Blair just happened to be the ones in power in the UK and Ireland at the time. Look at Blair 3 years later he went to war for ****s sake. Bertie will get what is coming to him one way or another.

up for anything

KeithAFC wrote: »

Bertie is a hero to many people up here. I think that is unfair on Bertie Ahern. His contribution can't be underestimated.

Luckily for you in the North you don't have to live with the result the rest of his contributions to Ireland caused. :rolleyes:

RobbingBandit

Men like Chuck Feeney should get the credit,Bertie signed his name that was all.

St.Spodo

I have a feeling history will be kinder to Ahern than most of us here would like.

ilovesleep

I wonder is there any way the nation could protest to get the Fcuking Fagg0ts to disband.

mloc

mrrepublic wrote: »

The larger farmers and most successful business men want F.F. back in power in order to get the Country up and running again.

It's this bizarre attitude that has put Ireland where it is now.

Every party and political body has some level of corruption associated with it, there is no doubt, but F.F. is alone in that a systemic, endemic and deeply rooted culture of corruption has defined the party at all levels over the last few decades. From backwards councillors to corrupt Taoisigh, the number of clean FF TDs is undoubtedly in the minority.

The idea that people cite the FF government's effect on the construction industry as a positive, it really scares me. To artificially bolster an industry to such an extent as they did, which was a massive factor in the sudden and catastrophic failure of the Irish housing market, was inexcusable.

Biggins

ilovesleep wrote: »

I wonder is there any way the nation could protest to get the Fcuking Fagg0ts to disband.

If you want to be real effective, go after the creeps thats funding them.
Stop the money flow and you help kill the organisation.
Name and shame those thats continuing to prop up this farce of a party and you help pull thee major supports from under them.
Its cold, ruthless - but effective.

mrrepublic

Biggins wrote: »

If you want to be real effective, go after the creeps thats funding them.
Stop the money flow and you help kill the organisation.
Name and shame those thats continuing to prop up this farce of a party and you help pull thee major supports from under them.
Its cold, ruthless - but effective.

those of you that want to get rid of F.F.
Wake up to reality F.F. is bigger than any amount of grudges you carry.
What do you want F.G., Lab, S.F. are ye for real.
UP F.F.

Biggins

mrrepublic wrote: »

those of you that want to get rid of F.F.
Wake up to reality F.F. is bigger than any amount of grudges you carry.
What do you want F.G., Lab, S.F. are ye for real.
UP F.F.

The bigger they are, the harder they... O'... whats the last word? :cool:

The King of Moo

mrrepublic wrote: »

those of you that want to get rid of F.F.
Wake up to reality F.F. is bigger than any amount of grudges you carry.
What do you want F.G., Lab, S.F. are ye for real.
UP F.F.

Could you address some of the issues with Fianna Fáil people have raised in this thread, such as the culture of corruption, Ahern's obvious corruption in particular, and their inflation of the construction industry?

"The others are worse" isn't much of a defence, but I can understand that there's not much other viable defence of the party.

galwayrush

mrrepublic wrote: »

those of you that want to get rid of F.F.
Wake up to reality F.F. is bigger than any amount of grudges you carry.
What do you want F.G., Lab, S.F. are ye for real.
UP F.F.

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
FF are by far the worst of a bad lot..

mloc

There will always be room for FF in Ireland.

There will always be people that despite the evidence, want to cling on to the culture of corruption, patronism, nepotism and always putting local politics above national issues. It is in many ways similar to blind faith; no matter what they are shown, or what they are told, it is impossible for them to see Fianna Fail and it's endemic culture of corruption in a rational way.

It might fade into relative obscurity, but dark heart of Fianna Fail, still beating particularly in many rural areas around Ireland, won't come to a standstill.

mrrepublic

The King of Moo wrote: »

Could you address some of the issues with Fianna Fáil people have raised in this thread, such as the culture of corruption, Ahern's obvious corruption in particular, and their inflation of the construction industry?

"The others are worse" isn't much of a defence, but I can understand that there's not much other viable defence of the party.[

All great economies depend on big business and a cosy relationship with government that is the reality. this is what leads to employment, investment etc.
F.F. , Lab. , S.F. ,are full of back water poor mouths that have no grasp of the real world and how to ignite the economy.
F.F.'s track record proves that they know what makes the wheels turn, it may be distasteful but it is the real world.
B.A. . B.C. , and M.M. are upright straight decent people that know more about the workings of a successful economy than any of those socialists now in power.

The King of Moo

mrrepublic wrote: »

All great economies depend on big business and a cosy relationship with government that is the reality. this is what leads to employment, investment etc.
F.F. , Lab. , S.F. ,are full of back water poor mouths that have no grasp of the real world and how to ignite the economy.
F.F.'s track record proves that they know what makes the wheels turn, it may be distasteful but it is the real world.
B.A. . B.C. , and M.M. are upright straight decent people that know more about the workings of a successful economy than any of those socialists now in power.

No offence, but I laughed out loud at that last part!

So you basically admit that what makes Fianna Fáil so great is the fact that they're willing to get their hands dirty and serve business interests, yet you also claim three of their biggest shysters and gombeens are upright straight decent people!

Again, no offence, but they've really got you brainwashed so much that you're a master at doublethink.

galwayrush

mrrepublic wrote: »

[.[

All great economies depend on big business and a cosy relationship with government that is the reality. this is what leads to employment, investment etc.
F.F. , Lab. , S.F. ,are full of back water poor mouths that have no grasp of the real world and how to ignite the economy.
F.F.'s track record proves that they know what makes the wheels turn, it may be distasteful but it is the real world.
B.A. . B.C. , and M.M. are upright straight decent people that know more about the workings of a successful economy than any of those socialists now in power.

Correct.

RobbingBandit

RobbingBandit wrote: »

FYP.

Probably a better example in all fairness. i suppose Berlusconi would be seen from Blatters point of view as a 'Messi' wheras Bertie might be more of a 'Cristiano Ronaldo'

galwayrush

Deleted User wrote: »

Probably a better example in all fairness. i suppose Berlusconi would be seen from Blatters point of view as a 'Messi' wheras Bertie might be more of a 'Cristiano Ronaldo'

I think Bertie's more of an Andy Carroll ....:D

galwayrush

galwayrush wrote: »

I think Bertie's more of an Andy Carroll ....:D

In terms of being a corrupt b*stard Bertie is up there with the best in the world ala maybe Matthew Macklin who fell short of a world title last saturday night. While Bertie Ahern is a top contender for the belt he would probably suffer a TKO to Berlusconi in the 10th or 11th round but would give him a few lacerations no doubt. Maybe even stagger him.

Hey even the Nigerians wanted advice from him. Thats saying something.

galwayrush

Deleted User wrote: »

In terms of being a corrupt b*stard Bertie is up there with the best in the world ala maybe Matthew Macklin who fell short of a world title last saturday night. While Bertie Ahern is a top contender for the belt he would probably suffer a TKO to Berlusconi in the 10th or 11th round but would give him a few lacerations no doubt. Maybe even stagger him.

Hey even the Nigerians wanted advice from him. Thats saying something.

The old 911 scam needs updating from a true master....:D

galwayrush

galwayrush wrote: »

The old 911 scam needs updating from a true master....:D

The 'Prince' wanted advice from 'the King'.........of corruption

Wild Bill

Show Time wrote: »

We are in a South American league of corrupt politicians if not better.

Clearly you know nothing about political corruption in North America. :rolleyes:

We're much closer to that in terms of modus operandi.

Wild Bill

mloc wrote: »

There will always be room for FF in Ireland.

There will always be people that despite the evidence, want to cling on to the culture of corruption, patronism, nepotism and always putting local politics above national issues. It is in many ways similar to blind faith; no matter what they are shown, or what they are told, it is impossible for them to see Fianna Fail and it's endemic culture of corruption in a rational way.

It might fade into relative obscurity, but dark heart of Fianna Fail, still beating particularly in many rural areas around Ireland, won't come to a standstill.

Ditto FG and Labour.

mloc

Wild Bill wrote: »

Ditto FG and Labour.

I'd agree that there is some corruption in both parties, but not to same extent as FF. FF is simply a party of corruption.