Relationship with alcohol

mikemac1

Am genuinely asking here

Watched a program about Bradford on Channel Four and one Muslim women was paired up with a pub landlady and went to spend time in another part of town. New experience for both of them.

She helped out behind the bar but wouldn't serve alcohol, just minerals.

So this has me wondering, is handling alcohol an issue for Muslims?

I'm not thinking of advanced topics or religious debate here, more if I were a Muslim teenager in Ireland and the only summer job I could get was barman would that be an issue?

Or work in Tesco or any supermarket and once you're of legal age you could be putting alcohol through the register.

Is any of this an issue?

I'm just thinking how difficult it can be for young people to get part time jobs and are Muslims further restricted in the jobs they do?

wexie

I had this discussion with a (Muslim) friend who said that there is nothing forbidding the handling of alcohol (it's not considered unclean) however it should not be consumed as it clouds the mind.

I'm sure someone will come along and give the exact details but this is how it was explained to me. (I'd asked him would it bother him if I drank in front of him).

Jaafa

One thing you should know before I give you my thoughts is that despite what you might hear, there is really no official consensus on smaller issues such as the handling of alcohol. Not drinking alcohol,ok most Muslims agree on that. But the smaller issues are usually left up to the individual.

Personally as I don't drink alcohol due to two reasons. First I feel it would have a greater damaging effect on me than any benefit it would bring. Second I dislike like the culture of alcohol being practically a mandatory part of nights out in Ireland, more so in youths.

Therefore I would feel it to be hypocritical to then serve alcohol or facilitate the purchasing of alcohol given that I have those views.

That said if I was really stuck for a job, in desperate need of income, I would subscribe to the guideline of only working for a business were alcohol is only a small part of the income. i.e Hotels, supermarkets etc. And even then I'd be reluctant to directly serve or sell it.

So certainly I'd never work in a pub or bar.

irishconvert

Drinking alcohol is considered a sin. Muslims are not allowed to commit sin or enable others to commit sin. Therefore it is logical to conclude that we cannot serve alcohol as this would be enabling others to sin.

hivizman

irishconvert wrote: »

Drinking alcohol is considered a sin. Muslims are not allowed to commit sin or enable others to commit sin. Therefore it is logical to conclude that we cannot serve alcohol as this would be enabling others to sin.

There's a hadith, narrated in the canonical collections of Al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah, that reports Muhammad as saying: "Truly Allah has cursed khamr and has cursed the one who produces it, the one for whom it is produced, the one who drinks it, the one who serves it, the one who carries it, the one for whom it is carried, the one who sells it, the one who earns from the sale of it, the one who buys it, and the one for whom it is bought." Pretty comprehensive!

The word khamr is used in the Qur'an six times to signify wine in particular and alcoholic drinks (indeed, all intoxicants) more generally. The word comes from the triliteral root kha meem ra, which has a sense of covering or concealing. The idea is that consuming intoxicants "covers" or "conceals" one's reason. There is a minority view that khamr refers only to fermented grape juice, so wine and brandy are forbidden but alcoholic drinks based on grain, such as whiskey, are not, but the majority view is that khamr extends to all alcoholic drinks, which are thereby considered haram.

Whether the prohibition goes beyond alcohol to other forms of intoxicant such as tobacco is debated by Islamic scholars. Those who would include tobacco within the range of haram products often reinforce the Qur'anic prohibition of intoxicants by referring to prohibitions of, or at least strong warnings against, behaviour that causes physical or mental harm to oneself.

How rigorously the prohibition on dealing with alcohol is interpreted is often a matter of personal scrupulosity. I've come across similar variations in attitude in the area of finance, where some Muslims interpret the prohibition of riba (interest or usury) as preventing them from working in any business with a bank overdraft (because this involves their employer paying interest, and hence part of their income is indirectly supported by riba). Most Muslims I have spoken to consider this extreme, and if challenged rely on arguments of necessity - in the West, the economy is built on interest, so it is practically impossible to avoid working for an organisation that pays or receives interest. The necessity of generating an income to support oneself and one's family outweighs the potential sin of dealing in interest, especially if this is only a minor aspect of the organisation's activities. So it may be possible to work in a restaurant where the sale of alcoholic drinks represents about 25% of turnover, but not in a pub where the sale of alcoholic drinks represents about 75% of turnover.

oceanclub

I thought the obligation to avoid alcohol was only for Muslims. Therefore, why is it a sin to allow non-Muslims to buy it?

Also, to be consistent, wouldn't you have to avoid selling pork and non-halal food to non-Muslims, and also avoid selling food to them during Ramadan daylight hours?

P.

hivizman

oceanclub wrote: »

I thought the obligation to avoid alcohol was only for Muslims. Therefore, why is it a sin to allow non-Muslims to buy it?

I think that the reasoning behing this is that, if something is haram, it's as much a sin to profit from providing that thing as to consume it. So Islamic banks won't lend money to businesses established to make and sell alcoholic drinks. Or at least that's the principle - in practice it depends on how strict one is. I read a few years ago about a hotel (the Grand Hyatt, now called the Grand Nile) in Cairo where the owner, a Muslim, decided that no alcoholic drinks would be sold. However, plenty of other hotels in Cairo, also with Muslim owners, seem happy to sell alcoholic drinks.

There was a news story a while ago in the UK about someone originally from Saudi Arabia who was working for Tesco in one of the company's distribution depots and "suddenly" realised that Tesco sold alcoholic drinks. He asked to be reassigned so that he didn't have to handle alcohol, but this proved impossible. He took Tesco to an industrial tribunal, but lost.

oceanclub wrote: »

Also, to be consistent, wouldn't you have to avoid selling pork and non-halal food to non-Muslims, and also avoid selling food to them during Ramadan daylight hours?

With regard to selling pork and non-halal food, then yes, but there is no restriction on buying and selling food during the daylight hours of Ramadan, only on consuming food. You can cook food during the daytime to consume after sunset, but you can't taste the food as you're doing the cooking.

There's no obvious consistency about this - I've stayed in hotels in Malaysia where the bulk of the staff are Muslims, and been served alcoholic drinks with no problems, while I've never been served pork products such as bacon (though they do provide "beef bacon" and "turkey bacon") and sausages (though they do provide "chicken sausages").