What do you think happens when you die?

forfuxsake

philologos wrote: »

Where did I say that? - I'm hugely supportive of telling all people about Jesus and indeed support such missionary efforts.

Why? Surely Jesus would not burn them in hell for rejecting HIS word if they were unaware of his very existence. By making them aware you are risking their souls in order to save your own.

As the Edwardian Tourette sufferer would say, 'poppycock'.

philologos

See above.

shizz

philologos wrote: »

The Biblical text is silent in respect to it. That doesn't mean anything either way. Ultimately, I think it is better to know ones true purpose and know and trust God, than not to know any of this.

So what happens to all of god's children, who by his fault alone, don't know of his son? What happens to them when they die?

forfuxsake

philologos wrote: »

The Biblical text is silent in respect to it. That doesn't mean anything either way. Ultimately, I think it is better to know ones true purpose and know and trust God, than not to know any of this.

The biblical text is silent because it is a load of shi'ite.

forfuxsake

shizz wrote: »

So what happens to all of god's children, who by his fault alone, don't know of his son? What happens to them when they die?

yeah what he said

philologos

forfuxsake wrote: »

The biblical text is silent because it is a load of shi'ite.

You're welcome to that view. It's hardly a logical argument to present though. Naturally, I'll not be agreeing with you any time soon.

Toby Take a Bow

philologos wrote: »

I concede that to you. It is however found in the vast majority of cultures on the face of the earth. It will be found in more as the Bible is translated into more tribal languages as is being worked on.

That brings up another point. For someone who was so concerned with saving mankind, why did he only appear to a select few people in a provence in the back-end of the Roman empire? Being god, could he not have appeared to everyone everywhere? We wouldn't have to worry about tribal language translations 2000 years down the road if there had been a more proactive stance taken on saving mankind. Which is all the more surprising considering that's kind of the whole point of his message.

philologos wrote: »

I don't know what you mean by "slow". Firstly, I don't anticipate everyone who hears about Jesus to accept Him. All that is required of Christians is that they go into the world and tell people about Jesus. If people don't accept Jesus, that ultimately is their decision.

By slow, I mean that we talk of 'inroads' into key markets like Korea/Japan/India, despite the word being known in many of these areas for at least 50 years, far more in certain cases. I would also be interested to know how these 'inroads' compare to increases in the population of these countries. Poorly, I would think. I would describe this as a poor rate of conversion. This is all the more criminal as poor Chinese babies die without knowing Jesus, and so burn for all eternity in excruciating pain, possibly while horrible things are done to them by Satan.

philologos wrote: »

God has offered all forgiveness. They have to accept it. Unless you're saying that you want God to force all people to come into relationship with Him? Is that what you would really desire?

It's not forgiveness if the alternative is eternal damnation. Especially if his central message was to turn the other cheek. And I certainly don't think Jesus should force us to accept him, that's really missing my point. My point is that he should realise our 'flaws', accept us as thinking people, and forgive us.

philologos wrote: »

I doubt it. God has done more than enough for man. Man unfortunately, still chooses to turn their back on Him even when He has offered them salvation. If one hates God, how can one reasonably ever enter into a relationship with Him and be saved?

That's fair enough, I suppose. Again, however, I would see that more as the kind of reaction I'd expect from people. Jesus being Jesus should stick to his message and forgive us this ultimate sin.

philologos wrote: »

It's not childish to offer sin a punishment. Much as it isn't childish for the Government to offer you a sentence for a crime. God created the world, and as a result has a right to lay down ethical standards for us to follow. Should we reject them we deserve to be punished. God would have been well within His right as a just judge not to provide any way through which we can be forgiven, yet through His mercy He sent Jesus to rescue us from our sin.

It would be childish of the government to 'offer' sin a punishment if their central tenet was forgiveness. The governments basic understanding of crime is to punish it. Jesus' is forgiveness. But also punishment if you don't accept him.

kincsem

People say thing like:
How much did he / she leave?
Who's in the will?

Toby Take a Bow

philologos wrote: »

The Biblical text is silent in respect to it. That doesn't mean anything either way. Ultimately, I think it is better to know ones true purpose and know and trust God, than not to know any of this.

It might mean that the biblical text was initially directed towards the Jews, with extra bits added to include the Roman empire. I don't think they thought further than their own worldview.

forfuxsake

philologos wrote: »

You're welcome to that view. It's hardly a logical argument to present though. Naturally, I'll not be agreeing with you any time soon.

ok so what happens to those who die, like my baby cousin recently, who for no fault of their own had never heard the word of your vengeful egotistical genocidal sadistic god? they go to limbo, heaven, hell? or the guy in the Brazilian rainforest who dies last year, never having heard his word? Does he fry for not believing somethnig he had never heard of?


and if they go to heaven then surely ignorance is bliss and we should stop spreading the word of god so that billions can be saved.

it's not very logical, is it?

philologos

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

That brings up another point. For someone who was so concerned with saving mankind, why did he only appear to a select few people in a provence in the back-end of the Roman empire? Being god, could he not have appeared to everyone everywhere? We wouldn't have to worry about tribal language translations 2000 years down the road if there had been a more proactive stance taken on saving mankind. Which is all the more surprising considering that's kind of the whole point of his message.

Jesus came into the world, to bring what was formerly an exclusively Jewish message to the entire world. He did that within Jewish society and also amongst Gentiles if you read the Gospels. The Apostles brought His message through the Greek language right across Asia Minor and Europe, and to this day the message is spreading globally. God made us partners in this operation, for our good as well as His.

I ultimately think that God's way is best, and that He knows what is best. I don't think men are really suitable candidates to be giving Him advice. I think the way He brought His message into the world was apt for that time period, and the way through which it was spread is enough for all time.

By the by, when Jesus was around people did not believe Him even when they saw Him face to face. I don't necessarily believe that all people would believe in Jesus or His message if He was preaching it to them right here right now because all people didn't believe in Him then. Indeed, His message infuriated many and continues to do so to this day.

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

By slow, I mean that we talk of 'inroads' into key markets like Korea/Japan/India, despite the word being known in many of these areas for at least 50 years, far more in certain cases. I would also be interested to know how these 'inroads' compare to increases in the population of these countries. Poorly, I would think. I would describe this as a poor rate of conversion. This is all the more criminal as poor Chinese babies die without knowing Jesus, and so burn for all eternity in excruciating pain, possibly while horrible things are done to them by Satan.

I don't consider it slow. I don't think all people will ever accept the Gospel, even if they heard it, even if Jesus Himself preached it. As long as people are being saved, that makes me as a Christian pleased. I'd long for all people to be saved, but I don't believe that will happen because people's pride will keep them from it. People need to come to the realisation that they are sinners and that they want to start fresh with God and come to know Him by Jesus' death and resurrection.

By the by, it isn't Biblical that Satan rules over hell. That's the comic book caricature.

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

It's not forgiveness if the alternative is eternal damnation. Especially if his central message was to turn the other cheek. And I certainly don't think Jesus should force us to accept him, that's really missing my point. My point is that he should realise our 'flaws', accept us as thinking people, and forgive us.

Eternal damnation is what we all deserve as a result of sin. Jesus died in our place on the cross so if that we believed and trust in Him we would never have to endure that but would have eternal life.

That is a decision and it rests firmly on our shoulders. Passing the buck back to God is a denial of personal responsibility.

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

That's fair enough, I suppose. Again, however, I would see that more as the kind of reaction I'd expect from people. Jesus being Jesus should stick to his message and forgive us this ultimate sin.

It's not Jesus' fault that you reject forgiveness. Ultimately you're saying that you want Jesus to force you to believe in Him.

The point of Jesus coming into the world to rescue us is that we would restablish a meaningful relationship with our Creator. Not that people could continue living in contempt of Him and His standard.

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

It would be childish of the government to 'offer' sin a punishment if their central tenet was forgiveness. The governments basic understanding of crime is to punish it. Jesus' is forgiveness. But also punishment if you don't accept him.

You've misunderstood what I've said.

We've already sinned. We already deserve to be punished. That's our situation. God is a just judge and cannot leave sin unpunished. This is the reality before Jesus, and it is the reality now.

God in His mercy, sent Jesus into the world, to take the punishment we deserve on our behalf so that people could have new life, and a new relationship with Him, and repent of their sin.

It's not that Jesus paid for our sin, so that we can sin some more and reject God some more. That's not the point of the Gospel.

We are all organic matter, we die and decompose just like all the other organic matter. We are different to most of the animal species but thats purely down to the evolution and development of our brain over millions of years. When you die you no longer exist either physically or spiritually. Your only existence is in the memories of others.

Run_to_da_hills

I once had a very nasty NDE "K Hole." from Ketamine that would have lasted about two hours but at the time I thought it was going to go on forever. it was worse than any nightmare I ever had as I was "conscious" and was aware of what was about. My mind was telling me that I had died. If Hell is going to be remotely like this I wouldn't want to be going there.

Deki

I'm not basing my beliefs on logic, but faith. No I believe you must be of an age and of a degree of intelligence and understanding to be held responsible. You don't seem to realize I am a Christian, not because I am afraid of what would happen when I die, I am a Christian because I know the joy and peace of living as a Christian. I would like you to experience the same, if you don't want to then that is up to you. You obviously believe I'm wrong so what compels you to waste so much time on changing the minds of people like me?

shizz

Deki wrote: »

I'm not basing my beliefs on logic, but faith. No I believe you must be of an age and of a degree of intelligence and understanding to be held responsible. You don't seem to realize I am a Christian, not because I am afraid of what would happen when I die, I am a Christian because I know the joy and peace of living as a Christian. I would like you to experience the same, if you don't want to then that is up to you. You obviously believe I'm wrong so what compels you to waste so much time on changing the minds of people like me?

How can you not see how flawed that is? Using logic is how we survive. Evolution has given us magnificent brain that developed conciousness and the ability to be aware of our surroundings. We are naturally curious creatures. We need to know. Having faith is not knowing.

You say you know the joy and peace of living as a christian? While technically I am christian due to my baptism and what not, I can guarantee you that we still live the same life with the same morals. Living life as an atheist will be no different.

Doc Ruby

Deki wrote: »

I'm not basing my beliefs on logic

That's probably a good thing, let me run a few logical facts at you
- If there is an omnipotent/omniscient being, it is mathematically logically impossible for there to be free will
- If there is no free will, it seems supremely vicious to condemn people to an eternity in hellfire since they have no choice in their actions

So either your god is a sonofabitch and there's nothing anyone can do about it, or he's not omnipotent. In both cases the bible is fundamentally incorrect as regards certain basic tenets of faith.

Miguel_Sanchez

philologos wrote: »

What do you think? One needs to accept the Gospel to be saved.

If there is a God, I doubt he's as petty as that.

philologos

I don't feel it is "petty" for God to offer us forgiveness. What is "petty" perhaps is the unwillingness that many have to accept Him.

Rezident

We know there's more to life than this e.g. Spirituality etc. the alternative seems depressing.

Miguel_Sanchez

philologos wrote: »

I don't feel it is "petty" for God to offer us forgiveness. What is "petty" perhaps is the unwillingness that many have to accept Him.

Well good luck with that.

I've no interest in pointing out how silly the whole thing is to be honest.

Deki

I think you might be confusing faith with man made organized religion. I know several atheists and they for the most part share my moral values. I never meant to imply that there aren't moral and upright atheists. The ten commandments are a good set of rules and I strive to follow them, but my faith in God has nothing to do with them. The rite of baptism does not make you a Christian. The desire to follow Christ and behave in agreement with His teachings, to feel God's presence in your life, to commune with him in prayer and develop a personal spiritual relationship with Him is what I mean. Unless you believe in Christ you can not be a Christian and could not know these things.

I don't (evidently) live by logic. I don't believe that evolution has given us a magnificent brain. I believe that God has given His creation a magnificent brain. I don't believe man or any part of the universe was a random accident. In my experience having faith is knowing. Through my faith I am convinced.

shizz

Deki wrote: »

I don't (evidently) live by logic. I don't believe that evolution has given us a magnificent brain. I believe that God has given His creation a magnificent brain. I don't believe man or any part of the universe was a random accident. In my experience having faith is knowing. Through my faith I am convinced.

This is ludicrous.

What is your experience? Did you have faith that the sun would rise this morning and by the grace of god it did? I would love to know how having faith in something is knowing. I really would. Not putting any thought into something is apparently knowing now. I may as well quit university.

LH Pathe

Nothing happens at all. They'll burn down the synagogues at 6:00 and they'll all sing along like before

positron

I see great parallels between Christians and rock-n-roll groupies. Both groups thinks they are doing it right, and others are all silly, doing it wrong etc. Same with Muslims. And many other religious groups. And sometimes groups of teens tends to think like this too. Every one of them seems to think they are doing it right, and others wrong.

PS: I didn't meant to offend either group with that comment, just an observation.

purpur1

When you die the undertaker plugs/sews your orifices and you get pumped full of formaldehyde....f**k yeah

Deki

shizz wrote: »

This is ludicrous.

What is your experience? Did you have faith that the sun would rise this morning and by the grace of god it did? I would love to know how having faith in something is knowing. I really would. Not putting any thought into something is apparently knowing now. I may as well quit university.

I did have faith the sun would rise this morning, I also have faith that God exists and that He loves and cares for me. It doesn't bother me that you don't have this faith, and I really don't know why you are so bothered by my beliefs. This whole thing was started by about 3 people saying they thought they would go to Heaven, that so affronted some that all this has followed. You are free to think my beliefs are ludicrous . I don't care, it's not going to shake my beliefs or change anything about me. I am convinced.
As far as mathematically proving Gods non existence, I would venture to guess that man's existence could mathematically be disproved, but here we are. I love and will pray for you all.

Doc Ruby

Deki wrote: »

As far as mathematically proving Gods non existence, I would venture to guess that man's existence could mathematically be disproved, but here we are. I love and will pray for you all.

No mention of the existence or otherwise of god, from me at least, only pointing out that should he exist, he's either not all powerful or is a particularly nasty piece of work. And in either case the bible is woefully wrong. The logic is entirely unescapable.

Red21

For all the skeptical, atheist, and atheist/agnostic posters.

If you had lived at any point throughout our history do you believe you'd have the same outlook to the possibility of an afterlife that you do today?

Deki

Doc Ruby wrote: »

No mention of the existence or otherwise of god, from me at least, only pointing out that should he exist, he's either not all powerful or is a particularly nasty piece of work. And in either case the bible is woefully wrong. The logic is entirely unescapable.

sorry, my mistake, it was freewill you were mathematically eliminating.

RiseToTheTop

Does anyone actually know what will happen?

No.

Doc Ruby

Deki wrote: »

sorry, my mistake, it was freewill you were mathematically eliminating.

Either that or omnipotence. Take your pick, because its one or the other.

Doctor Jimbob

Deki wrote: »

sorry, my mistake, it was freewill you were mathematically eliminating.

But why worship a god who allows us to suffer so much for our mistakes?

shizz

Deki wrote: »

I did have faith the sun would rise this morning, I also have faith that God exists and that He loves and cares for me. It doesn't bother me that you don't have this faith, and I really don't know why you are so bothered by my beliefs. This whole thing was started by about 3 people saying they thought they would go to Heaven, that so affronted some that all this has followed. You are free to think my beliefs are ludicrous . I don't care, it's not going to shake my beliefs or change anything about me. I am convinced.
As far as mathematically proving Gods non existence, I would venture to guess that man's existence could mathematically be disproved, but here we are. I love and will pray for you all.

Yes but that faith was brought by KNOWING logically that it would. It's fine if you need to think there is higher power to make you feel warm and cuddly but I think we as a human race should be past this phase.

The idea of a god was brought by us trying to make sense of the world. Now we have the knowledge and scientific method to try and understand this universe for what it really is.

I'm not asking you or telling you to change your faith. You are a human being you can decide whatever you want. But I advise you to put actual thought into the world and be curious. You're taking all of the fun and wonder out of this universe by stamping it with a big "GOD DID IT".

Also, it is mathematically likely that we can exist. The universe is so vast that we can't even see the majority of it. What we are physically able to see with our biggest telescopes is but a speck in the universe. Our galaxy is but a speck within that speck. And our solar system is smaller again. Much smaller.

With the billions and billions of scenarios playing out inside our universe. All of the forming star systems, there was bound to be AT LEAST one that played out just right for us to exist. It is simply that we see this corner of the universe to be stable and habitable to us because we exist to see it. If it wasn't, we wouldn't.

The world you live in is much greater than you are perceiving it to be. Open your mind to it.

Dudess

Reincarnation makes sense to me personally.

shizz

Dudess wrote: »

Reincarnation makes sense to me personally.

It makes a sort of sense to me to. But not in the "I must live my life in the right way so that In my next life I'm not a rat" or whatever.

professore

Red21 wrote: »

For all the skeptical, atheist, and atheist/agnostic posters.

If you had lived at any point throughout our history do you believe you'd have the same outlook to the possibility of an afterlife that you do today?

You could ask the same of anyone who is openly gay today.

Considering anyone who did would have been tortured and /or burned at the stake for publicly expressing ideas like this then we will never know. I think atheism is a deep rooted belief for some people regardless of religious upbringing.

Dudess

Red21 wrote: »

For all the skeptical, atheist, and atheist/agnostic posters.

If you had lived at any point throughout our history do you believe you'd have the same outlook to the possibility of an afterlife that you do today?

It's not something we could know I suppose. In times past people did accept god more readily, so on that basis, perhaps.

Freewill doesn't explain non man-made misery.

Dudess

shizz wrote: »

It makes a sort of sense to me to. But not in the "I must live my life in the right way so that In my next life I'm not a rat" or whatever.

Yeah same here. I've never thought of one's next incarnation as being predestined.

gosuckonalemon

Nothing happens when we die. You rot in the ground.

Scientific studies were carried out in former East Germany back in 1979 on this matter.

A person who had died was buried in a coffin. After three years the person's coffin was dug up. All that was left of the body was a rotted corp, mainly bones.

This experiment proved that nothing happens when we die bar rotting and those involved won a nobel prize.

shizz

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

Nothing happens when we die. You rot in the ground.

Scientific studies were carried out in former East Germany back in 1979 on this matter.

A person who had died was buried in a coffin. After three years the person's coffin was dug up. All that was left of the body was a rotted corp, mainly bones.

This experiment proved that nothing happens when we die bar rotting and those involved won a nobel prize.

Please tell me you aren't serious hahaha

Red21

professore wrote: »

You could ask the same of anyone who is openly gay today.

Considering anyone who did would have been tortured and /or burned at the stake for publicly expressing ideas like this then we will never know. I think atheism is a deep rooted belief for some people regardless of religious upbringing.

I'm not asking when would you have been openly skeptical about religion etc, but is there a time that you believe that our knowledge of the natural world was such, that the belief in a deity became unlikely.

themandan6611

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Does anyone actually know what will happen?

No.

i do but i am not allow tell anyone

Red21

Dudess wrote: »

It's not something we could know I suppose.

I know, but you can be as broad as you like in terms of time span.

I guess a better way of asking would be is there a certain area of knowledge that we now have that we didn't have before that makes believing in an afterlife difficult for you?

paddy147

What do you think happens when you die??

You stop being alive.


Think about it..;)

Jack_Russell

you start to smell.
real bad.

philologos

shizz: There's nothing logical about believing that the sun will rise other than the fact that I've observed the sun rise on numerous occasions before.

Indeed, there's nothing logical about my trust in getting on the train in the morning other than I have faith that the driver knows what they are doing and I've been safe on the train at numerous junctures until that point before.

Christianity is also faith based on the testimony of Jesus. For believers it's also based on the impact of that faith on their lives, and also in terms of how the Bible is clear in reality through being in large agreement with history, archaeology, and geology, and indeed in terms of simply being rather accurate as to the state of human nature and the problem we find ourselves in, and indeed that very need of salvation. It makes a whole lot of sense on examination and for that reason I'm more than happy to believe and trust in Jesus. Perhaps that is largely down to God opening up my eyes to see it, but I could argue for my faith quite happily. The question is, what would be the best use of my time in order to communicate the real Jesus to others. Is it squabbling with atheists on boards.ie as if it was some kind of argument to be won or is it doing something else. The latter seems to be more reasonable I think.

Run_to_da_hills

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Does anyone actually know what will happen?

No.

themandan6611 wrote: »

i do but i am not allow tell anyone

I do and its my duty to warn everyone.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death". Revelation 21:8

Unless people repent and turn to God for forgiveness they are all heading for the high way to Hell as AC/DC would correctly put it.

philologos

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Either that or omnipotence. Take your pick, because its one or the other.

Why again? - Give me a good explanation I'd be interested in having a look at what you have to say.

I don't believe it is either one or the other. Foreknowledge is not the same thing as predetermination.

positron

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Does anyone actually know what will happen?

No.

If you put a cat in a box and close it, do you know if the cat is still there?

No.

Do you know what is going to anything or anyone the very next second?

No.

That's how things are. We live in certain dimensions (3), and things beyond that is not real to us, not because they are not real, but because we can not comprehend them.

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

As opposed to the story that the universe created itself? Or the story that right and wrong are just whatever we feel like? Or the story that there is no ultimate rhyme, or reason to this existence? - I think Christianity makes a heck of a lot more sense than atheism to be honest with you.

Yet when asked to explain why it makes sense you always run away.

Every.

Single.

Time.

philologos wrote: »

I don't feel it is "petty" for God to offer us forgiveness. What is "petty" perhaps is the unwillingness that many have to accept Him.

Yeah funny that people would fail to accept a premise for which you have offered not just little, but literally NO evidence, argument, data or reasons to lend it even a modicum of credence? Go figure.