What do you think happens when you die?

Toby Take a Bow

philologos wrote: »

Jesus came into the world, to bring what was formerly an exclusively Jewish message to the entire world. He did that within Jewish society and also amongst Gentiles if you read the Gospels. The Apostles brought His message through the Greek language right across Asia Minor and Europe, and to this day the message is spreading globally. God made us partners in this operation, for our good as well as His.

Oh ya, I'm aware of the basic story of the evangelical nature of Jesus's word. My original point is that taking 2000 years for the word to reach saturation point (which it hasn't yet) strikes me as inconsiderate of a god whose central message is salvation when you accept him. And it doesn't matter whether people might reject his message once they hear it (as you argue later). That's irrelevant. The point is to get that message across in order to attempt to get salvation.

philologos wrote: »

I don't consider it slow. I don't think all people will ever accept the Gospel, even if they heard it, even if Jesus Himself preached it. As long as people are being saved, that makes me as a Christian pleased. I'd long for all people to be saved, but I don't believe that will happen because people's pride will keep them from it. People need to come to the realisation that they are sinners and that they want to start fresh with God and come to know Him by Jesus' death and resurrection.

This seems to be the same point, again. For someone who has stated that accepting Jesus is key to salvation, you're remarkably ambivalent about all those people who could have been saved who are being damned purely because they never heard the word. Something which could have been immediately resolved had Jesus appeared to many (again: it doesn't matter if people reject him, that he gave them the chance is the important thing here).

philologos wrote: »

By the by, it isn't Biblical that Satan rules over hell. That's the comic book caricature.

Comic book caricature as opposed to the Bible's? I don't really see the difference.

philologos wrote: »

It's not that Jesus paid for our sin, so that we can sin some more and reject God some more. That's not the point of the Gospel.

But Jesus does forgive, is that right? So we can live the life of sin, and then repent and then we're saved? We can do that in the last moments of our lives, but once we meet jesus at the pearly gates and repent then? Sorry, eternal damnation for you!

tdv123

Kamjana wrote: »

What if you get cremated?

Then a cork from a wine bottle knocks are ahses of the mantle piece & a cat pees on it.

TURRICAN

We become part of the critter world.
Then if sombody walks on you and your stuck to their shoe we then become a mould or fungus and so on.

Fact.

LuckyLloyd

Ever black out?
Have a dreamless sleep?

Death will be what you experience when passed out - nothing, except forever this time.

Depending on how you die, during the few seconds immediately preceeding your moment of passing you may experience an extremely vivid hallucinatory trip. This will be because of certain chemicals your brain releases in stuations of immense stress.

But that trip will end when you end and then there will be nothing.

You can spend your whole life engaging with religion or some other belief system because this reality is undoubtedly depressing. Or you can just get on with your life as best you can and not dwell on the inevitable.

Doc Ruby

philologos wrote: »

Why again? - Give me a good explanation I'd be interested in having a look at what you have to say.

I don't believe it is either one or the other. Foreknowledge is not the same thing as predetermination.

But it is, if you can't change the outcome. All you're saying is that god may have omniscience but not omnipotence. And it is neccessary for a creator of all to have omnipotence at least at the beginning, thus god is inevitably responsible for everything, so whats the deal with the judging, it seems like an exercise in, what, futility?

Some of the excuses for this clear, basic and obvious logical flaw in judeo-christian logic have included things like: "However, by His will, Man is given free choice in certain areas. Which means that G-d makes an exception in those instances: He withholds His consciousness from its descent into reality -- since that would force a person to behave according to His will."

Doesn't work, you're either omniscient/omnipotent or not, its not something that can be turned on and off like a light switch. Or to put it another way, god would be aware before "witholding his consciousness" what the effect of that would be. This is just one among a great many attempts to wiggle out of it put forth by religious scholars down the centuries, and none are much of an improvement.

You can fall back on "god's ways are mysterious and unknowable to us mortals" if you like, but its not going to fool anyone at this stage, the logic is too simple and clear. Young children can grasp it with ease.

So you have two choices, without going down the road of its all a load of nonsense:
a) God is all knowing and all seeing, and we have no free will, therefore god is a phenomenally evil creature that cares nothing for its creations, which are mere sock puppets anyway
b) God is not all knowing and all seeing, which is probably avoided by theists since that lends validity to other belief systems.

and in either case the bible is fundamentally incorrect.

I believe when you die, you die.

NiallFH

In my opinion when we die, we are done, no after life, no spirit world, no second chances.

I also believe if anything this is a good thing to believe, makes you want to get the most from your life rather than just thinking, 'oh well theres always next time after im finished playing harp on a cloud with the other angels'

housetypeb

Jaysus gives you a choice, if you love him you are saved,if you don't you go to hell, totally your choice,you have free will after all.

Tony Soprano gives you a choice, pay him protection money and you are safe, if you don't he'll punish you, totally your choice,you have free will after all.

positron

Tony Soprano is Jesus. Or was Jesus a gangsta?

housetypeb

positron wrote: »

Tony Soprano is Jesus. Or was Jesus a gangsta?

Both seem to think extortion is acceptable.

dr.bollocko

Relatives argue over your will.
Keep god out of after hours.

Red21

I'll try again.
Most people on here are saying they believe that when you die thats the end.
Do people with this skeptical outlook think, if they had lived say 500 years ago, they would've had the same outlook?
Another ways of asking is, what knowledge(if any)do we now have that we didn't have before which makes people believe so strongly that there isin't any afterlife?

dr.bollocko

Red21 wrote: »

I'll try again.
Most people on here are saying they believe that when you die thats the end.
Do people with this skeptical outlook think, if they had lived say 500 years ago, they would've had the same outlook?
Another ways of asking is, what knowledge(if any)do we now have that we didn't have before which makes people believe so strongly that there isin't any afterlife?

I asked Siri. So I suppose that's the end of that religion wise. Anyone want to join me in tearing down a few churches? We can turn them into apple shops.

positron

Red21 wrote: »

I'll try again.
Most people on here are saying they believe that when you die thats the end.
Do people with this skeptical outlook think, if they had lived say 500 years ago, they would've had the same outlook?

I dislike how you call it 'skeptical outlook' when someone comes to the best possible conclusion based on all known facts - where as you think your version which follows a story as the fact.

Red21 wrote: »

Another ways of asking is, what knowledge(if any)do we now have that we didn't have before which makes people believe so strongly that there isin't any afterlife?

Why 500 years ago, can I ask you back, have you thought about what you would think of death if you were born and grew up in say Iran (naturally you would be a Muslim)? Or India (possibly Hindu?).

The beliefs you are holding so strongly and possibly getting satisfaction from trying to get others to see it as you see it, is in fact highly likely to be formed because of where you lived - unless you can honestly tell me that your choice of believing in Christianity is after careful and totally unbiased and equally detailed and elaborate consideration of all possible theories out there, including Islam, Hinduism and Jedii even.

Anywhoo, on an unrelated note, I personally think people who follow religion comes in exactly two groups - first are the easily gullible group, and second, the ones who want to take advantage of the first group. Period.

Stiffler2

Ha - You are all mere mortal infidels.

After I die Allah will welcome me into his arms and provide me with 7 teenage virgins....

positron

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Ha - You are all mere mortal infidels.

After I die Allah will welcome me into his arms and provide me with 7 teenage virgins....

I think you got scammed there pal, I am getting 71!

Stiffler2

positron wrote: »

I think you got scammed there pal, I am getting 71!

well.... this is discrimination then...
is it 71 teenage virgins or a 71 year old you are getting ?

maybe you did more ramadans than I ?
Also do you face your carpet south towards the sun, perhaps this earns extra points, I am unsure.

positron

May be he has some surprise in store for you. May be each girl will morph into 7 each, or may be into 2D manga characters, May be heaven is in 2D? Hmm, who knows!! After all, some gods work in mysterious ways...!!

Run_to_da_hills

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Keep god out of after hours.

You may as well lock the thread or transfer it to the Christianity forum as the thread title will inevitably bring up the subject.

Red21

positron wrote: »

I dislike how you call it 'skeptical outlook' when someone comes to the best possible conclusion based on all known facts - where as you think your version which follows a story as the fact.



Why 500 years ago, can I ask you back, have you thought about what you would think of death if you were born and grew up in say Iran (naturally you would be a Muslim)? Or India (possibly Hindu?).

The beliefs you are holding so strongly and possibly getting satisfaction from trying to get others to see it as you see it, is in fact highly likely to be formed because of where you lived - unless you can honestly tell me that your choice of believing in Christianity is after careful and totally unbiased and equally detailed and elaborate consideration of all possible theories out there, including Islam, Hinduism and Jedii even.

Anywhoo, on an unrelated note, I personally think people who follow religion comes in exactly two groups - first are the easily gullible group, and second, the ones who want to take advantage of the first group. Period.

I used the term 'skeptical outlook' to avoid using words like atheist thats all.
I'm not religious, I simpily was looking at this thread and surprised at how many posters believe that nothing happens when you die, i'm not dissappointed or anything else just merely surprised.
Just because some peoples long held beliefs about an afterlife are looking increasingly unlikely has no bearing on whether there is or isin't one.
The question is "what do you think happens when you die?" people who answered " they believe nothing happens" or something along those lines seem to know something I don't I'm wondering what this is.

nozzferrahhtoo

Red21 wrote: »

Most people on here are saying they believe that when you die thats the end.

Do people with this skeptical outlook think, if they had lived say 500 years ago, they would've had the same outlook?

Another ways of asking is, what knowledge(if any)do we now have that we didn't have before which makes people believe so strongly that there isin't any afterlife?

It is not really about believing strongly that there is not one. It is more about failing to find any reason to think there is one. The difference is subtle but far from unimportant.

The fact remains that there simply is no evidence, argument, data or reasons on offer to suggest such a state of being exists. Which is pretty much end of conversation, except for those people.... for reasons entirely opaque to me.... who appear to quite enjoy believing things for which there is literally no reason to believe. Or those people who... even worse... think that if you make a proposition for which there is no evidence supporting it OR denying it... then whether it is true or not is 50:50.

philologos

Doc Ruby: It isn't really a flaw.

Let's do a thought experiment. If for arguments sake I knew that you were going to eat a bacon sandwich, and lo and behold, this lunchtime you have a bacon sandwich. Does this mean that I have determined this, or is it that you have decided to do so yourself?

Foreknowledge does not mean determination. Just because God knows that you are going to do something, doesn't mean that He has determined that it would be the case.

nozzferrahhtoo

Your analogy is pretty poor. That was not foreknowledge you displayed, it was a guess which turned out to be true. The different is not subtle.

Bigmac1euro

I believe there is some wort of energy or your reborn as another person and dont remember your past life because maybe there can only be so many energys/spirits/souls/personalitys in the world

seanbmc

I suppose it's like when you go for an operation and they put you under, just this time you'll never wake up.

thethingis

Red21 wrote: »

I used the term 'skeptical outlook' to avoid using words like atheist thats all.
I'm not religious, I simpily was looking at this thread and surprised at how many posters believe that nothing happens when you die, i'm not dissappointed or anything else just merely surprised.
Just because some peoples long held beliefs about an afterlife are looking increasingly unlikely has no bearing on whether there is or isin't one.
The question is "what do you think happens when you die?" people who answered " they believe nothing happens" or something along those lines seem to know something I don't I'm wondering what this is.

see pic attached .....

Doc Ruby

philologos wrote: »

Doc Ruby: It isn't really a flaw.

Let's do a thought experiment. If for arguments sake I knew that you were going to eat a bacon sandwich, and lo and behold, this lunchtime you have a bacon sandwich. Does this mean that I have determined this, or is it that you have decided to do so yourself?

Foreknowledge does not mean determination. Just because God knows that you are going to do something, doesn't mean that He has determined that it would be the case.

If God has not determined it then he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Simple logic. Too simple to be avoided. I can tell that having thought about it, even you are starting to have questions, and that's alright. I travelled down the same road myself many years ago, and I'm happy to keep travelling; sometimes the journey is the same as the destination.

amacachi

Doc Ruby wrote: »

If God has not determined it then he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Simple logic. Too simple to be avoided. I can tell that having thought about it, even you are starting to have questions, and that's alright. I travelled down the same road myself many years ago, and I'm happy to keep travelling; sometimes the journey is the same as the destination.

Oh snap yo! :pac:


As for the simulated reality idea something I saw recently kinda feeds into it. When you think about how basic the game Minecraft is the things people are making in it are incredible. Someone has managed to create a graphing calculator in it ffs. The game wasn't designed with such things in mind but it happens that they are possible. When more complex games follow the same path and maybe brand new games can be made within them we'll be one step closer to it being reality. Merging software programs that allow things like evolution and molecular evolution etc. and once computing systems catch up it'll be possible to create a low-resolution version of the Earth, or at least whatever happens within that new system based on similar starting conditions.
Deadly.

pauge2007

We all go to heaven!

ToddyDoody

Physically speaking, you move from one phase of 'the carbon cycle' to the next.. From the part that takes in organic 'carbon-based' matter and breathes out carbon dioxide and excretes carbon in waste and accumulates carbon in our body mass, to a state of decaying carbon which is decomposed by decomposers, with the bone compressed and turning to oil over millions of years, oil which may be burnt liberating the carbon into the atmosphere. As for your non-physical bits.. Fcuk it, sure you go to heaven.. Or any myth as long as its not banal

shopaholic01

We are all made from energy and energy cannot be created or destroyed. When we die and begin to decompose our constituent atoms will be released into the atmosphere. They will then combine to form new molecules/cells/organisms and the circle of life will continue. Our 'consciousness' comes from our cerebrum which will die with us, so we will not carry any awareness of past existences with us.

On a cheey note if you are buried coffin flies travel down the newly disturbed soil and lay eggs, these hatch into maggots and feed off your corpse - thumbs up for cremation!!!!

Heaven? Its up there with the tooth fairy, Easter bunny, and santa claus;)

philologos

Doc Ruby wrote: »

If God has not determined it then he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. Simple logic. Too simple to be avoided. I can tell that having thought about it, even you are starting to have questions, and that's alright. I travelled down the same road myself many years ago, and I'm happy to keep travelling; sometimes the journey is the same as the destination.

This is poor logic.

God still knows about all things in advance according to what I've said to you, but God doesn't cause it. It's rather easy, if it is possible that someone can know that something will happen and not cause it (like your eating of a bacon sandwich for example), why is the same not possible for God.

Why are you holding a different standard in one case from the other?

It's also nonsense to suggest that this renders God not omnipotent. God could just as easily have determined everything at the price of your free will, but He chose not to, as the world is better off with freely willed human beings rather than unfreely willed.

Joey the lips

I dont know if there is a heaven but knowing my look if there is and i am on the plane it will crash and i will end up in hell.

Life is just that sitty for me. The only reason i hang around is to see what happens next.

Doc Ruby

philologos wrote: »

God still knows about all things in advance according to what I've said to you, but God doesn't cause it.

Ignoring all else, if god knows all things in advance then there isn't free will, just a predetermined railroad. So what's with the judging of the dead?

As for causing it, according to your theology god created everything and therefore is responsible for everything. If god can also see everything in advance, then god most certainly did cause it.

philologos

^^ I've explained to you in my previous posts how that isn't the case. Foreknowledge != determination. I've clearly shown you an example as to how that is the case. If I had knowledge that you will have a bacon sandwich today, that does not mean that I decided this for you.

Doc Ruby

philologos wrote: »

If I had knowledge that you will have a bacon sandwich today, that does not mean that I decided this for you.

If you created a universe where you knew at the moment of creation that I'd have a bacon sandwich today, you have in fact decided it for me.

Seriously, every religion that claims it's deity is all poweful/all seeing eventually runs into this paradox. That the conflict exists is not even an issue in question.

Doc Ruby

Here, don't take my word for it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Islam

The core Islamic belief is that man has been given free will in this life, and reward or retribution in the hereafter is based on how he utilizes his freedom of choice in the worldly trial. Reconciling free will with the notion of predestination is one of the most complex issues in Islamic theology. Scholars have responded to this problem by stating that God is independent of space-time, and hence al-Qadr actually refers not to predestination (which has the notion of time) but to his knowledge of all events and actions, irrespective of time. Thus, who will go to Hell and who will enter Heaven is known (not predetermined) by God, but man will always bear the fruit of his actions. The issue can be solved only by considering God and man independently, and not on the same scale.

Now if that sounds like freewheeling bullshit cobbled together by some guys long after some other guy declared god all knowing and seeing, while simultaneously allowing man free will...

...that's because it is.

philologos

philologos wrote: »

Doc Ruby: It isn't really a flaw.

Let's do a thought experiment. If for arguments sake I knew that you were going to eat a bacon sandwich, and lo and behold, this lunchtime you have a bacon sandwich. Does this mean that I have determined this, or is it that you have decided to do so yourself?

Foreknowledge does not mean determination. Just because God knows that you are going to do something, doesn't mean that He has determined that it would be the case.

so god isn't omnipotent then. i see.

philologos

bluewolf wrote: »

philologos wrote: »

Doc Ruby: It isn't really a flaw.

Let's do a thought experiment. If for arguments sake I knew that you were going to eat a bacon sandwich, and lo and behold, this lunchtime you have a bacon sandwich. Does this mean that I have determined this, or is it that you have decided to do so yourself?

Foreknowledge does not mean determination. Just because God knows that you are going to do something, doesn't mean that He has determined that it would be the case.

so god isn't omnipotent then. i see.

Where did I say that?

I've very clearly said God could determine everything but He doesn't. He chose not to.

God created me. I highly doubt that he actively determines what I'll eat for lunch. Even if He knows in advance. God knows how I'll exercise my free will but Biblically he doesn't determine everything beforehand. Observation with foreknowledge simply isn't the same logically as determination.

The problem with making cute little analogies involving us and lunch is that we're not omniscient.
If i create a situation knowing fully all outcomes as a result of the specific way i create it, then yes, i have determined the outcome

philologos

bluewolf wrote: »

The problem with making cute little analogies involving us and lunch is that we're not omniscient.
If i create a situation knowing fully all outcomes as a result of the specific way i create it, then yes, i have determined the outcome

God's creating people with free will. Knowledge of an action and an action in and of itself are different.

Parents aren't legally responsible for the actions that their children may take in the future. Likewise God isn't responsible if we rebel against His standard we are!

Knowledge of the wills outcome is not the same as puppeteering.

philologos

philologos wrote: »

God's creating people with free will. Knowledge of an action and an action in and of itself are different.

Except that god is supposed to be omniscient and therefore knew what was happening and what would happen in the future when creating it.
Knowing that people were created with free will doesn't change the fact that god is supposed to be omniscient.

Parents aren't legally responsible for the actions that their children may take in the future.

Parents are not omniscient.

(I also note that parents don't take it upon themselves to condemn children to hell if children don't do as they're told, but that's another issue)

Knowledge of the wills outcome is not the same as puppeteering.

Except when combined with omnipotence and creation of the starting conditions.

Your arguments are fine when arguing one thing or the other, but you're running into a problem when you put both together.
The parents thing is fine for creation (omnipotence) when not combined with omniscience.
Knowing the outcome not determining it is fine (omniscience) when not combined with omnipotence & creation.

Kidchameleon

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Our 'consciousness' comes from our cerebrum which will die with us, so we will not carry any awareness of past existences with us.

You got any scientific evidence to back that up or is it a belief of yours?

Run_to_da_hills

pauge2007 wrote: »

We all go to heaven!

No, only a very few make it. Matthew 7 vs 12:14

shizz

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No, only a very few make it. Matthew 7 vs 12:14

That is awful to read.

Deki

Really? If you aren't buying this then why is it awful to read? I believe there is only one gate and that gate is through belief in Jesus Christ, so doesn't really seem so awful to me.

Babybuff

What do you think happens when you die?

you stop being afraid

shizz

Deki wrote: »

Really? If you aren't buying this then why is it awful to read? I believe there is only one gate and that gate is through belief in Jesus Christ, so doesn't really seem so awful to me.

What I meant was the passage is awful to read. Open to so many interpretations and written in ridiculous bronze age mythology language. It is preposterous to believe in something written by those people as fact. Simple stories told by impressionable people, only believed by other impressionable people.

Deki

Ok. I will accept what you think as your belief. I will go on believing what I believe.

Giselle

Deki wrote: »

Ok. I will accept what you think as your belief. I will go on believing what I believe.

Or what you THINK you believe.

We can all play that game.

I BELIEVE that when I die I will merely cease to exist. I think its a very liberating and empowering way to live.

You have one shot, make it count.