Household Charge

Mouldy Mary

The Secretary of our management company says the company must pay everyone's service charge because it owns all of the apartments. I paid €300k for my apartment so surely I am the owner? He says I am only a tenant and if I look at my title documents I will see this. I have never seen my title documents. My solicitor was struck off a few years ago so I can't check it out.

Slydice

that sounds wierd, surely you own your apartment and not them.

Milk & Honey

Legally the secretary is right. Apartment "owners" have a long lease, typically 500 years at a low rent. There is a danger that if the charge is not paid the management company could be pursued.

Kaner2004

Yes and its probably not in your lease that they can chase you for it.
They'll just have to pay it and add on to the yearly service charge in future.
Revenue certainly cant chase you for it. Loophole blown wide open.

Now everyone who lives in an apartment knows they can just not pay and they cannot be dealt any punishment. No matter how loud the government shout to try to scare them into it.

JuliusCaesar

Mouldy Mary wrote: »

if I look at my title documents I will see this. I have never seen my title documents. My solicitor was struck off a few years ago so I can't check it out.

Your mortgage company will have the title documents. They should give you a photocopy if you ask.

Milk & Honey

There is usually a clause in the lease stating that the lessee has to indemnify the lessor for any charges which have to be discharged by the lessor.

Kaner2004

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There is usually a clause in the lease stating that the lessee has to indemnify the lessor for any charges which have to be discharged by the lessor.

So they'll have to add it to the yearly fees.
It still means that individuals dont have to worry about being chased by the government into their wage packets for not paying the fee.

Then management companies will be responsible for paying and can then send out bills. Then the fight will be with the management company.

This may be where the household charge falls over.
Best bet is to alter it so that the person living in the property is liable for the charge, not the owner. Like the UK council tax. The person who consumes the services pays for them. They would take in more money that way anyway.

Mouldy Mary

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Mouldy Mary wrote: »

if I look at my title documents I will see this. I have never seen my title documents. My solicitor was struck off a few years ago so I can't check it out.

Your mortgage company will have the title documents. They should give you a photocopy if you ask.

I don't have a mortgage. I bought the apartment after I sold my house.

athtrasna

I "own" my apartment and paid my own household charge. We have a 1000 year lease from the owners, the management company. Have looked at the household charge website again, and note the phraseology. Will be seeking legal advice tomorrow in my role as a director of the management company, it's almost €10k for the development and not in our budget!

JuliusCaesar

Mouldy Mary wrote: »

I don't have a mortgage. I bought the apartment after I sold my house.

Then you should have the title deeds. Most people then either
keep them
ask the bank to keep them - and pay for the privilage
ask the solicitor to keep them

If your solicitor had them, and was then struck off, then you should contact the Law Society. You need to know where they are. Without the title deeds, you cannot prove that you own the apartment.

Kaner2004

athtrasna wrote: »

I "own" my apartment and paid my own household charge. We have a 1000 year lease from the owners, the management company. Have looked at the household charge website again, and note the phraseology. Will be seeking legal advice tomorrow in my role as a director of the management company, it's almost €10k for the development and not in our budget!

athtrasna wrote: »

If you "buy" an apartment you actually are taking out a long lease (typically 100 years) from the management company for your apartment. This gives you exclusive use of the internal space and any balconies or patios but you do not own anything. You also become a member of the management company.

I think the latter quote is correct. Though I suppose you can spin it whatever way suits. But the politicians have made a massive boo boo here.

The wording clearly uses the word "Ownership"

athtrasna

Our MA is checking it out. Doesn't seem concerned at this stage but said that if it ends up including water charges it will certainly be a MC payment then.

I always refer to myself as someone who "owns" an apartment, with those quotes because yes I did complete a transaction which gave me this apartment but I am aware that it is a lease and that brings rights and responsibilities, now if only more of my neighbours did

kronas

I'm just wondering, I don’t own my house until I pay the last payment on my morgage, So does the bank not own my house at the moment? should they not be paying "my" household charge/tax? An this whole ring fenced for local services, is that not what my management company does because the county council has not taken over as of yet? why should I pay?
Starting a revolution )

quozl

kronas wrote: »

I'm just wondering, I don’t own my house until I pay the last payment on my morgage,

Your premise is wrong. You do own it. You just have a very large debt for which it is placed as security.

Nice try

jdq

I cannot understand why if I own/occupy the apartment and pay 300 euros mgment charges for the local facilities I have to pay this, makes no sense to me...

Lantus

is this true of houses that are managed under a management company as well or just apartments?

ProudDUB

jdq wrote: »

I cannot understand why if I own/occupy the apartment and pay 300 euros mgment charges for the local facilities I have to pay this, makes no sense to me...

Your 300 euro management fee goes to pay for upkeep and maintenance of the common areas in your apt complex...roof repairs, lift repairs, painting and lighting and cleaning of hall ways, planting flowers and cutting the grass out doors etc etc. It is specific to the apt building or development that you live in & nothing more.

The household charge goes to pay for facilities in your town/neighbourhood such as street lighting, libraries, parks, swimming pools, street lighting, play grounds etc etc. They are two completely different things.

athtrasna

Lantus wrote: »

is this true of houses that are managed under a management company as well or just apartments?

No. If you own a house you actually own the building, you sign deeds of purchase whereas it's a lease for apartments.

Santa Claus

athtrasna wrote: »

No. If you own a house you actually own the building, you sign deeds of purchase whereas it's a lease for apartments.

What would be the situation with townhouses in an apartment development that back on to the apartment building...i.e. the town house is not detached from the apartment block, so if I own the townhouse then do I own the rear wall of the townhouse which is also one part of one of the supporting walls of the apartment block ?

athtrasna

You would have to check to see whether you have a lease or deeds.

Grolschevik

From Legal Discussion:

Depends on whether the lease is for more or less than 20 years, the definition of "owner" in the 2011 Local Government (Household Charges) Act 2011

Quote:
“owner”, in relation to a residential property, means—

(a) a person (other than a mortgagee not in possession) who—

(i) in the case of a residential property that is let under a lease or held under a tenancy for a term not exceeding 20 years, is entitled to receive the rent under that lease or tenancy whether in his or her own right or as trustee or agent for another person, or

(ii) in the case of a residential property that is not so let or so held, would, subject to paragraph (b), be so entitled if the residential property were so let or so held, whether in that person’s own right or as trustee or agent for another person,

or

(b) where the property is let under a lease or held under a tenancy for a term exceeding 20 years, the person (other than a mortgagee not in possession) who is the lessee under that lease or tenant under that tenancy;


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77831653#post77831653

HicksLennon

Does anyone know how many have paid the household charge at this stage??

Zamboni

HicksLennon wrote: »

Does anyone know how many have paid the household charge at this stage??

There is not a person alive that knows the answer to that question.

Fuinseog

does anyone know what the current situation is regarding the household charge. My gf and I paid it in January and now we feel like fools cos so many have not paid it and nothing is being done about it. maybe we should not pay it next year.

My non national friends find it unusual that members of parliament advocate that people break the law.

Highly Salami

Fuinseog wrote: »

does anyone know what the current situation is regarding the household charge. My gf and I paid it in January and now we feel like fools cos so many have not paid it and nothing is being done about it. maybe we should not pay it next year.

Nearly half the householders in the country have not paid it. I wouldn't bother paying next year, it is really a tax on stupidity and spinelessness.

Fuinseog wrote: »

My non national friends find it unusual that members of parliament advocate that people break the law.

We in Ireland have a democratic system of government, where the rulers are actually considered accountable to the people they rule. As a result we have this thing called freedom where we don't have to suffer under unjust rules or taxes etc.

Xantia

ProudDUB wrote: »

The household charge goes to pay for facilities in your town/neighbourhood such as street lighting, libraries, parks, swimming pools, street lighting, play grounds etc etc.

It doesn't go towards these 'facilities'
here it is in plain print - it goes to pay the bankers....
Quote from department of environment website
The EU/IMF Programme of Financial Support for Ireland commits the Government to the introduction of a property tax for 2012.
If it went to pay for these 'facilities' how come they are already there and working and already being paid for?

tim9002

Xantia wrote: »

It doesn't go towards these 'facilities'
here it is in plain print - it goes to pay the bankers....
Quote from department of environment website
The EU/IMF Programme of Financial Support for Ireland commits the Government to the introduction of a property tax for 2012.
If it went to pay for these 'facilities' how come they are already there and working and already being paid for?

Beacuse as a country more goes out than comes in, regardless of the bank problem. The introduction of a property tax was a condition of the loans the country receives to fill that gap. When you have to go to the lender of last resort it comes with some serious T&Cs.

Xantia

The OP should take example from the 'minister' that introduced this fiasco.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/phil-hogan-refuses-to-pay-4k-service-charges-on-his-portugal-holiday-penthouse-3067684.html

Zamboni

Xantia wrote: »

The OP should take example from the 'minister' that introduced this fiasco.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/phil-hogan-refuses-to-pay-4k-service-charges-on-his-portugal-holiday-penthouse-3067684.html

Phil Hogan wrote:

"Would you pay a charge if you were unhappy with the service?" he asked.

Haha brillilant Phil!
Can you imagine if all the people that did pay the household charge took his advice next time around?

He is a bufoon and a hypocrite.

Fuinseog

I would prefer not to pay any tax, but am obliged to do so. I feel a fool for forking out 100 euro when apparently over 500,000 are refusing to do so and getting away with it.

tim9002

Fuinseog wrote: »

I would prefer not to pay any tax, but am obliged to do so. I feel a fool for forking out 100 euro when apparently over 500,000 are refusing to do so and getting away with it.

But they won't get away with it. The charge plus interest and penalties will remain outstanding. It will have to be paid before a property can be sold or taken from the estate if deceased.