Household Charge

PCPhoto

Fuinseog wrote: »

I would prefer not to pay any tax, but am obliged to do so. I feel a fool for forking out 100 euro when apparently over 500,000 are refusing to do so and getting away with it.

"getting away with it" suggests some way of avoidance - the people who have not paid this tax are simply standing up for their rights* - they want to see it justified and explained where the money will be going and why it is set at this amount.

The government are very quick to say its €100 now - but from leaked reports/whispers/rumours it could go up to €1000 for some people after its officially introduced/mandatory in 2014 (part of bailout agreement was that it would be brought in by 2014)

The people who have refused simply want clarity and accountability amongst civil servants whom this money is supposed to be going to* - if I give €500 to a government organisation I want to know that €500 will be used for a decent service because I know I cant get the money back and I'm well aware of the documentated cases of civil servants making mistakes - yet no public punishments ... no-one looses their job when they are a civil servant and makes a gross error costing the public purse money** (suppose same goes for politicians).

* = just my opinion
** = again .... just my opinion - do not want this to turn into a civil service bashing thread.

PCPhoto

tim9002 wrote: »

But they won't get away with it. The charge plus interest and penalties will remain outstanding. It will have to be paid before a property can be sold or taken from the estate if deceased.

you are assuming that the property tax will not be scrapped...and monies collected will disappear into the public purse.

if the government wanted to fund local services they could simply have given themselves a 10% cut and stopped travelling abroad for a year to "essential" conferences in exotic locations (its amazing how none of these conferences take place in Athlone/Bray/Lisburn/Kilmallock...no offence intended to anyone living in these places - just the first few places that popped into my head)

if it was simply about raising finances they could easily have done it - but this is about creating a database of home owners whom they can tax (household tax, water rates, etc etc are all coming down the line) - the general public cannot afford further taxation and like most other laws in this country - those that have money and can afford to pay - will more than likely pay someone to find a loophole or a loophole will already exist so they can avoid paying.

tim9002

It won't be scrapped. The state is having to borrow vast sums of money every year and needs other forms of taxation to fund the deficit. Yes costs of government have to fall and become more efficient also.

We did have a property tax called stamp duty that was very unfair. It mainly targeted people who needed to move house for a new job or trade up to accomodate a growing family. Some people paid tens of thousands in stamp duty in the last ten years while many paid little or nothing. Annual property tax/council tax that takes into account ability to pay is a much fairer system than high stamp duty rates.

As the household charge is only for this year and the planned property tax/council tax due to kick in next year we'll have to wait and see how fair they make it.

Zamboni

tim9002 wrote: »

It won't be scrapped. The state is having to borrow vast sums of money every year and needs other forms of taxation to fund the deficit. Yes costs of government have to fall and become more efficient also.

We did have a property tax called stamp duty that was very unfair. It mainly targeted people who needed to move house for a new job or trade up to accomodate a growing family. Some people paid tens of thousands in stamp duty in the last ten years while many paid little or nothing. Annual property tax/council tax that takes into account ability to pay is a much fairer system than high stamp duty rates.

As the household charge is only for this year and the planned property tax/council tax due to kick in next year we'll have to wait and see how fair they make it.

Taxing earnings and use of services/products are fair. Taxing ownership isn't.
How do you figure that the many people who are unemployed and in NE have an ability to pay?

tim9002

Zamboni wrote: »

Taxing earnings and use of services/products are fair. Taxing ownership isn't.
How do you figure that the many people who are unemployed and in NE have an ability to pay?

I don't think it should be based purely on ownership. In France the tax is split in two, an owners and a residents tax. If someone is renting they pay the residents part.

We'll have to wait to see the details of the tax and see what allowances are made for people that are unemployed. What's NE got to do with things if you are working, can afford the mortgage and have no intention of moving?

faceman

ProudDUB wrote: »

The household charge goes to pay for facilities in your town/neighbourhood such as street lighting, libraries, parks, swimming pools, street lighting, play grounds etc etc. They are two completely different things.

Thats slightly incorrect. The household charge goes toward paying for "local services" but not necessarily local services in your area. That was confirmed in an interview Hogan at the time the deadline was approaching.

Fuinseog

Zamboni wrote: »

Taxing earnings and use of services/products are fair. Taxing ownership isn't.
How do you figure that the many people who are unemployed and in NE have an ability to pay?

even the poorest homeowner can rise to 2 euro a week. we got ourselves into this mess. now we have to pay the price. nobody the government to save money during the boom. folks were happy to vote FF knowing full well they were corrupt.

we find ourselves in a hole and every tax payer has an obligation to help dig us out.

Fuinseog

faceman wrote: »

Thats slightly incorrect. The household charge goes toward paying for "local services" but not necessarily local services in your area. That was confirmed in an interview Hogan at the time the deadline was approaching.

unfortunately this seems to be the case.

Zamboni

Fuinseog wrote: »

even the poorest homeowner can rise to 2 euro a week. we got ourselves into this mess. now we have to pay the price. nobody the government to save money during the boom. folks were happy to vote FF knowing full well they were corrupt.

we find ourselves in a hole and every tax payer has an obligation to help dig us out.

That hole is not dig-outable.
The tax payer has an obligation to pay tax toward welfare state/services etc. They do not have a responsibility to private banking debt.

The_Conductor

Zamboni wrote: »

That hole is not dig-outable.
The tax payer has an obligation to pay tax toward welfare state/services etc. They do not have a responsibility to private banking debt.

The current proposals up for discussion are to treat bailout money for the banking sectors (in all bailout situations) separately from sovereign debt- and to ringfence them in this manner. The intention with the financial transaction tax- is to act as a buffer for the financial sector in future- and if/when financial institutions get into difficulty- they are treated as independent of their sovereigns. Unfortunately- we are not included in this- as we voted against it this week (17 of the 25 EU countries have voted in favour- Ireland fears we will loose financial sector jobs if we implement it and the UK/Netherlands/Luxembourg etc do not).

We mutualised our bank debts- whether we like it or not- and if we're not willing to sign up to alternate arrangements to deal with them- they are the obligations of the tax payer. Is it fair? Hell, no- but its what we agreed to. Until such time as we are allowed an alternate mechanism for dealing with the debts- we must account for them.........

Of far bigger concern than the one off hit (for the purposes of accouting for national debt) we are taking on bank debt- is that even after all our cutbacks- we're still running a budget deficit of over 14 billion per annum. This means our national debt is growing by this amount- and we have no credible plan for reducing/eliminating this (though we have signed up to reduce it to 3% of GDP per annum- having passed the Fiscal Compact)

athtrasna

Surely the bottom line is the law says you must pay the household charge (irrespective of what it is used for). Those who didn't pay will face action of some kind at some time. As a law abiding citizen I paid, not willingly but I did it.

The_Conductor

athtrasna wrote: »

Surely the bottom line is the law says you must pay the household charge (irrespective of what it is used for). Those who didn't pay will face action of some kind at some time. As a law abiding citizen I paid, not willingly but I did it.

You have it there in a nutshell.
I paid, unwillingly, too.

Xantia

athtrasna wrote: »

Surely the bottom line is the law says you must pay the household charge (irrespective of what it is used for). Those who didn't pay will face action of some kind at some time. As a law abiding citizen I paid, not willingly but I did it.

What Law?
I heard no law.
I pay all my tax by PAYE, why should I now pay by just 'knowing there is a law'.
If I was self employed it would be my duty to know tax laws.

I didn't pay and have no intention of paying.
Its not the €100 - I have that here in an envelope - all FG/FF and Labour have to do is call to my door to explain why they are paying off bankers and gamblers and I will hand it over.

What will happen is that they will take it out of my pay.

I am a law abiding citizen but some so called laws are unjust.
My neighbour wont be able to afford this tax/charge.
More quangos setup to collect more money.
More bills to pay.

Get real - increase income tax to pay the bankers and then change the government....

Millions wasted on the e-voting fiasco,
ministers who wont even pay their own charges on their overseas property.
Civil Service pay scales off the scales.
HSE and the so called 'health service' top heavy with Civil Servants.
and on and on.
And now more civil servants to collect an unjust tax/charge just to pay the bondholders?
What have we become?
Where is democracy?

athtrasna

Xantia wrote: »

What Law?
I heard no law.

Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011

Xantia

athtrasna wrote: »

Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011

As an ordinary citizen of this country it is not my job to be looking up 'laws'.

When they knock on my door looking for the money we will take it from there.

I am quite sure if I go into my local Garda Station and ask them if I have broken any law and tell them I did not pay a charge they would laugh at me.

Stand up - dont pay.....

Enough is enough

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/phil-hogan-refuses-to-pay-4k-service-charges-on-his-portugal-holiday-penthouse-3067684.html

Grolschevik

Xantia wrote: »

I didn't pay and have no intention of paying.

I am a law abiding citizen

No, you are not.

Xantia wrote: »

Where is democracy?

And democracy is what elected this government and enacted the law that you are disobeying. Democracy isn't a synonym for "rule by Joe Duffy callers".

Grolschevik

Xantia wrote: »

As an ordinary citizen of this country it is not my job to be looking up 'laws'.

"Ah Jaysus, yer honour, shure I didn't know it was illegal to [insert crime here], nobody called to me door and told told me, shure I'm just an ordinary Joe, I can't be lookin' up them there so-called 'laws', that's not my job... Can I see your oath of office, by the way?"

The_Conductor

Play nice.......

Xantia

I have no idea what tangents ye are off on.

The minimum required is that they make me aware that I 'owe' them money.
They did not even have the courtesy to send me a bill/invoice.

You guys obviously are FF/FG/Lab, Queued up to pay the €100 on the first day and never broke a law in your lives.

By the way 'democracy' did not elect this government,
we vote for TD's - THEY decided to join together two parties to make a government - we didnt.

Never rang Joe Duffy and never listen to him or programs like that - shure I probably still need a Radio Licence for that....

Why would I ask a Judge about his office - what is all this about?

As for people conforming with laws - maybe the man who bullied people into paying this might explain why he does not pay his own charges on his house in Portugal?

As for democracy, the definition closest to hand is as follows:
Democracy is an egalitarian form of government in which all the citizens of a nation together determine public policy, the laws and the actions of their state, requiring that all citizens (meeting certain qualifications) have an equal opportunity to express their opinion.

tim9002

Xantia wrote: »

What Law?
I heard no law.
I pay all my tax by PAYE, why should I now pay by just 'knowing there is a law'.
If I was self employed it would be my duty to know tax laws.

I bet you know about TV licence, car tax etc., that you have to pay yourself. Ignornace is not an excuse!

Xantia

Of course I know - when I bought my first TV I was put on the list and had to pay the licence.
It is a PRE-condition of owning a TV.
I get a reminder if its not paid.
I can see that the money is going for good or bad to RTÉ et al.

When I bought a car I had to pay car tax - it is a precondition - I get to use the roads etc.

With a so called 'household charge' what do I get?
Do I get to 'use my house' now??
Do I get to know where the money goes?
Apparently it is supposed to go to local services yet we all know its to pay the bank debt - it even said this on the DOE website.

If I dont want a car I dont have to pay car tax.
If I dont want a TV I dont have to pay a TV licence.

So now I cant have a house without a licence???

Why not join with the minister who started this fiasco and let us all go by his hypocrite example
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/phil-hogan-refuses-to-pay-4k-service-charges-on-his-portugal-holiday-penthouse-3067684.html

markpb

Xantia wrote: »

As for democracy, the definition closest to hand is as follows:
Democracy is an egalitarian form of government in which all the citizens of a nation together determine public policy, the laws and the actions of their state, requiring that all citizens (meeting certain qualifications) have an equal opportunity to express their opinion.

Irrelevant. Ireland is a parliamentary republic, not a democracy. We democratically elect TDs and they decide how to form a government and which laws to enact. If you want a democracy, move to Switzerland.

Also, when you buy a TV (or least, when I bought my TV) no-one told me that I needed a TV license and it certainly wasn't a precondition. When you buy a second hand car, no-one tells you that you need to tax it. It's your obligation to know the laws of the country you live in - ignorance is not the excuse you seem to think it is.

Xantia

So according to your post -

I need to licence my house.
I need to know the law.


If I start to drive a car - I have to learn the rules of the road, Get Insurance, Tax, Licence.
It has always been that way.

If I get a TV I get a licence - yes it was part of buying a TV back in the day when TV's were rented that you registered to get a licence.

But now when I buy a house I have to register and pay money every year for the benefit of owning a house.

TV's and Car's could be construed as luxury items, a house surely is not.

Taxes should be
Easy to collect - this 'charge' has not been easy to collect or to pay to councils.
Should be based on ability to pay - it is not based on ability to pay with all householders from rich to poor having to pay the same.

With regard to the root cause of this unjust charge we should follow the example of Iceland.
http://www.smallplanet.gr/en/documentaries/chronologically/2011-2012/305-the-viking-way

It is strange with all the problems that we have had in Ireland that it is only now that politicians are being brought to book for what they have done.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0628/1224318892361.html

Victor

Xantia wrote: »

You guys obviously are FF/FG/Lab,

Attack the post, not the poster.

You might ease off on the aggressive posting as well

Xantia

Apologies.

ART6

After all of the speculation about how this charge will be assessed (self-assessment, wild guess, potential rental value, ground area or the colour of the front door) it now seems that the element of self-assessment will involve consulting a Revenue web site which will produce a tax band value based upon area, facilities, number of rooms, etc. Can we then assume that the values established will be as accurate of those used by the Revenue to assess the value of imported cars for VRT? Or will it be just too much of a temptation to inflate the values to improve revenue? I am not holding my breath!

I recently had my house professionally valued for a quite different reason. It will be interesting to see what the Revenue's valuation is in comparison. One such band proposed is for values between €150k and €300k. If my house happens the be assessed as worth €151k, that will move me up into a liability of around €300 extra a year. The possibilities for screwing the already screwed people are endless:mad: