My issue with Jimmy Page

nyarlothothep

I like Led Zeppelin. I like Jimmy Page. I like his guitar playing. Yet I don't like his guitar playing. His tone is bad. I've never heard such horrible sounds from a guitar, sometimes its too dry and nasal like on Out on the Tiles, other times its too thin as on Heartbreaker. Yet for some reason I like his sh1tty guitar sounds. I like Physical Graffiti even though its an overrated album by a band that sounds burnt out because it breathes, it sounds organic in part because of the mistakes and the sound quality being very dodgy at times especially on The Rover. It's certainly better imo than that other "organic" album Heritage because Heritage is too perfect and too nice, its not real. Technically his playing is like Jackie Chan to Hendrix's Bruce Lee, very stacatto, not fluid, intentional and therefore creative but not flowing from the wellspring of creativity, moreso engineered, designed. Hendrix was just spontaneously imaginative and very fluid. That's not to say that Page through Led Zeppelin came up with songs which are unforgettably brilliant. However I think Brian May, Hendrix, Gilmour had nicer guitar tones and played a bit better.

dr.bollocko

You'd have to make a definition through which we could measure how pleasing a certain tone is and how playing better is defined. For me, I would level similar accusations at Hendrix. But not at Jimmy Page. From his time as a session musician I think he really learned how to play on a record and always knew what sound he wanted to make throughout each song.

nyarlothothep

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JybkqBGrVs

Check this out, the guitar playing is sloppy, the tone is nasal, fat and wasted, there is a big mistake in the solo at the end.

Also check out this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_gzTwPfO-I

Or this, the playing is ok although he hits some wrong notes, but the tone is that awful distortion sitting on top of a clean tone. Really don't dig that.

The playing of the solo in Heartbreaker is very bitty, it doesn't flow.

mike65

Its called colour/texture! Page often used (uses?) a thick earthy sound, to great effect as on say The Rover (Physical Graffiti) some would call it muddy of course but I guess the issue is does it sound right? On Presence its got a fabulous 'iron girder meets angle grinder' vibe. Nasty and durty :pac:

nyarlothothep

mike65 wrote: »

Its called colour/texture! Page often used (uses?) a thick earthy sound, to great effect as on say The Rover (Physical Graffiti) some would call it muddy of course but I guess the issue is does it sound right? On Presence its got a fabulous 'iron girder meets angle grinder' vibe. Nasty and durty :pac:

I think a lot of the problems have to do with the fact that he plays a gibson.

slavetothegrind

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I think a lot of the problems have to do with the fact that he plays a gibson.

now thats just silly, that post. Sit that man down with any guitar, plug it in to any amplifier and set it up yourself and he will be great.

What do you mean it's down to gibson?

I've never heard gibson tone described as thin!!!

nyarlothothep

slavetothegrind wrote: »

now thats just silly, that post. Sit that man down with any guitar, plug it in to any amplifier and set it up yourself and he will be great.

What do you mean it's down to gibson?

I've never heard gibson tone described as thin!!!

No, he managed to make it sound thin though, the Heartbreaker solo is a perfect example. Gibsons are terrible guitars and don't help imo, their renowned pickups sound horrible to me, they sound like tin box transitor radio guitars, they don't breath natural electricity through the air like Fenders do.

Jimbob 83

For some reaosn i read it as Jimmy Nail and i flew in to defend him then realised my mistake

gizmo

nyarlothothep wrote: »

No, he managed to make it sound thin though, the Heartbreaker solo is a perfect example. Gibsons are terrible guitars and don't help imo, their renowned pickups sound horrible to me, they sound like tin box transitor radio guitars, they don't breath natural electricity through the air like Fenders do.

Are you referring to his '59 LPs?

slavetothegrind

i do respect your opinion but i do disagree, i like fenders also but two different animals they are.

Sure if we all agreed music would be electronic precision!!:pac:

But seriously i love a good lp neck pickup bluesing the hell out of it and then to a no.3 burstbucker on the bridge giving it some gary moore...mmmmmm!

you should play my explorer and see how terrible it isn't! Was surprised myself!!!!

nyarlothothep

gizmo wrote: »

Are you referring to his '59 LPs?

I was referring to all gibsons, rarely do they sound good. They sound terrible when AC/DC use them, (horrible harsh airy sound) they sound terrible on acid jazz records, they sound terrible on Ziggy Played Guitar (tin box). The only time a gibson has sounded adequate, and just barely adequate is on Appetite for Destruction and even then it sounds very dry.

delbertgrady

nyarlothothep wrote: »

The only time a Gibson has sounded adequate, and just barely adequate is on Appetite for Destruction and even then it sounds very dry.

Each to their own, but in five posts, you've gone from saying you dislike Jimmy Page's playing to effectively dismissing ANY performance ever recorded on a Gibson guitar.
Clearly, you don't own a copy of The Who Live at Leeds.
Or Neil Young and Crazy Horse's Weld.
Or anything by Frank Zappa.

Angron

nyarlothothep wrote: »

No, he managed to make it sound thin though, the Heartbreaker solo is a perfect example. Gibsons are terrible guitars and don't help imo, their renowned pickups sound horrible to me, they sound like tin box transitor radio guitars, they don't breath natural electricity through the air like Fenders do.

Just out of curiosity, what is your favourite guitar manufacturer?

nyarlothothep

Denny M wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what is your favourite guitar manufacturer?

Fender


or Ibanez



Nothing else matters

Banjo

Hold on, didn't Page primarily play a Tele (sorry, *the* Tele) on Led Zep I and most (if not all) of II?

Also, Slash didn't play a Gibson on Appetite, it was a knock-off. Does that make you feel less dirty about almost liking the tone?

Malice

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Fender
or Ibanez
Nothing else matters

I wholeheartedly endorse this opinion .

Banjo wrote: »

Also, Slash didn't play a Gibson on Appetite, it was a knock-off.

Are you sure? There is some info here but it doesn't seem to definitively state one way or the other what he used.

Banjo

Re : Slash - in his book he indicated that early in the Appetite recording sessions he was having trouble getting the tone right and their manager got him a '59 LP replica made by a local luthier, and that was his #1 for recording and touring for years. Think I remember the same story from a Guitar World interview from the 90's. Could all be part of the Appetite tone myth, but if so he was circulating it long before all that Appetite hardware was being flogged which would be an awful lot of forethought for a chap who very probably doesn't check for paper till after he's taken a dump.

slavetothegrind

Banjo is totally right about slashes guitar back then! Shocked at the lack of love for gibsons lads shocked!!!! :-0

Malice

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Shocked at the lack of love for gibsons lads shocked!!!! :-0

Just goes to show we've got taste in electric guitars and aren't swayed by brand names .

dr.bollocko

http://www.woodytone.com/2009/07/21/jimmy-pages-heartbreaker-tone-details/

Interesting article on the tone in the heartbreaker solo.

Guitar_Monkey

(shaking head)....no....just no. The mind boggles !

120_Minutes

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I was referring to all gibsons, rarely do they sound good. They sound terrible when AC/DC use them, (horrible harsh airy sound) they sound terrible on acid jazz records, they sound terrible on Ziggy Played Guitar (tin box). The only time a gibson has sounded adequate, and just barely adequate is on Appetite for Destruction and even then it sounds very dry.

You are stating an opinion. Not fact. For every Gibson tone you don't like, I could possibly name three that I like.

They're revered for a reason. And the reason is certain models are good and a few of them are great.

Rented Mule

nyarlothothep wrote: »

The only time a gibson has sounded adequate, and just barely adequate is on Appetite for Destruction and even then it sounds very dry.

That's funny because you won't find a single Gibson on that album. The guitar that Slash plays on the album is a Chris Derrig Les Paul 'bootleg copy'.

While Gibson will try to sell you the 'Appetite for Destruction' Les Paul, it is in fact a 'copy of a copy'.

Rented Mule

Banjo wrote: »

Re : Slash - in his book he indicated that early in the Appetite recording sessions he was having trouble getting the tone right and their manager got him a '59 LP replica made by a local luthier, and that was his #1 for recording and touring for years. Think I remember the same story from a Guitar World interview from the 90's. Could all be part of the Appetite tone myth, but if so he was circulating it long before all that Appetite hardware was being flogged which would be an awful lot of forethought for a chap who very probably doesn't check for paper till after he's taken a dump.

You are correct. Chris Derrig was the luthier that you are referring to.

Rented Mule

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I think a lot of the problems have to do with the fact that he plays a gibson.

That all depends on at what point in his career we are talking about. Jimmy also played his Telecaster quite a bit in the studio as well as a variety of other guitars besides his Les Pauls.

bnt

Banjo wrote: »

Hold on, didn't Page primarily play a Tele (sorry, *the* Tele) on Led Zep I and most (if not all) of II?

He used all kinds of guitars in the studio. For example, Stairway To Heaven has no Gibson on it at all. The 12-string is a Rickenbacker and the solo is the Telecaster.

Now, if you ask me about good Gibson sounds, I'll name two:
- the SG Jr. in the hands of Mike Oldfield & his fingernails e.g. In Dulci Jubilo.
- the ES355 used by Alex Lifeson on early Rush albums.
:cool:

stateofflux

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Banjo is totally right about slashes guitar back then! Shocked at the lack of love for gibsons lads shocked!!!! :-0

ive played fenders for years, jags, strats, teles....the day i plugged in a les paul standard i never looked back. has more power and low end resonance than any guitar ive ever played & is just as tonally versatile as a strat.

jimmy page was a sloppy player, but its part of what makes him jimmy page...i love the mistakes, hendrix made them too...if i want note perfection id buy a neo classical album (which will never happen)

120_Minutes

...and if any piece of evidence dismisses nyar's argument it's this.

Page customised the wiring on his les Paul to such a degree that if he wanted to it didn't sound like a typical Gibson. He could make it sound akin to a strat/tele with the push of a button.

Gibson have flaws, sure, but there's unfair Gibson bashing going on here. I'm no fanboy, I like teles, and I love ibanez. My dream guitar is an early 80's Ibanez artist just like this one:



Ironically, the most Gibson like they ever made, so much so Gibson threatened to sue... So there must have been something worth copying.

slavetothegrind

Malice wrote: »

Just goes to show we've got taste in electric guitars and aren't swayed by brand names .

arsebiscuits!:P

love all sorts of guitars, wouldn't put down any brand at all.

Love ibanez myself ( NEED an RG550 but that's another story)

also have a fender, burny and a noname flying vee i just got last weekend, must stick a decent pup in it and see what it's like.....

nyarlothothep

Ok I may have been misinformed about Page's use of gibsons, although the telecaster for Heartbreaker explains it all (teles are generally harsh, thin sounding guitars and don't sound good unless in the right hands eg The Bends Radiohead, here the telecaster worked with Greenwood's anarchic playing and use of heavy distortion, Prince also can make a tele sound nice, however they are also misused by contemporary indie bands who bring out that harsh treble tone somehow under the impression that it sounds good!). So here is another example of Page's horrible tone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bc9m7nbMC4

Great solo and all that, certainly anticipating 80s shredders, it even sounds like Kirk Hammet at one point, but his tone, aaaarrrgghh, it sounds so ugly I don't know where to begin. Its as thin as a cheese cracker and as dry as an arid Arabian desert. An example of great tone is Gilmour's solo at Pompeii, that is tonal perfection.

bnt

Weird coincidence: the CEO of Gibson, Henry Juszkiewicz, was on Sky News this evening, talking about the wood controversy and showing off the Firebird X. He's a bit of a picker himself. :cool: