Last gasp attempt to reopen Waterford/Rosslare Railway

Hungerford

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Is the Barrow Bridge serviceable at the moment?

Yep. It's a condition of the NTA's deal with Irish Rail re: the suspension of services. Irish Rail's original plan was to somehow lock it into the open position and leave it rot.

Geog1234

Interestingly on the far side in Wales the trains that connect to the Rosslare ferry at Fishguard port are well used and in fact there was a day over Easter that the Arriva train company had to add two carriages to the train such was the demand to/from the Rosslare ferry. The usage level even makes a catering trolley viable on the daytime trains.

These are the same passengers who end up in Rosslare/start in Rosslare so one can draw their own conclusions. Shameful stuff considering the level of unemployment and the fact that tourism is far from booming.

foggy_lad

Geog1234 wrote: »

Interestingly on the far side in Wales the trains that connect to the Rosslare ferry at Fishguard port are well used and in fact there was a day over Easter that the Arriva train company had to add two carriages to the train such was the demand to/from the Rosslare ferry. The usage level even makes a catering trolley viable on the daytime trains.

These are the same passengers who end up in Rosslare/start in Rosslare so one can draw their own conclusions. Shameful stuff considering the level of unemployment and the fact that tourism is far from booming.

The trains are well used but not by people travelling on the ferries! If there were such numbers as you imply then Bus Eireann would have to lay on extra buses from the port to carry away all the tourists and returning emigrants!

Also the trolley services are only available on services that the ferry trains connect with. the honest truth of it is that the trains are timetabled to meet ferries and wait if ferries are delayed as they only serve the ferries.

dowlingm

if this report is accurate the Barrow is still able to take an 071 across.

foggy_lad

dowlingm wrote: »

if this report is accurate the Barrow is still able to take an 071 across.

Who wants to bet they cancel it due to safety concerns?

Geog1234

foggy_lad wrote: »

The trains are well used but not by people travelling on the ferries! If there were such numbers as you imply then Bus Eireann would have to lay on extra buses from the port to carry away all the tourists and returning emigrants!

Also the trolley services are only available on services that the ferry trains connect with. the honest truth of it is that the trains are timetabled to meet ferries and wait if ferries are delayed as they only serve the ferries.

No offence but don't agree with you there - the station at Fishguard port is of little use to local people as it's far from the residential areas, parking is a rip off and my experience has been that the vast majority of people that travel on the train are transferring to/from the ferry. That's why another station is being built in the area to better serve the local people.

Despite travelling by train all across England and Wales many people won't even consider a bus when they get to Rosslare - it's either train, get collected or rent a car. (Nothing against bus myself though prefer train for a longer run - but many are averse to buses). So there's no need for extra buses or the like here because the viable train passenger numbers the far side split up this side to different modes - that's a product of the longstanding deficiencies this side.

Do you think any of those new double decker Bus Éireann coaches with the tables and powerpoints will get used on Dublin-Waterford or Dublin -Rosslare routes?

end of the road

IE will never and don't want to operate trains to the ferries, why do you think they moved the station from where it was? to drive away those customers. IE will close the line to rosslare before they would even consider caring about ferry passengers again.

corktina

Geog1234 wrote: »

Interestingly on the far side in Wales the trains that connect to the Rosslare ferry at Fishguard port are well used and in fact there was a day over Easter that the Arriva train company had to add two carriages to the train such was the demand to/from the Rosslare ferry. The usage level even makes a catering trolley viable on the daytime trains.

These are the same passengers who end up in Rosslare/start in Rosslare so one can draw their own conclusions. Shameful stuff considering the level of unemployment and the fact that tourism is far from booming.

thats not entirely true. They are actually currently re-opening the station at Goodwick (which is effectively Fishguard Harbour's town) as many of those passengers are locals travelling to and from the East rather than ferry passengers. More evidence of Rail sucess in the UK and it's downfall here.

Geog1234

Granted, but what I've experienced is that many are transferring to/from the ferry.

A dozen is something of an underestimate for foot passenger numbers for the ferries though twentyish can happen on some night sailings.

corktina

since they stopped using the walkways, i imagine all foot passengers are transferred by bus at Rosslare. I've not noticed more than one trip by the bus so I'm assuming that 53 seats (or however many) is sufficent. Even if less than a dozen is wide of the mark, 50 Passengers (far from all of whom would use a rail link towards Waterford) does not justify re-opening and keeping open this rail link.

If you want to argue that Rail links North towards Dublin should be improved, I'm with you all the way...they more or less only exist now because the traincrew are based in Rosslare and not because there are ferries in the vicinity!

Geog1234

Have they stopped using the walkway? That must be a very recent development as foot pax for the Fishguard ferry were certainly using it last month, was there myself. Passengers are bussed for the Pembroke ferry as that berth no longer has a walkway.

Didn't for a minute mean that ferry foot passengers alone could justify reopening the rail line to Waterford. But if it did reopen, they are one of several passenger types that could be proactively encouraged to use it.

Agree 100% the link to Dublin needs to be improved - every two hours would be ideal but can't see that happening yet. But even to "plug" some of the giant gaps would be a start. If they do that it becomes more useable for more people.

end of the road

Geog1234 wrote: »

Have they stopped using the walkway? That must be a very recent development as foot pax for the Fishguard ferry were certainly using it last month, was there myself. Passengers are bussed for the Pembroke ferry as that berth no longer has a walkway.

Didn't for a minute mean that ferry foot passengers alone could justify reopening the rail line to Waterford. But if it did reopen, they are one of several passenger types that could be proactively encouraged to use it.

Agree 100% the link to Dublin needs to be improved - every two hours would be ideal but can't see that happening yet. But even to "plug" some of the giant gaps would be a start. If they do that it becomes more useable for more people.

IE would probably close the line before they would give us 2 or 3 hourly services to and from dublin.

corktina

Geog1234 wrote: »

Have they stopped using the walkway? That must be a very recent development as foot pax for the Fishguard ferry were certainly using it last month, was there myself. Passengers are bussed for the Pembroke ferry as that berth no longer has a walkway.

Didn't for a minute mean that ferry foot passengers alone could justify reopening the rail line to Waterford. But if it did reopen, they are one of several passenger types that could be proactively encouraged to use it.

Agree 100% the link to Dublin needs to be improved - every two hours would be ideal but can't see that happening yet. But even to "plug" some of the giant gaps would be a start. If they do that it becomes more useable for more people.

I assumed they were disused, they certainly don't connect to the ship any more (or do they?) My apologises if I am incorrect.

Geog1234

Not to worry - only one still connects - the Fishguard ship uses that one all the time. The other one was disconnected and goes nowhere!

Millem

First time poster, so apologies if this has been discussed before! was Heuston-waterford-rosslare direct ever considered? Theoretically if every Eg second train were to continue on from Waterford to sth Wexford from heuston (at strategic times) it would provide a semblance of a service to the line while negating the costs of operating a 2700 unit. (eg first am departure ex waterford leaves rosslare instead etc) Further it could also offer direct access to rosslare from far flung areas such as Kilkenny, Kildare or Carlow, perhaps a welcome development for cit students living in the wexford area. Just a thought really. My two cents is that as a business case on its own sth Wexford may not stand up, but subsumed into a larger line such as dublin-waterford it may well.

foggy_lad

Millem wrote: »

First time poster, so apologies if this has been discussed before! was Heuston-waterford-rosslare direct ever considered? Theoretically if every Eg second train were to continue on from Waterford to sth Wexford from heuston (at strategic times) it would provide a semblance of a service to the line while negating the costs of operating a 2700 unit. (eg first am departure ex waterford leaves rosslare instead etc) Further it could also offer direct access to rosslare from far flung areas such as Kilkenny, Kildare or Carlow, perhaps a welcome development for cit students living in the wexford area. Just a thought really. My two cents is that as a business case on its own sth Wexford may not stand up, but subsumed into a larger line such as dublin-waterford it may well.

It would take so long to get to Rosslare from waterford because of the state of the line that the return to Dublin would be screwed up. There is also the cost of gatekeepers and extra trains and crews to work the trains as it would mean a much earlier start from Rosslare, where would the train be kept overnight? where would the crew be based etc etc

Millem

foggy_lad wrote: »

Millem wrote: »

First time poster, so apologies if this has been discussed before! was Heuston-waterford-rosslare direct ever considered? Theoretically if every Eg second train were to continue on from Waterford to sth Wexford from heuston (at strategic times) it would provide a semblance of a service to the line while negating the costs of operating a 2700 unit. (eg first am departure ex waterford leaves rosslare instead etc) Further it could also offer direct access to rosslare from far flung areas such as Kilkenny, Kildare or Carlow, perhaps a welcome development for cit students living in the wexford area. Just a thought really. My two cents is that as a business case on its own sth Wexford may not stand up, but subsumed into a larger line such as dublin-waterford it may well.

It would take so long to get to Rosslare from waterford because of the state of the line that the return to Dublin would be screwed up. There is also the cost of gatekeepers and extra trains and crews to work the trains as it would mean a much earlier start from Rosslare, where would the train be kept overnight? where would the crew be based etc etc

Agreed, it would be less than simplistic alright, and I'm certainly not saying its a goer. really just trying to see if there is a way to sweat current assets a bit more and see if any value can be added from same.

For arguments sake the first train of the day could be stored in rosslare (Vehicle would be from last service dub-wf-rosslare the previous night).

The per way being in ****e obviously wouldn't do the timings any good either but perhaps a trial morning & evening service rosslare-Waterford-Dublin a la limerick-Nenagh-dub would be worth a look...
Perhaps 22k operation and a link to hub towns on waterford line may help gain patronage...

Judgement Day

Here we go - again - and still no negativity from me.

Cookie_Monster

better time than ever truth be told, they should be able to get some 2700s no probs

dowlingm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

better time than ever truth be told, they should be able to get some 2700s no probs

And who's going to pay for the overhauls they are due?

Cookie_Monster

dowlingm wrote: »

And who's going to pay for the overhauls they are due?

The big Pie in the Sky that's going to pay for everything else to do with this?

munchkin_utd

dowlingm wrote: »

And who's going to pay for the overhauls they are due?

how much is it again for the major overhaul that is done every couple of years?
Isn't it 500,000 euro per train or something crazy like that?

Judgement Day

They will need some 2700s for the New Ross branch too - reopening sometime soon. :rolleyes:

http://www.cro.ie/search/CompanyDetails.aspx?id=494314&type=C

end of the road

the 2700s need another overhall? i thought they got one 2 years ago? as for new-ross, mwehh, won't happen.

dowlingm

The 2700s got a repaint - not sure if all of them ended up with one - but from what I understand the interconnecting bits between carriages in a set are due an expensive replacement - which is why the ones between sets were removed and in a stupefyingly lazy move plated over but not painted to match. Someone should really have had a carpeting on that one.

Zhane

I've always kind of ignored this situation. However is the service used enough to warrant the cost?

foggy_lad

Zhane wrote: »

I've always kind of ignored this situation. However is the service used enough to warrant the cost?

NO and it never will pay for itself just like the line between Galway and Limerick!

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

NO and it never will pay for itself just like the line between Galway and Limerick!

it had more users then the galway limerick line ever could.
nobody was ever going to use the 1 train that was only ran in a way to suit the unions and that nobody knew about and that left before people finished work or left at a time that suited nobody or that connected into nothing.
sure if re-opened it may not pay for itself but does any line pay for itself realy apart from cork and bellfast?

bk

end of the road wrote: »

sure if re-opened it may not pay for itself but does any line pay for itself realy apart from cork and bellfast?

That isn't the right question to ask. The correct question is, can the same or better level of service (speed, etc.) be delivered by bus for less?

If it can't, the fair enough, otherwise no justification.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

That isn't the right question to ask.

well its the one i asked. so again, does any line apart from cork or bellfast realy pay for itself.? but to answer your question the rail link is more direct then the bus route, so it would be quicker.

L1011

bk wrote: »

That isn't the right question to ask. The correct question is, can the same or better level of service (speed, etc.) be delivered by bus for less?

If it can't, the fair enough, otherwise no justification.

To the exact locations served by the railway line, bus cannot compete - purely because the train has its own bridge across the Barrow significantly south of New Ross, and the bus has to fight through New Ross's serious traffic problems.

Bus has the option of serving other locations, though, so its still a debatable point.

n97 mini

To build a bypass of New Ross would be cheaper in the long run, and would benefit a lot more people.

foggy_lad

MYOB wrote: »

To the exact locations served by the railway line, bus cannot compete - purely because the train has its own bridge across the Barrow significantly south of New Ross, and the bus has to fight through New Ross's serious traffic problems.

Bus has the option of serving other locations, though, so its still a debatable point.

There is no passengers or demand for the train since the end of the beet traffic.

dowlingm

bk wrote: »

That isn't the right question to ask. The correct question is, can the same or better level of service (speed, etc.) be delivered by bus for less

The answer is - it can't, unless the good people of Passage East and Ballyhack can be persuaded to countenance buses on the ferry and have the bus from Campile come into Waterford from the south, cutting the Campile-Waterford route from 31km via New Ross to 21km via Ballyhack.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is no passengers or demand for the train since the end of the beet traffic.

because apart from those using it and a few others most people didn't know their were still passenger services running on the line even when the beat traffic existed, most people thought they seased years ago. their can't be or won't be a demand for something that people don't know exists.

purplepanda

n97 mini wrote: »

To build a bypass of New Ross would be cheaper in the long run, and would benefit a lot more people.

The proposed New Ross Bypass / Barrow River crosling won't be built in the next decade or more & the cost is far too expensive in the current financial climate :rolleyes:


Around €250-350, 000000 for the bypass crossing but this is a wild guess


Maybe Brendan Howlin can help restore services on the Rosslare - Waterford line? Anything Alan Kelly can do & all that .... :pac:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/just-four-people-on-board-new-train-route-costing-250000-a-year-to-run-3140007.html

man98

It really is a good idea. I should know as I know some members of Save The Rail.

Our man in Havana

It is a stupid idea.

Judgement Day

Still can't fathom out what exactly is being proposed by Save the Rail - lots of posting on their Facebook page in the last 24 hours, including a claim that they 'have' a specific 2700 class dmu.

flyingsnail

Judgement Day wrote: »

Still can't fathom out what exactly is being proposed by Save the Rail - lots of posting on their Facebook page in the last 24 hours, including a claim that they 'have' a specific 2700 class dmu.

Which they intend to maintain in the yard in Waterford? Have they any idea of what’s actually involved in maintain a train?


I am confused though, who is going to staff and run the train? IE, save the rail, foreign operator?

corktina

man98 wrote: »

It really is a good idea. I should know as I know some members of Save The Rail.

please expand.... how exactly do you think its a good idea? Ask your friens on STR to tell us how it will be paid for, where the passngers are coming from and going to,what they will use for trains and staff, what practical experiance they have etc

highlydebased

The facebook page claims that they "have" 2751-2753 which are the two bubble cars (Somebody thought it was a three car unit, there is no 2752)

n97 mini

Save The Rail website account suspended. Not looking promising!

dowlingm

I thought "2752" and "2754" were designated on the second cab for signalling purposes? Am I misremembering?

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

Save The Rail website account suspended. Not looking promising!

maybe their just going to use facebook instead of having a website?

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

maybe their just going to use facebook instead of having a website?

If they're abandoning their website they should delete the DNS records for it.

I googled for them and their website was in the results, not their FB page.

end of the road

don't they not automatically delete eventually?

purplepanda

This saga is getting more mysterious by the day, so far it seems that IE are handing over ( maybe for free) a couple of old railcars & including storage facilties, and will be maintaining the line & infastructure including the Barrow Bridge under the NTA terms.

However Save the Rail need to recruit staff including drivers / guards, station staff or franchise all this out to a foreign operator? Or else hire them from IE? That won't come cheap.

Obviously finance will need to be arranged for all this, I doubt if any government subsidy will be granted even though other regional routes receive such aid. This is the South East after all not the West!!

Will the regional authorities contribute towards this,project or maybe EU grants are available? A rich benefactor perhaps? :pac:

BTW Well done to Tayna & STR for their efforts, no cyniism from me but there's a lot of future potential problems awaiting solutions.

dowlingm

How does signalling work between Wellington Bridge and Waterford Station - specifically with respect to trains in and out of Belview? If a train runs from Waterford to Belview is the section as far as WB deemed occupied for all that time?

Losty Dublin

They just reopen the Wellingtonbridge-Waterford ETS section again if it's needed regularly again; for now it's one train in steam. I gather that Belview trains operates under phone orders from Waterford signal cabin; somebody better versed may confirm or deny same.