Rough playing pup, pinning my JRT

gud4u

Hi,

My 16week old rottie holds down my JRT with his mouth locked on, not tightly though. This is obviously a behaviour best avoided in any pup but as he will have very strong jaws I would like to train it out of him. I catch him most of the times quickly and then separate them for a while. I also give him time out from the other dogs so he can rest, and so my older dog gets a break from him.

I know he's just playing and he wouldn't dare do it to my other dogs, but I have to say the Jrt is tiring of it. The last time he did it, I put my fingers in at the back of his jaws and said, 'no bite', he let go. He's not as perceptive to ahah as he was.

From the day I got him, hands were off limits so he never even nips me and has starting taking his treats much more mannerly.

Please advise on him pinning the JRT. It's not a good thing to watch. Up until last week I would have tapped him on the nose but that is a method i'd like to avoid since reading about the negative effects it can have on another thread here recently.

Also, I read that you should get a dog used to being pulled by the collar from behind so it's not an action that would frighted them if they got in a fight and you did it. It was on a breed specific site, and said the dog could accidently turn on you instead if you were trying to separate them...what you think?

All his other training is coming on well, sit, pulling, jumping etc.

are you serious

On the phone here gud4u so hope this works ok

This holding down this is just exactly what you say it is... Playing!

My two now do it to each other the whole time and I literally mean every minute they are awake, funniest part about it is that whoever is on top does the most "crying" and they are normally the one doing the most "biting" and the one who looks most aggressive!

As the Rottie is just a pup in personally I wouldn't stop this type of behaviour at all. The jack will snap but again I would let this happen, they are friends now and when he's going too rough or too hard the jack will have it's say.

I had this with Buddy today out in the park playing with a neighbours boxer, buddy was being too boystrous and the boxer who is half his size but is a yr older gave buddy a good berbal battering and told him off. Nothing I was ever concerned about and the boxers owner was all apologies I told her not to be silly buddy still needs to learn not every dog likes his or izzys stupid rough play(they literally play hard all the time)

This "breed specific site" is it the same layout as this? If it is as far as I know it's mostly American and personally I don't go on to it much as some of their idea's are warped!!

Your rott is not going to snap at you of he is not used to you pulling him back that idea is lidacris. If he is always good you won't need to be pulling him ever (no dog is always good though hah)

But seriously your doing a good job, break the two of them up if you feel he is getting too rough an the jack wont play as hard. Other than that leave them at it, he won't hurt the jack and the day he does he will get a good fright when the jack lets an angry snap at him. They won't fight either because the rott is a puppy and doesn't know what a fight is plus the jack knows he is a pup, your rott just thinks its all playing unless the jack gives him a good telling off I really would suggest leaving them at it!

gud4u

Hi,

Thanks for the advice, I haven't much experience with pups..I think that's obvious:), and my family have no experience of rotts so keep getting onto me, which has made me paranoid about teaching him properly. They're all afraid the devil dog will savage them:rolleyes:, despite us growing up with sheepdogs, the only breed we've all(my family) been bitten by:D

The jrt has gone off her food and despite giving her a full body check for any nips, she is not herself. She looks really sad and is not eating much in the last week. She gets ear infections sometimes, but it's not that as I know her symptoms for it.
They mainly lounge around in the garden all day but, I think I might separate them for today, to give her a good rest. The GSD left pup know after a couple of days what his limit is and the older rott just mammys him.
The pup and GSD sleep in one room, they go to bed on separate blankets, but every morning they're on the same blanket, I must get a pic of it.

Yeah, that site I referred to is like this one, but it's a bit weird and really unhelpful, I found it before boards, thankfully there's more help here, so I haven't been back.

Thanks again.

DBB

Grabbing a dog by the collar, especially to pull him away from something he's captivated by, can be a risky thing to do (as many owners and handlers, myself included, can testify). In fact, I'd say it's one of the most common situations in which owners get bitten, and although it's not aimed at the owner personally, rather at the frustration of restraint, it's still setting the dog up to bite.

It is important to teach the dog, any dog, in non-emotionally arounsing situations at first, to like having his collar grabbed. Start off by gently taking the collar between your fingers, and immediately treat him. Do this many times, gradually grabbing his collar more forcefully (without being rough), and eventually building in the leading him away part of it, all the time following up with a lovely treat. This conditions the dog to enjoy collar-grabs, and is a seriously important lesson for all owners to teach their dogs, regardless of breed or type.

I don't agree with just letting the pup at it and waiting for the JRT to retaliate, especially when there is a great disparity in size, weight, or physical ability, which there certainly will be in the months to come.

Some dogs never retaliate (your JRT may be feeling way too overpowered to even attempt to retaliate), and I'm not surprised to read that she's feeling down. If she's a non-retaliator, the pup will never learn to leave her alone, and may hurt her in time, albeit unwittingly. He may not have hurt her physically yet, but he is damaging her mental wellbeing, and that in itself is a major issue.

I would not recommend this putting fingers under his jaw as a "no bite" cue... I can't really see how a pup would learn not to bite from this. In these situations, a Time Out is an entirely appropriate and effective punishment: the "ah ah" warning is only fully effective if back up by a Time Out, it soon loses it's warning ability if used on it's own, which you have found.

The idea is that when the pup is getting too physical, you say "ah ah" (or whatever verbal marker you choose). When the pup ignores this, you tell him "enough", then calmly lead him away using your conditioned collar-grabs, though I far prefer to use a houseline or short lead for this for various reasons.

The Time Out area should be secure and boring..there's no point in putting a dog into a Time Out area if he can have fun in it! A utility room is ideal. Pup stays there alone for 30-60 seconds, and only let out if he's not barking or scratching at the door.

This will need a lot of repetition, as most learning does, but if you back your "ah ah" up with the Time Out, the "ah ah" develops a far more significant meaning: it becomes a predictor that there's a Time Out on the way, and with time, just saying "ah ah" will make them stop.

There's no slapping, no shouting, no sticking fingers under jaws with this, it's all hands-off training and uses the dog's brain to figure out what he needs to do next.

Definitely keep the JRT separate from him when unsupervised: this approach means that you will be doing the intervening on the JRT's behalf, and not leaving them to sort of out between themselves, which is simply not working in this case.

Good luck with it!

tk123

DBB wrote: »

Some dogs never retaliate (your JRT may be feeling way too overpowered to even attempt to retaliate), and I'm not surprised to read that she's feeling down. If she's a non-retaliator, the pup will never learn to leave her alone, and may hurt her in time, albeit unwittingly. He may not have hurt her physically yet, but he is damaging her mental wellbeing, and that in itself is a major issue.

^ THIS!!

My guy never retaliates. Now don't get me wrong he has his friends that he rolls around with and the kill each other play biting/growling etc but there's a couple of other dogs that imo are too rough and he does nothing. One in particular just over a year old has imo crossed the puppy->adult boundary - it was ok to let him away with it as a puppy but he's bigger (ie fatter lol) than my guy - he pins him and grabs him by the neck and literally drags him around him around the ground. I don't allow it anymore - I call my dog over or take him by his harness and lift him up.
I used to let them at it but not anymore. I did ask advice from trainers before on this and they said to break it up if it was too rough as it could have an affect on him if he got hurt or had a bad experience. He was snapped at by a terrier at a few months old and since then he can very shy and submissive with new dogs so I know what that's like already!

LucyBliss

My dog Rosie is a terrier cross and she's quite petite compared to Jack, who's slightly bigger and more muscular. They like to go at it sometimes and mouth one another and Jack stands over her and practically pins her down. They've been doing it since day one but it's a bit more controlled now and less prone to getting out of hand because I used to do like DBB suggested and I'd intervene if the noise level got to be too much or if I felt that either of them was about to take things too far.

I used to clap my hands twice or I'd knock on the wooden floor. That would distract them enough for the energy level to go down a bit. Sometimes I'd start playing fetch with them to burn off the extra playing energy, because that's all it was. Now most of the times, all I have to do is say 'Easy!' in a stern voice and they back off.

It's perfectly natural for dogs to play together in that fashion. They just need to be supervised so you can set boundaries about what's acceptable and step in when things get a bit over the top.

gud4u

Thank you, that's sound advice and I'm putting a house lead on the pup this evening to help with in door training, I can't believe how fast the little bugger is growing.

The JRT was eating and back to her nornal self today so I think all is forgiven and she was just overwhelmed. It's odd because she gives the GSD lots of grief, but won't stand up to the pup. She'll probably throttle him Russell style when he's bigger. I suppose she feels she can't. I took her for a walk on her own and she seemed to be happier after it.



Off out for the third walk now as I separated them today, thank god for the bright evenings.

Thanks again.

tk123

They'll get there in the end - sounds like they're in good hands! My guy (retriever) is very good friends with a JRT - once they both know each other's boundaries it's hilarious watching them play!

Jelly2

I think we'd all love a photo of the two pets in question!;)

gud4u

Upload is very slow, here's one anyway..;)

Jelly2

gud4u wrote: »

Upload is very slow, here's one anyway..;)

Lovely! Especially like the way the older dog is looking on in such a resigned fashion...:)

gud4u

second attempt, hope it works, they are playing here, even if it looks bad.:D

LucyBliss

Those pictures take me back to when Meg & Jack were pups and they'd be knocking each other about good-o! You'd think they were about to rip off limbs or something. The only real casualties that time were the ceramic flower pots in the garden. They used to roll over and knock them and the flower pots would crash into the wall and smash. Five of them were destroyed in one month. It took me two years to decide it was safe to buy more!!