Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 (End of March 2012 onwards)

amiable

Damien360 wrote: »

I don't know you and I am not being a smart arse, but who in london can inform you on liverpools signings ? I am genuinely curious.

I would have thought it was a given they want younger players to rebuild a squad.

I was at the game with someone who works for another club.
It's just what he's heard that the type of player Liverpool will be after is a younger type.
You take what you want from that if you like but I really couldn't give a rats arse and I'm not being smart either.

Jesus Wept

We should have given Coates much more game time, dunno what the **** we are at.

amiable

Dotsey wrote: »

It will take a year or two to find that out for definite as both are young, but we did match United's bid for Jones and were turned down by him and then we went after Coates

That was only a rumour

Hannibal

G.K. wrote: »

Coates is a starter for Uruguay and Best Youg Player of Copa America 2011. Jones could easily not go to the Euros with England, a far inferior nation.

I know all that, the point I made is that we were knocked back by our three first choice options and got Downing, Enrique and Coates instead.

I'm not saying which is better or worse as personally I rated Downing higher than Young when both were at Villa.

Hannibal

amiable wrote: »

That was only a rumour

It was covered everywhere by reputable sources

amiable

Dotsey wrote: »

It was covered everywhere by reputable sources

Go on so

Hannibal

• Failed Targets
Last summer, Liverpool tried to buy Ashley Young, Phil Jones and Gael Clichy. Each chose a club already in the Champions League. Higher wages, more chance of immediate success.
So the Reds dropped down a level, to second choices, and got Downing, Coates and Enrique.
So far, Enrique has done well, even if he’s been a little shaky of late. He’s had enough good games to feel optimistic, and as such, we must judge players’ performance on the larger sample.
Coates, like Jones, is a young centre-back with immense promise. Even so, the goal at QPR was a total shock, in a week when the best two volleys you’re likely to see this season were by men who were 6’6” or taller.
But like any young defender, Coates is also likely to make mistakes. Jones may well be a future England captain, but Coates has already played a part, when aged just 20, in Uruguay winning the Copa America. If Liverpool overpaid in some instances, they got a bargain here.
Meanwhile, Young probably had the talent and self-confidence to thrive at a bigger club, but Downing was actually the more consistent performer for Aston Villa last season. Young, at £17m, was relatively cheap as he was in the last year of his contract.
By contrast, Downing was overpriced, but not a write-off. If Liverpool now sign a better right-winger and a reliable goalscorer, then I see no reason why Downing, as a good footballer and well-liked team player, can’t help take Liverpool back into the top four. The problem is that he’s not got the individual brilliance to be one of the handful of players who could drag them there. Maybe for £20m you’d expect that, but then again, on his unremarkable wages, you wouldn’t.
The aim now has to be to make a couple of summer signings who, unlike the last batch, make an instant impact, although given my estimate of 50% of signings failing for one reason or another, it may need four purchases to achieve that. (If they none start well, then it will require this season’s purchases to up their game.)
You can still find top players who are happy to not play in the Champions League right away (Suarez, for example), but they won’t want to wait too long, and are obviously harder to find than those chasing instant riches and glory.
Liverpool retains a glorious name, but not the riches to do what Man City did, and make unrefusable offers. It needs to take the Spurs route, but that was a building process, not an instant success.

that's from Paul Tomkins http://tomkinstimes.com/2012/03/point-by-point-liverpool-fc-health-check/

and use google with "Liverpool bid Phil Jones" and you will find broadsheet articles from last summer rather than the Sun and the Star

Damien360

Dotsey wrote: »

It was covered everywhere by reputable sources

amiable wrote: »

Go on so

Must have heard it at a match like you so !

amiable

Dotsey wrote: »

that's from Paul Tomkins http://tomkinstimes.com/2012/03/point-by-point-liverpool-fc-health-check/

and use google with "Liverpool bid Phil Jones" and you will find broadsheet articles from last summer rather than the Sun and the Star

Again only rumours

amiable

Damien360 wrote: »

Must have heard it at a match like you so !

What I heard was a vague thing but from a Premier League coach.
Silly to compare the 2 things.
I'm not denying what I've heard is still just a rumour.

K-9

Chucky the tree wrote: »

We had no choice? So was it written into his contract that once he handed in a transfer request it had to be granted? Of course he'd be near our team, there is no one else who can play as a DM.

Meireles wouldn't have filled the gap either. He's been very poor with Chelsea, even under the new regime.

K-9

amiable wrote: »

Again only rumours

The Clichy, Young and Jones interest were widely reported, we didn't stand a chance. Thought you followed this stuff amiable?

Chucky the tree

K-9 wrote: »

Meireles wouldn't have filled the gap either. He's been very poor with Chelsea, even under the new regime.

I never said he would, the second sentence was referring to Spearing. Don't really care how he played at Chelsea tbh, he played well for us and I thought he linked up well with Suarez and had great potential to play behind him.

amiable

K-9 wrote: »

The Clichy, Young and Jones interest were widely reported, we didn't stand a chance. Thought you followed this stuff amiable?

You know I love a bit of transfer gossip and what I posted earlier is no way me claiming to be anywhere near 'ITK' stuff.
Clichy seems very reliable . There's some truth to the Ashley Young link IMO too but I don't think Liverpool were ever too close because he always wanted United.
I've read that Liverpool were never genuinely in for Phil Jones and the ''interest'' Liverpool showed just seemed like an agent tactic to me.
I just couldn't see Liverpool forking out close to 20 mill on a player in a position Liverpool were already fairly strong in when other areas needed seeing to in hindsight.
It's only an opinion and I could be totally wide of the mark

K-9

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I never said he would, the second sentence was referring to Spearing. Don't really care how he played at Chelsea tbh, he played well for us and I thought he linked up well with Suarez and had great potential to play behind him.

You referred to Meireles as a DM.

amiable

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I never said he would, the second sentence was referring to Spearing. Don't really care how he played at Chelsea tbh, he played well for us and I thought he linked up well with Suarez and had great potential to play behind him.

I think the point you are trying to make is he's a better player than Spearing and there's not much argument there from me on that.

amiable

Absolutely drained after the weekend. Off for some Zzzzzzz's
Some big answers needed over the next few weeks and hopefully these answers will be found.

K-9

amiable wrote: »

You know I love a bit of transfer gossip and what I posted earlier is no way me claiming to be anywhere near 'ITK' stuff.
Clichy seems very reliable . There's some truth to the Ashley Young link IMO too but I don't think Liverpool were ever too close because he always wanted United.
I've read that Liverpool were never genuinely in for Phil Jones and the ''interest'' Liverpool showed just seemed like an agent tactic to me.
I just couldn't see Liverpool forking out close to 20 mill on a player in a position Liverpool were already fairly strong in when other areas needed seeing to in hindsight.
It's only an opinion and I could be totally wide of the mark

You came down a bit harsh on Dotsey. We'll never get 100% quotes and stories on these.

Going on what Comolli said, missing on a couple of first team targets, remarks about Enrique, I'd say Clichy was missed out on and very sad I was to see it. Enrique I think is a good FB but i felt the praise, after his first couple of months excellent start, became OTT. Best LB in the league and all that, almost over compensating because of the other signings.

Having said that, some of the criticism is OTT. I think he has excellent technique for a very one footed player but against the top teams, he's too predictable. Ideally I'd be looking to improve but we've more pressing concerns.

Young was widely reported on but as you said, widely reported his heart was set on United.

Jones seemed more complicated, remember the whole get out clause thing. I'd say we had expressed interest but once United came in.............

One thing Dalglish should lhave learned is if we don't get our first target, don't go straight to target 2. Reappraise and look again.

Chucky the tree

K-9 wrote: »

You referred to Meireles as a DM.

My second sentence was referring to Spearing in relation to Dotesy saying he wouldn't be playing for us if he wasn't a local lad.

5starpool

If Liverpool sign Darren Bent for presumably a load of money, then I'll officially want everyone involved in transfers at the club fired unless there are some really good other signings made. He'd cost probably our entire budget not including sales, and unless someone leaves that we don't want to (Agger, Reina, Suarez, etc) then we won't get much more money that way.

Massive summer coming up.

Mr Alan

If we could sign Bent for around £10m-£15m and go into next season with Suarez, Carroll, Bent & Bellamy/Kuyt I'd be ok with that! Bent is a smashing player & one of the best goalscorers in the league.



Seems he's one of the rare cases where the player gets UNDER RATED because of their nationality. This infamous 'not Liverpool quality' phrase gets dragged out, similar to the way it did with Gareth Barry (who's about to win the league).

daithijjj

Id rather Hugo Rodallega on a free.

Mr Alan

He's not a goalscorer. If we're buying a striker, we want one who can put the ball in the net.

Jesus Wept

daithijjj wrote: »

Id rather Hugo Rodallega on a free.

That guy has a record of scoring 24 goals in 107 appearances over 4 years in the premier league, it's pretty bad.

Jesus Wept

Mr Alan wrote: »

He's not a goalscorer. If we're buying a striker, we want one who can put the ball in the net.

Andy Carroll wrote: »

That guy has a record of scoring 24 goals in 107 appearances over 4 years in the premier league, it's pretty bad.

+10 points for our joint managership. :pac:

5starpool

Mr Alan wrote: »

If we could sign Bent for around £10m-£15m and go into next season with Suarez, Carroll, Bent & Bellamy/Kuyt I'd be ok with that! Bent is a smashing player & one of the best goalscorers in the league.



Seems he's one of the rare cases where the player gets UNDER RATED because of their nationality. This infamous 'not Liverpool quality' phrase gets dragged out, similar to the way it did with Gareth Barry (who's about to win the league).

That's the thing though, we wouldn't sign him for anywhere near 10m. He was signed for 24m, probably has a couple of years left on his contract, and I doubt Villa would let him go for under £20m. If we could get him for 10m maximum, I'd be ok with it, more than 15m I'd question the sanity of those signing him. If he was good enough for the pointy end of the table, he'd still be at Spurs.

daithijjj

He has been playing with a team battling relegation every year, he would probably score 40 at Rangers. Someone like Jelavic had the same kinda record in a sh1te league before he joined Rangers.

But by all means, fire ahead and blow a wedge on a man who stinks out every club he has ever been at when he was dropped or had half decent competition for his place.

Sir Gallagher

First time commenting since the game.

Something that pissed me off about Kennys selections, earlier in the week he was giving out about players who had their chance to play their way into the team for the final and didnt perform well enough. So im assuming Henderson, Spearing and Downing who were poxy against Fulham yet he still picked them for the final. Yet the one player who showed a bit of heart, fight and guile against Fulham didnt get picked for the final and that was Carroll.

So in the end the Fulham match and how the players played had no bearing on whether they got picked for the final. That really pissed me off when i seen the starting line up. Giving a free pass to players who've done fck all and not rewarding others who've done well and are in form.

super_furry

Clint Demspey and Darren Bent, if these are really the targets we're looking at then it's clear that Dalglish has learned nothing from last summers transfer failings. They're both mid-table players at mid to lower-table clubs and despite patches of good form are not the kind of players who will help you progress. Adam and Downing were in the exact same mold and both have been disasters.

klose

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/new-shirt-logo-for-chelsea-game

Not the warrior kit before Ye get too excited

Morzadec

super_furry wrote: »

Clint Demspey and Darren Bent, if these are really the targets we're looking at then it's clear that Dalglish has learned nothing from last summers transfer failings. They're both mid-table players at mid to lower-table clubs and despite patches of good form are not the kind of players who will help you progress. Adam and Downing were in the exact same mold and both have been disasters.

I wouldn't say no to Dempsey at the right price. I would imagine there will be no right price for Bent, especially considering they are now definitely staying up.

I do agree that in general we should be looking at other leagues for better deals, as last summer showed that in the Premier League the transfer rates can be hugely inflated.

Kess73

Gutted at the weekend. Gutted.


My team lost in the final and then I had a fat fcuk fall on my foot leaving the ground which left me with some nice bruising. The next day I took slightly over 3 and a half hours to finish the bloody marathon when a much better time was my target.


Throat was raw from shouting the damn team on, but the first hour or so just highlighted the same old problems both on the pitch and on the touchline.

What is very clear that we have no leaders on the pitch outside of in defence. We have nobody who is able to lead, cajole, and drive the team on from the centre or in attack.

Spearing was poor. Henderson was a cowardly shyte who tried his usual drift over to the right to hide trick. Gerrard was poor and clueless. Downing just seemed to want to stay as close as he could to Enrique and Enrique seemed to want to stay as close as he could to Downing. Bellamy was unusually subdued in every sense. Suarez was just left without any real support for the first hour which made it easy for Chelsea to mark him and despite all the very obvious flaws on the pitch there seemed to be a whiff of being clueless coming from Kenny & co on the touchline.

Carroll came on and to be fair to the guy he was very very good. He showed heart, he fought, he did his best to push things on, and of course he scored. Nothing more could have been asked of him on the day.

Agger and Skrtel fought hard for the entire game and I was almost pulling my hair out a few times when Agger had to keep bringing the ball from deep to try and make things happen. You could see him pushing up and glaring at players to try and get them involved, and he often had a WTF look on his face when Gerrard was hanging about too close to the backline trying to get the ball rather than let Skrtel/Agger bring the ball out. Was delighted to see a number of times Skrtel/Agger just ignore him and bring the ball out themselves.

Very few came out of the game with any credit in my eyes. Carroll, Agger, Skrtel, Kuyt, and maybe Johnson were all that showed up. The rest, including Kenny, all ranged from clueless to useless to spineless.

John Henry looked livid at one point, and there was again the same chat about Kenny being moved up/on this summer and again it came from the same local journo that told me months ago. And that old rumour about Hyypia or Hamann (maybe even both) coming back to get involved as part of the backroom team for the new manager was floating about.

Another thing that baffled me was why we bothered to change our tactics and formation against Chelsea. We played 4-3-3 against them twice under Kenny and that formation was able to nullify their own each time. But on Saturday we changed formation again (and we did the same for the Fulham and Norwich games) and seemed to have no clue at all what to do.

Knowing us we will probably turn up against Chelsea tomorrow night in our fantastic quest for 8th place.

Was asked a question on the plane back to Ireland that I found hard to answer. The question was this one. If Liverpool came second or third in the league (getting the automatic CL spot) but won no silverware and Man Utd
came 8th but won the league cup, would I think that United had the better season because they got silverware?


Great cup runs are only worth a damn if you take home the cup after them. We did it for one cup but failed for the bigger cup , and failed totally in the league this season.


On the rumour front, some familar names popped up again. Belhanda, Moussa Sissoko, Siggy, Hoilett and two centre backs Ogbonna and Yanga-Mbiwa. We also had a clutch of "premiership proven" players being spoken about as potential targets which did have worrying shades of last summer.


As I am sure a few of you know by now (Leiva certainly does anyway) PSG are said to be ready to offer between 15m and 20m for Belhanda and up to €45k a week in wages. If that is what is on the table for him, then we would be crazy to not try to get involved. We are talking a Jordon Henderson price talk for a player who is close in age to Henderson but who is a genuine quality and ready to first team action.

16m is the rumoured asking price for Moussa Sissoko. Again it is a good sounding orice for a very good midfielder.

£12m is the rumoured asking price for Siggy.

Kess73

Oh and whilst I am venting. There was a classless number of Chelsea "supporters" with badges that were mock up of the Justice For The 96 badges, except the tossers had a JTF39 logo and had crude banners to match. Noticed that one or two of them had nice bloody noses after trying to run into the Liverpool support outside the ground doing the "I'm being crushed" shyte.

Such a shame nobody was able to remember who thumped them when the police came around to ask what happened. Must have all been looking the wrong way at the time.

tibor

Just catching up on things here after the final and seeing the likes of Lahm, khedeira, cavani, hazard etc still mentioned as potential targets in the summer tells a tale of a fan base with hugely unrealistic expectations.

slingerz

Kess73 wrote: »

Gutted at the weekend. Gutted.


My team lost in the final and then I had a fat fcuk fall on my foot leaving the ground which left me with some nice bruising. The next day I took slightly over 3 and a half hours to finish the bloody marathon when a much better time was my target.


Throat was raw from shouting the damn team on, but the first hour or so just highlighted the same old problems both on the pitch and on the touchline.

What is very clear that we have no leaders on the pitch outside of in defence. We have nobody who is able to lead, cajole, and drive the team on from the centre or in attack.

Spearing was poor. Henderson was a cowardly shyte who tried his usual drift over to the right to hide trick. Gerrard was poor and clueless. Downing just seemed to want to stay as close as he could to Enrique and Enrique seemed to want to stay as close as he could to Downing. Bellamy was unusually subdued in every sense. Suarez was just left without any real support for the first hour which made it easy for Chelsea to mark him and despite all the very obvious flaws on the pitch there seemed to be a whiff of being clueless coming from Kenny & co on the touchline.

Carroll came on and to be fair to the guy he was very very good. He showed heart, he fought, he did his best to push things on, and of course he scored. Nothing more could have been asked of him on the day.

Agger and Skrtel fought hard for the entire game and I was almost pulling my hair out a few times when Agger had to keep bringing the ball from deep to try and make things happen. You could see him pushing up and glaring at players to try and get them involved, and he often had a WTF look on his face when Gerrard was hanging about too close to the backline trying to get the ball rather than let Skrtel/Agger bring the ball out. Was delighted to see a number of times Skrtel/Agger just ignore him and bring the ball out themselves.

Very few came out of the game with any credit in my eyes. Carroll, Agger, Skrtel, Kuyt, and maybe Johnson were all that showed up. The rest, including Kenny, all ranged from clueless to useless to spineless.

John Henry looked livid at one point, and there was again the same chat about Kenny being moved up/on this summer and again it came from the same local journo that told me months ago. And that old rumour about Hyypia or Hamann (maybe even both) coming back to get involved as part of the backroom team for the new manager was floating about.

Another thing that baffled me was why we bothered to change our tactics and formation against Chelsea. We played 4-3-3 against them twice under Kenny and that formation was able to nullify their own each time. But on Saturday we changed formation again (and we did the same for the Fulham and Norwich games) and seemed to have no clue at all what to do.

Knowing us we will probably turn up against Chelsea tomorrow night in our fantastic quest for 8th place.

Was asked a question on the plane back to Ireland that I found hard to answer. The question was this one. If Liverpool came second or third in the league (getting the automatic CL spot) but won no silverware and Man Utd
came 8th but won the league cup, would I think that United had the better season because they got silverware?


Great cup runs are only worth a damn if you take home the cup after them. We did it for one cup but failed for the bigger cup , and failed totally in the league this season.


On the rumour front, some familar names popped up again. Belhanda, Moussa Sissoko, Siggy, Hoilett and two centre backs Ogbonna and Yanga-Mbiwa. We also had a clutch of "premiership proven" players being spoken about as potential targets which did have worrying shades of last summer.


As I am sure a few of you know by now (Leiva certainly does anyway) PSG are said to be ready to offer between 15m and 20m for Belhanda and up to €45k a week in wages. If that is what is on the table for him, then we would be crazy to not try to get involved. We are talking a Jordon Henderson price talk for a player who is close in age to Henderson but who is a genuine quality and ready to first team action.

16m is the rumoured asking price for Moussa Sissoko. Again it is a good sounding orice for a very good midfielder.

£12m is the rumoured asking price for Siggy.

If Adam Johnson becomes available then Liverpool should make a serious move for him

Kess73

slingerz wrote: »

If Adam Johnson becomes available then Liverpool should make a serious move for him

Good player but would prefer Hoilett over him. Plus for the money it would probably tale to get Johnson, we would probably be able to buy the likes of Belhanda and have change. Plus Belhanda's wages would be less as well.

tibor

Kess73 wrote: »

On the rumour front, some familar names popped up again. Belhanda, Moussa Sissoko, Siggy, Hoilett and two centre backs Ogbonna and Yanga-Mbiwa.

Not convinced by holiett - very inconsistent - and wouldn't have centre back as a priority to strengthen but the others would be excellent signings and somewhat realistic targets. But surely so much now depends on the potential changes in management structure that we're being a bit premature in thinking about targets yet?

Slimity

@ Kess

Did the local journo mention the rumour going around about Rafa coming back with Sami as assistant/coach?

The Rafa rumour simply will not go away and I'm starting to think there's something in it.

mike65

So you decided that watching that Liverpool performance was insufficient punishment for one weekend? :pac:

Serously, your observations chime with most of those here though such straight taking is still a non no for a few. Enjoy the match thread

Kess73

Slimity wrote: »

@ Kess

Did the local journo mention the rumour going around about Rafa coming back with Sami as assistant/coach?

The Rafa rumour simply will not go away and I'm starting to think there's something in it.

Yep that came up just as it came up a few months back. Cannot see it going away anytime soon tbh.

Sappy404

tibor wrote: »

Just catching up on things here after the final and seeing the likes of Lahm, khedeira, cavani, hazard etc still mentioned as potential targets in the summer tells a tale of a fan base with hugely unrealistic expectations.

Thanks for your input. If this is genuine, have a proper read of the last few days posts rather than a skim. Should change your mind.

Fowler87

Kess73 wrote: »

Good player but would prefer Hoilett over him. Plus for the money it would probably tale to get Johnson, we would probably be able to buy the likes of Belhanda and have change. Plus Belhanda's wages would be less as well.

Agreed, Hoilett, Siggy, powerhouse like Sissoko would be a productive summer. Thats not even to mention getting a striker:(

Kess73

mike65 wrote: »

So you decided that watching that Liverpool performance was insufficient punishment for one weekend? :pac:

Serously, your observations chime with most of those here though such straight taking is still a non no for a few. Enjoy the match thread

I no reason to inflict the match thread upon myself.:D I saw enough at the ground and then further inflicted the game highlights upon myself yesterday to see what the cameras picked up.

Phoenix Park

Anyone else think a year on loan might do Henderson some good? I know he's played nearly every game this season but he still looks raw and clueless to me. Time is on his side, i'd rather see him mature elsewhere next season than in our first team where we are unlikely to push for fourth without major midfield changes anyway, even allowing for Lucas' return. The terror of Henderson, Adam, Spearing, Downing all being in or around the first team next season..frightening.

mike65

Phoenix Park wrote: »

Anyone else think a year on loan might do Henderson some good? I know he's played nearly every game this season but he still looks raw and clueless to me. Time is on his side, i'd rather see him mature elsewhere next season

Its because he was thrown in that he has looked clueless. Should never have been anything other than a peripheral figure this season. As for a loan, maybe but I'd sooner he was given a chance as a cup/EL player next season and maybe integrated into the PL sqaud as the season goes on. ie what should have happened this season.

ush

Kess73 wrote: »

Was asked a question on the plane back to Ireland that I found hard to answer. The question was this one. If Liverpool came second or third in the league (getting the automatic CL spot) but won no silverware and Man Utd
came 8th but won the league cup, would I think that United had the better season because they got silverware?

Thats why John Henry looked livid. He's a foreign businessman looking at his investment without the sentimentality of boyhood cup final memories. The domestic cups aren't worth piss in 2012. The league cup even less so than the FA cup.

tibor

Sappy404 wrote: »

Thanks for your input.

Much obliged, Sappy.

If this is genuine, have a proper read of the last few days posts rather than a skim. Should change your mind.

There's some reasonable, mature discourse too, usually from a handful of the same few posters, but there's a stupid level of football manager stuff with no acknowledgement of reality. This stupid stuff and the massive overreactions from game to game give credence to those who then write off any genuine considered criticism as knee-jerk making any real debate and engagement of opposing views all the more difficult. If this stuff is called out as the nonsense it is perhaps it could be reduced and lead to more constructive discussions.
Probably not, though.

opr

whippedcream wrote: »

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/new-shirt-logo-for-chelsea-game

Not the warrior kit before Ye get too excited

That should be pretty cool. Fair play to Standard Chartered going with that logo.

The Philip Lahm thing is an old joke from way back in the thread by The Rigger.

Opr

ush

Seeing is believing and the more I see, the less I believe in Dalglish.

Kess73

mike65 wrote: »

Its because he was thrown in that he has looked clueless. Should never have been anything other than a peripheral figure this season. As for a loan, maybe but I'd sooner he was given a chance as a cup/EL player next season and maybe integrated into the PL sqaud as the season goes on. ie what should have happened this season.

Granted he looks clueless a lot and quite often stinks of being a coward. And granted he is young and learning, but even taking his age into account should a player who has 113 premiership games and 21 cup games to his name look as clueless on the pitch as he does?

Young yes, but he is very experienced for his age yet he looks like he is a first timer most games.

People might try to compare him with Lucas and say look at how Lucas progressed. But Lucas was a young player in a strange country who fdid not even speak the language. Henderson had 71 premiership games to his name before he joined Liverpool and was no stranger to the league. It can take a bit of time to get used to a team and new city, but the basics of playing the game don't change.

The guy cannot tackle or is just too chickenshyte to tackle, he is poor at pressing players generally when they have the ball, he seems to have very little to the offensive side of his game, very little to the defensive side of his game, seems to have very little by way of game intelligence as his positioning is awful most of the time when he is in the centre. He turns 22 in a few weeks yet seems to have no one part of his game that is strong and is not a good general all rounder. Doing skill tricks in hotel lobbies or at training grounds seems to be his thing.

He might improve and he is young enough to but look at some of the players we have been linked to.

Belhanda 22 years old (turned 22 this year so born the same year as Henderson)

Moussa Sissoko 22 years old (23 later this year)

Yann M'Vila 21 years old (Turns 22 later in the year)

They are all peers of Henderson and he is a child of a player compared to them. He cannot come close to any of them in terms of ability, he cannot come close to any of them in terms of apoplication and he does not have a fraction of the heart those players show on the pitch.

I'm sure people will say oh Jordon will be a great CM someday, or stuff like that. Based on what I must ask. It is not based on tackling, it is not based on pressing or the ability to read the game, it is not based on heart, it is not based on being able to play clever through balls. Basically all the guy has shown is that he can get the ball, take a few touches to control and then try to get rid of it backwards or sideways asap. He does not look forward when he gets the ball.

16m - 20m on a player that hides and who is nowhere near other players his age that would move for the money he cost. I know I have said all of this before but we paid the sort of money that should get a quality young player for a young player who is reserve team quality. Sunderland must still be laughing along with Newcastle and Aston Villa for how they mugged us.