Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 (End of March 2012 onwards)

copacetic

Handsome Bob wrote: »

@kess

Are there not family members on the HFSG though? Plus, isn't the relationship between LFC and HFSG longstanding?

I can't find the LFC statement, but I think this hinges on whether or not they stated that they consulted "all" family members. If they did say all, they are undoubtedly in the wrong. If they didn't, I'm sorry to say that I don't see the issue.

It's a shame that LFC ignores the HJC though, no question about that.

Even the HJC statement doesn't claim they said 'all'. The post ealier on calling the club liars for claiming 'all' is ironically a lie.

A number of families would be disgusted at any suggestion that the HJC represent them, but it doesn't put 'some' families in all it's PR. Personally i dont see a problem with that, but apparently it's one rule for them and another for the rest.

kingshankly

In fairness to the club and their owners it's the first time I seen a significant inclusion on the jersey to remember the 96 in the 23 years since it happened

LuckyLloyd

Orando Broom wrote: »

I had posted this in jerseys2012/13, probably more appropriate here given the discussion ongoing.

I see there is no '96' on the inside of the official photo of the jersey but there was on a previous picture? I presume it was photoshopped on the previous picture.

Do you Liverpool fans think if it were on the jersey that it is a little cynical to use the deaths of those people as a marketing ploy to sell the jersey? It's not like the changed crest; it is an overt and direct reference. The jerseys are not solely for consumption in the Liverpool area but to markets where to be quite frank really know nothing about the Hillsborough disaster, I'd be talking about your average 14 year old Japanese or American boy. This situation is different to being mindful to a clubs history, people died and there are people living every day still with that loss.

My opinion would be that there would want to be a significant portion of the jersey price going to a memorial fund for me to be okay with that. That or make that Jersey a limited edition that could only be bought within the environs of Liverpool with a good portion of the sales of those jerseys going to any official charity associated with Hillsborough. Sell a global version without reference.

I'd argue that is exactly why there should be an element of remembrance on the club strip.

Kess73

Handsome Bob wrote: »

@kess

Are there not family members on the HFSG though? Plus, isn't the relationship between LFC and HFSG longstanding?

I can't find the LFC statement, but I think this hinges on whether or not they stated that they consulted "all" family members. If they did say all, they are undoubtedly in the wrong. If they didn't, I'm sorry to say that I don't see the issue.

It's a shame that LFC ignores the HJC though, no question about that.

I know there are family members in both the HFC and HFSG, which is why I said the club should have consulted with both groups.

Cartman78

mike65 wrote: »

Another executive level head gets lopped off.

Fenway Sports Group are continuing their restructuring at Liverpool after announcing that their director of communications, Ian Cotton, is to leave the club after 16 years.

Not before time - this guy must have literally been asleep at the wheel judging by the amount of PR snafus and gaffes coming out of Anfield this year

Speak Now

bluefinger wrote: »

I am the only one who can see a resemblance with the chinnese flag?

Bill Shankly like this........

'Chairman Mao has never seen a greater show of red strength.'

mike65

I didn't know the club has such a role, which says it all i guess!

Orando Broom

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'd argue that is exactly why there should be an element of remembrance on the club strip.

Fair enough but your post doesn't really answer my question. Why is it important to educate these markets?

I'm conscious of where these discussions can go so I'll not pursue it any further after this, if that's ok, so your free to answer or ignore.

Kess73

copacetic wrote: »

Even the HJC statement doesn't claim they said 'all'. The post ealier on calling the club liars for claiming 'all' is ironically a lie.

A number of families would be disgusted at any suggestion that the HJC represent them, but it doesn't put 'some' families in all it's PR. Personally i dont see a problem with that, but apparently it's one rule for them and another for the rest.

What are you waffling about ? That's a very ignorant comment to say that it is one rule for the HJC and another for all the rest.


Here is a bit more from the HJC for you

The kit design is not an issue. The fact that some families/groups were "contacted", yet others not, is.

I have already said that in my opinion all of the families should have been contacted not some. That means all those that are affiliated with the HJC, all those affilliated with HFSG, and all that have gone with Anne Williams.


If you don't think that the simple courtesy of contacting all 96 families should have happened, then just come out and say it. I think all should have been contacted.

As for the use of the word "all", well maybe you should go and find what wording a club representative used at the launch of the new kit before you go calling me a liar.

LuckyLloyd

Orando Broom wrote: »

Fair enough but your post doesn't really answer my question. Why is it important to educate these markets?

I'm conscious of where these discussions can go so I'll not pursue it any further after this, if that's ok, so your free to answer or ignore.

The tragedy is the most significant moment in the club's history - far more important (dreadfully so) than the winning or losing of any football match or series of matches. If kids who were born many years after it happened take an interest in Liverpool, or people from overseas start following the club - there should be some simple way to draw attention to the event. Hopefully kids or people outside Liverpool not familiar with the event will see the 96 and ask, "what's that?" and go find out.

Anyone who wants to involve themselves with the club should be aware of the tragedy and never forget those who shamefully lost their lives as a result of it.

Kess73

Dr Galen wrote: »

Kess, correct me if I am wrong here, but HJC and HFSG don't exactly see eye to eye.

There is a long history there, and to be perfectly honest its not a debate that I'd ever want to claim to know lots about. I do know though that is a very emotive topic. I wouldn't ever judge one side or the other tbh, as a non-native, non directly affected Liverpool fan, I don't feel it is my place.

I can't seem to find an official statement from the club on this, so it's probably a bit premature to be judging their actions. I do find it strange though that the club doesn't seem to acknowledge HJC in the same way that it does for HFSG.

The HFSG came first. Then a portion split from it to form the HJC. Then Anne Williams split to do her thing.

There is no "right or wrong" group imho as all suffered terrible loss. My point is that the club should have consulted all 96 families, and if they were not going to do so, then they should have made sure that a club representative worded their statement better at the launch.

But the day is still quite young so I am sure that plenty will come out on other sites throughout the day and will be reposted on here, and maybe someone will have a youtube video to put up. Then copacetic can come back and back up his liar comment and his snide one rule for them and one for the rest comment.

LuckyLloyd

It seems fairly obvious to me that the club should treat all families (and representative groups of same) equally and take the time to do, say or write things three times (or 96 times) if that is what is required.

Kess73

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It seems to me fairly obvious to me that the club should treat all families (and representative groups of same) equally and take the time to do, say or write things three times (or 96 times) if that is what is required.

And that is pretty much my point.

Dr Galen

There does seem to be an issue with the clarity of the message that came from the club regarding the new shirt and how they consulted those affected. I wonder if something like this was the straw that broke the camels back with regards to Ian Cotton?

Is there a reason why HJC doesn't get the same recognition from the club?

tok9

Dr Galen wrote: »

There does seem to be an issue with the clarity of the message that came from the club regarding the new shirt and how they consulted those affected. I wonder if something like this was the straw that broke the camels back with regards to Ian Cotton?

Is there a reason why HJC doesn't get the same recognition from the club?

I was thinking the same. Some timing anyway.

LuckyLloyd

Let's be honest, based on the information we have to hand the man can have no complaints at losing his job given his performance over the past period. We can do an awful lot better with this stuff.

slingerz

Defoe looking for Spurs exit, could be a shrewd signing for Liverpool give them the goalscorer they've missed and he'd link up well with Carroll and Suarez in theory.

amiable

slingerz wrote: »

Defoe looking for Spurs exit, could be a shrewd signing for Liverpool give them the goalscorer they've missed and he'd link up well with Carroll and Suarez in theory.

He'll be 30 this year so unless he was a bargain I wouldn't go after him.
I'm not sure of his stats but he does seem to only score goals in snatches.
He seems to hit purple patches but equally goes through spells where he can't score.
There seems to be better value outside the EPL. Papiss Cisse was bought for roughly what Spurs would have wanted for Defoe in January.

Slattsy

slingerz wrote: »

Defoe looking for Spurs exit, could be a shrewd signing for Liverpool give them the goalscorer they've missed and he'd link up well with Carroll and Suarez in theory.

I'd bite the hand off Arry is he puts him up for sale. A very good finisher inside the box, exactly what we've been missing over the last few years.

mike65

DeFoe has 18 months left on his contract.

amiable

mike65 wrote: »

DeFoe has 18 months left on his contract.

Surely it's 13 or 14 months left?
As in he's entering the last year as this season all but over?

slingerz

mike65 wrote: »

DeFoe has 18 months left on his contract.

Thats amazing mike but what are you saying this means exactly? I'd imagine he'd be a good signing and given the chances missed this season he'd certainly had put some of them away

missingtime

Any reason why Defoe hasnt featured for Spurs? Is it purely because of Adebayor?

mike65

I just note that fact. What would he cost 8 million? 10 million?

D'Agger

We won't get good value for him - especially with wages I'd imagine, would prefer us looking to a younger alternative

A few years ago I would have liked Defoe with us tbh but not now

Slattsy

mike65 wrote: »

I just note that fact. What would he cost 8 million? 10 million?

5 million and Henderson, final offer.

ardinn

mike65 wrote: »

I just note that fact. What would he cost 8 million? 10 million?

I'd say less - But we should open with a €45m bid just to be sure!

amiable

mike65 wrote: »

I just note that fact. What would he cost 8 million? 10 million?

If he's approaching the final year of his contract I'd say around 6/7 million.
Probably still better value out there and the hints coming out of FSG are that it will be mostly young players bought this summer.

willowthewisp

The Clubs stance has always been that they deal directly with the HFSG and this is because they were the first group formed at the time of the disaster.
Their point has been that they can’t be seen to engage with every single group formed and HFSG contained all the families at the beginning.

Also HFSG is more a support group, and the HJC are more political. The club don’t want to be involved in political campaigns.

amiable

Slattsy wrote: »

5 million and Henderson, final offer.

I know you are joking but I personally wouldn't sell Henderson now.

Hannibal

Both Rodallega and Diamé are leaving Wigan on frees this summer, both play in positions we need to strengthen and are internationals for Colombia and Senegal. I personally thought they were probably Wigan's two best players before this season.

Rodallega had two impressive seasons at Wigan but hasn't had a run in the side this season and had two seperate injuries ruling him out for for a month each, he's nearly 27.

Diamé is nearly 25, but hasn't really started for Wigan since returning from the ANC at the start of February. Since then he is generally brought on to shore things up near the end of games.

Are they good enough?

Hannibal

Slattsy wrote: »

5 million and Henderson, final offer.

for Defoe?? that would be lunacy to let Henderson go, he's been getting better all season and he's 21. An offer of £16m+ and we might consider it

amiable

Dotsey wrote: »

Both Rodallega and Diamé are leaving Wigan on frees this summer, both play in positions we need to strengthen and are internationals for Colombia and Senegal. I personally thought they were probably Wigan's two best players before this season.

Rodallega had two impressive seasons at Wigan but hasn't had a run in the side this season and had two seperate injuries ruling him out for for a month each, he's nearly 27.

Diamé is nearly 25, but hasn't really started for Wigan since returning from the ANC at the start of February. Since then he is generally brought on to shore things up near the end of games.

Are they good enough?

Rodallega has only ever scored 24 goals for Wigan. Not good enough IMHO.
He'll probably join a promoted club or a club like Fulham.

I think you answered your own question on Diame. Not good enough to start for Wigan.

SlickRic

Dotsey wrote: »

Are they good enough?

no, we need to be improving on what we have, not merely backing it up, which is all they would do.

only Victor Moses would improve us from Wigan, or perhaps Al-Habsi given Reina's terrible year-long form.

from those bottom end EPL teams, there are no real stand-out players that would improve the team. Hoilett, and as i say, Moses are really the only ones that i'd take.

there are certainly no CMs, and in terms of strikers, Steven Fletcher is the only one i'd get, and he wouldn't even improve us. he'd just give us another option.

we need to be looking abroad.

martingriff

In relation to Henderson I know he has had not had a good season but he is young and I doubt he thought he be playing as much as he was. He has potential. But i remember a midfielder who plays for us who got dogs abuse (including myself) for his crap play. I think he is brazilian. God what is his name again!!!!

amiable

I think Victor Moses may be all huff and puff with no end product.
I'm undecided about Hoillet yet. He has talent but is he good enough to get to the top I'm not sure. I have a feeling Bayern Munich will take a chance on him. Not sure if he'll succeed if he goes there.

Slattsy

Personally I'd let Henderson go, I don't think he cuts the mustard to be honest. I can see a case for keeping him though..

I'd be interested in Hoilette from Blackburn now they're relegated, I think he's a very good player. May not cost too much.

mike65

Matt Jarvis don't forget Matt Jarvis, can dribble a ball and beat a man in a way that Downing can only dream about these days.

DeFoe at the right price would be interesting, he's still nimble enough to be able to partner either Carroll or Suarez or indeed work the line alone with the likes of Gerrard, a good winger or attacking full back providing the ammo.

amiable

martingriff wrote: »

In relation to Henderson I know he has had not had a good season but he is young and I doubt he thought he be playing as much as he was. He has potential. But i remember a midfielder who plays for us who got dogs abuse (including myself) for his crap play. I think he is brazilian. God what is his name again!!!!

Doni?

Hannibal

martingriff wrote: »

In relation to Henderson I know he has had not had a good season but he is young and I doubt he thought he be playing as much as he was. He has potential. But i remember a midfielder who plays for us who got dogs abuse (including myself) for his crap play. I think he is brazilian. God what is his name again!!!!

People only criticised that Brazilian because when he played his name wasn't Mascherano or Alonso, no one bothered to look at how he played. The truth is he's probably better than Mascherano now, he's more tactical and disciplined whereas Masch was always rash and flying into tackles, Masch would cover the ground quicker than him though.

Hannibal

mike65 wrote: »

Matt Jarvis don't forget Matt Jarvis, can dribble a ball and beat a man in a way that Downing can only dream about these days.

DeFoe at the right price would be interesting, he's still nimble enough to be able to partner either Carroll or Suarez or indeed work the line alone with the likes of Gerrard, a good winger or attacking full back providing the ammo.

Downing got into a full sprint in the FA Cup final against I think Ivanovic and he lookied lightning when he got going, most of our players say he's one of the quickest in the team. You would never notice it from his game, he doesn't seem to know how to create openings to use his pace.

I agree about Defoe and that's what I think he'd be perfect for, he fits of the bill of the type of forward that could blend with both Carroll and Suarez, Defoe doesn't always deliver though and tends to have good runs and bad runs of form all through his career.

Sappy404

Dotsey wrote: »

Continued investment means you don't stand still and you should always be looking at the market and players ready to improve, it doesn't mean he was looking for millions. He wanted to know his budget and know exactly what he had to work with so he could approach players early. He also talked about investing in youth and that financially we couldn't compete with Chelsea, United and City and we had to be cleverer than them, these wouldn't be the quotes of a chequebook manager.

Think back to the time he had a row with Hicks and Gillett in late 2007 because they didn't want to know about the upcoming January window and were trying to bring in Klinsmann as manager, Rafa went into an interview and basically answered "As always I am focused on training and coaching my team" to every question. Rafa knew they didn't have a clue about running a football club and they thought that you spend money every couple of years but the truth is a team needs continued investment and needs to constantly looked at and improved where possible.

You think the cheap players bought by Rafa only came for CL football? We are Liverpool not Spurs or Everton ffs. They all came from smallish clubs like Deportivo, Villarreal, Real Sociedad etc

Rafa is a top class manager and any club would be lucky to have him plus he genuinely loves this club and city. If we are to change manager I do think he'd be close to the top of the list. The danger is to not sack Dalglish and then end up with average managers who don't care about the club and only want Liverpool on their CV's ala Hodgson or O'Neill etc.

I just want to clarify, I consider Rafa a legend for what he did with the club and I have no doubt that he's an incredible manager. There's literally nobody I'd rather have managing the club if Kenny should leave, but only under the right circumstances.

I'm struggling to find it on youtube, but watching a stream of the WBA match a few weeks ago, there was a managerial profile of Benitez on at half-time. Clips of interviews, match highlights, achievements etc. There was one interview clip, it looked like it was from LFC TV, wherein he states how difficult it is for mid-level clubs to break into the Champions League because they don't have the players. He's fairly forthcoming in stating that his tactics only really work because he has the right calibre of player to do what he wants them to do. His point was that other managers in the PL aren't as fortunate as he is, but it makes a lot of sense when you look at the noises he's made at Liverpool and Inter about getting the players he wants.

I'm not for a second implying that he's not entitled to complain when he's not able to sign who he wants, or that he's a lesser manager for it, but if the circumstances aren't in place for him to make the ideal return (i.e. unless FSG would give him regular backing in the from of investment) then I'm not sure the time is right.

LuckyLloyd

slingerz wrote: »

Defoe looking for Spurs exit, could be a shrewd signing for Liverpool give them the goalscorer they've missed and he'd link up well with Carroll and Suarez in theory.

You really do love yourself some Premiership players!

Personally, I'd be avoiding the EPL this summer given our limited budget. The trend in recent years has been players from European leagues moving for lower than expected fees.

LuckyLloyd

I'm not saying it would be a reason to hire him but, in the event that Benitez did return this summer, if we went through a two year process with him and were in the same place we are now we could let him go and the club would be free as a bird to move on for ever more satisfied that there is no former manager with a sense of unfinished business.

ush

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not saying it would be a reason to hire him but, in the event that Benitez did return this summer, if we went through a two year process with him and were in the same place we are now we could let him go and the club would be free as a bird to move on for ever more satisfied that there is no former manager with a sense of unfinished business.

You forgot Hodgson.

amiable

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not saying it would be a reason to hire him but, in the event that Benitez did return this summer, if we went through a two year process with him and were in the same place we are now we could let him go and the club would be free as a bird to move on for ever more satisfied that there is no former manager with a sense of unfinished business.

What about Souness?


















only kidding

Hannibal

Sappy404 wrote: »

I just want to clarify, I consider Rafa a legend for what he did with the club and I have no doubt that he's an incredible manager. There's literally nobody I'd rather have managing the club if Kenny should leave, but only under the right circumstances.

I'm struggling to find it on youtube, but watching a stream of the WBA match a few weeks ago, there was a managerial profile of Benitez on at half-time. Clips of interviews, match highlights, achievements etc. There was one interview clip, it looked like it was from LFC TV, wherein he states how difficult it is for mid-level clubs to break into the Champions League because they don't have the players. He's fairly forthcoming in stating that his tactics only really work because he has the right calibre of player to do what he wants them to do. His point was that other managers in the PL aren't as fortunate as he is, but it makes a lot of sense when you look at the noises he's made at Liverpool and Inter about getting the players he wants.

I'm not for a second implying that he's not entitled to complain when he's not able to sign who he wants, or that he's a lesser manager for it, but if the circumstances aren't in place for him to make the ideal return (i.e. unless FSG would give him regular backing in the from of investment) then I'm not sure the time is right.

He was complaining at Liverpool because he could see us going backwards and having to sell our important players to be able to free up funds to try compete.

At Inter he didn't buy one player, the only players that arrived were loan returns of Biabiany and Coutinho. As we know the Inter squad is very old and during his six months there was 44 injuries to first team players due in part to their exploits the pervious season and the World Cup. At Inter he missed out on one Alexis Sanchez for around £10m because Moratti didn't rate him. Similarly at Liverpool we missed out on Ramsey, Pato and Dani Alves for similar reasons due to people not rating them or not willing to spend the extra £4m in Alves's case which would've been the difference between him and Pennant

Kess73

willowthewisp wrote: »

The Clubs stance has always been that they deal directly with the HFSG and this is because they were the first group formed at the time of the disaster.
Their point has been that they can’t be seen to engage with every single group formed and HFSG contained all the families at the beginning.

Also HFSG is more a support group, and the HJC are more political. The club don’t want to be involved in political campaigns.

The simple point is that the club should have contacted all 96 families.

What any group stands for is irrelevent in this case. In fact the group names, agenda, whatever should mean nothing in all of this. One letter to each family or one organised group meeting for a member of each family to attend would have done it. There would be no need for banners or group names, just the club contacting the families as people who share in a common loss.

Even a letter to each family that stated the club wished to honour the 96 by placing the eternal flames alongside 96 on the back of the shirt would have done. Instead what happened is some families were contacted and the rest heard nothing. Nobody would have objected to what was on the shirt. All would have given it their blessing imho, but it does leave a bit of a sour taste in the mouth that the club seems to have chosen who it contacted based on what group the families were involved with.

All the families are equal in my eyes because they all suffered a terrible loss that day. But with the release of the new kit it seems that some losses were not worth the token gesture of club contact whereas other losses were.

Some on here might not understand why that hurts, and it is nothing to do with hubris, but it has everything to do with feeling that the family member and friends you lost were not worth the club's time on this and I know that there are a number of other families in Liverpool today that feel the same way.

whatawaster

SlickRic wrote: »

from those bottom end EPL teams, there are no real stand-out players that would improve the team. Hoilett, and as i say, Moses are really the only ones that i'd take.

there are certainly no CMs, and in terms of strikers, Steven Fletcher is the only one i'd get, and he wouldn't even improve us. he'd just give us another option.

we need to be looking abroad.

James McCarthy would be definitely be our second best central midfielder after Lucas. He would probably cost in excess of 10m though and I'm sure better value is to be had on the continent

wonderfullife

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The tragedy is the most significant moment in the club's history - far more important (dreadfully so) than the winning or losing of any football match or series of matches. If kids who were born many years after it happened take an interest in Liverpool, or people from overseas start following the club - there should be some simple way to draw attention to the event. Hopefully kids or people outside Liverpool not familiar with the event will see the 96 and ask, "what's that?" and go find out.

Anyone who wants to involve themselves with the club should be aware of the tragedy and never forget those who shamefully lost their lives as a result of it.

surely this implies having the "96" somewhere on the club shirt for eternity? i.e. every season it must be there, otherwise that argument is moot.

Also, where on the shirt should the Heysel disaster be remembered? As much as Hillsborough was an out-and-out tragedy, so was Heysel, yet i don't see any mention of the Juventus fans who died on this forum. A plaque at Anfield is simply not enough imo. Perhaps the numbers "85" and "89" either side of a symbol on the back of the shirt to represent the years in question would be a nice touch.