News and star - Marks and Spencer's interested in area

merlante

mike65 wrote: »

Would you like your hand to be any higher? God forbid that people can buy a home with gardens and a drive! One wonders what Waterford would look like squeezed into about 2 square miles A mess of badly built "Soviet" highrises or 60s style sink estates.

There are plenty of "undesirables" in suburbia btw.

People can live wherever they like, but if they live far away from facilities that comes with a set of consequences. Unfortunately, more often than not, the attitude seems to be, I don't want to move, move the shops instead -- which is ridiculous. Presumably then when buildings reach the terrifying, sun-blocking scale of 3-4 stories, people will flee further outwards, and subsequently demand (again) that the shops should be brought out to them, and so on, until we have LA with a hundredth of the population.

lassykk wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

First off, it's not just my interest in keeping the city centre alive, it's the interest of all those who want Waterford to be a thriving urban centre. The reasons you yourself cite for shopping in Kilkenny/Carlow back up my point nicely, i.e. "you can do it all in one / two shopping centres". This is exactly what we should have and maintain in Waterford, a compact city centre with everything within walking distance.

As for your other comments about Waterford, if you don't want to live or shop in Waterford, then good riddance.

wmpdd3

After years of working in Waterford town centre I do love it.

But now I have 2 kids and a double buggy. Its car or nothing. The only spacious car parks are on the quay, the new layout is a nightmare at the moment, so I just dont go to town.

The buggy doesnt fit on the bus.. I've tried. The odd time I do the 30 min walk into town and back.

The only time I get to go shopping in after 7:30pm on a Friday evening when both are in bed and i go on my own.

Just an insight into something I wouldn't have had a clue about 3 years ago!

wellboytoo

lassykk wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Any chance of a rapid hand movement button?

fricatus

wmpdd3 wrote: »

But now I have 2 kids and a double buggy. Its car or nothing. The only spacious car parks are on the quay, the new layout is a nightmare at the moment, so I just dont go to town.

(...)

Just an insight into something I wouldn't have had a clue about 3 years ago!

As I don't have kids, ultimately I can't fully understand the difficulties that clearly come with a double buggy, but what is it in particular that's so challenging?

I drive everywhere myself and have no difficulty getting a parking space down at the Clyde Wharf at whatever time, say on a Saturday at lunchtime or afternoon. I park by the crossing there, wander up the Quay and then I'm in town.

Is it the parking, or is it hard to get a double buggy up along the Quay (I'm not being facetious, just wondering - it seems wide enough!). Or is it just getting in and out of all the shops around town that's the problem?

merlante

wmpdd3 wrote: »

After years of working in Waterford town centre I do love it.

But now I have 2 kids and a double buggy. Its car or nothing. The only spacious car parks are on the quay, the new layout is a nightmare at the moment, so I just dont go to town.

The buggy doesnt fit on the bus.. I've tried. The odd time I do the 30 min walk into town and back.

The only time I get to go shopping in after 7:30pm on a Friday evening when both are in bed and i go on my own.

Just an insight into something I wouldn't have had a clue about 3 years ago!

Just one thing about the new road layouts, the roads are generally being narrowed to be benefit of the footpaths, which are getting wider, so better for a double buggy... The quay is also far safer to cross now with more pedestrian traffic lights. I think the quay will be fine when it's finished.

deisemum

I've got a side by side double buggy and usually park in City Square. Some shops are difficult to enter or get around with a double buggy especially if you've to try and open double doors that are not automated. The challenge is finding somewhere that you can access to change a nappy if you've got a double buggy.

Parking spaces are narrow if you've got to try and take out and put in a rock-a-tot or worse two rock-a-tots. I avoid the city centre if I've got a couple of babies/toddlers unless necessary or have a second adult and go by myself at the weekend or Friday evenings.

spankmemunkey

fricatus wrote: »

I saw a feature there a few weeks ago about Limerick in which it said that the city centre is dying on its feet. This is as a direct result of the Parkway and Crescent shopping centres taking all the good retail out of the city centre. Loads of shops like H&M and Zara are in Limerick but not in the centre, so the centre is full of boarded-up shops.

I was also in Erie, PA, in the States there about two years back and they told me that the downtown has basically died since they opened this mega mall called Millcreek. All your Macy's and Abercrombie & Fitch are in the mall and there's only offices and McDonalds in the downtown. It's quite a nice city, but having the retail heart ripped out of it has really dealt it a blow.

The planners in Waterford are trying not to repeat these mistakes by not allowing anything bigger than "neighbourhood centres" anywhere other than the city centre. Of course our friends in Kilkenny County Council totally undermined that policy by allowing Ferrybank to be built.

Everything should be done to get Newgate up and running, and a critical mass of quality shops in the city centre, before Ferrybank opens and Waterford slides down the slippery slope that Erie and Limerick have gone down. Arguments about "convenience" have to be secondary to this, because otherwise we'll just have a string of out-of-town centres that we can only reach by driving, and a dead city centre. We do not need that!

Well made point but something tells me you work in planning or for the city council? As a parent the idea of going into town with children just to go to Marks and Spencers would put me off, I would like to go to Marks and Spencers but having to get into the car go into traffic in town, park, load the kids out of the car have the kids screamig and messin as we go around the shop would just put me off, some of these annoying things are inevitable but the fewer annoyances the better. I suppose that brings us back to convenience. however i think Marks and Spencers would take these kind of factors into consideration when they are location planning.

spankmemunkey

wmpdd3 wrote: »

After years of working in Waterford town centre I do love it.

But now I have 2 kids and a double buggy. Its car or nothing. The only spacious car parks are on the quay, the new layout is a nightmare at the moment, so I just dont go to town.

The buggy doesnt fit on the bus.. I've tried. The odd time I do the 30 min walk into town and back.

The only time I get to go shopping in after 7:30pm on a Friday evening when both are in bed and i go on my own.

Just an insight into something I wouldn't have had a clue about 3 years ago!

agreed

spankmemunkey

merlante wrote: »

First off, the council are to be congratulated for sticking to their guns on out of town shopping. In the long run, it would be far better to delay M&S for 10-15 years than to destroy the centre. I *hope* that those of you who continuously whinge about the quality of shopping in the city centre and about the parking charges not being "worth it" will all agree with me (wishful thinking!). For a city of Waterford's size, there is only one chance of creating a strong retail offering capable of drawing people from throughout the region, and that is to strengthen the centre, not to distribute the retail offering around the fringes of the city where they will not create a critical mass. Maybe *you* might know that there is an M&S on the old Waterford Crystal site, for example, but how many people from outside Waterford will know? Will the council be expected to add to the already extensive signage to point people towards M&S? Would people drive between town and the old Crystal site to compare jeans, thus creating more traffic, or just pick one and live with less choice?

I know that parking is free out of town but people seem to forget that by distributing retail right around the city, you are paying for it in fuel and wasted time. You are also paying for it indirectly through the economics of urban sprawl. The more sprawl the more roads, etc. that the council have to administer and the less cash there is for civic improvements, etc.

If you find that it is hassle to get into the city centre then maybe you should look at your living arrangements. People seem to think when they buy a house on the edge of town that it is the council's fault that town is inaccessible to them. It isn't, it's your fault for moving to a poor location. (Similarly, parking difficulties may be alleviated in many cases by trading down your SUV.) Living in town puts you within walking distance of everything, which is of particular benefit if you are elderly, disabled, students without cars and those with a low income. Putting an M&S on the edge of town makes it completely inaccessible for a good slice of the population. (Although maybe some people prefer that such undesirables are excluded.) Also, despite the larger population in areas like the Dunmore rd., the population is spread over a vast area. The inner centre has a higher population density, which in effect puts as many if not more people within walking distance of shops.

Suggesting that TK Maxx is now in a terrible location is laughable considering that it's previous location was miles from any residential population. Of course people who live on the outskirts and are wedded to their car think it's in a worse location, but it is now convenient for a whole other cohort of people that could not have reached it before. It is making the parking charges more palatable, is it not? I also think that Waterford is too small for this phenomenon of well to do people shopping in one place and poor people shopping in another. It's better for everyone, or at least for most people, if the population is lumped in together and shop in one location.

The council may well go with Millar's Marsh, but the Newgate site would be far better. On the parking issue in general, if the Millar's Marsh site were selected, replacement parking would have to be provided by M&S one suspects. Which might be mean "digging" or maybe facilitating the council to build a carpark for the city nearby. The Waterside seems like an obvious candidate, but they are developing that anyway...

Why would people be coming from out of town to go to Marks and Spencers? There are other Marks and Spencers you know.

There isnt a decent enough size unit in town to hold a Marks and Spencers.

merlante

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Why would people be coming from out of town to go to Marks and Spencers? There are other Marks and Spencers you know.

There isnt a decent enough size unit in town to hold a Marks and Spencers.

Well there aren't that many M&Ss in the south east, and Waterford could expect to get a larger and better one, and if it were in the city centre with all the other shops in walking distance, you could hope to offer the best shopping experience in the south east. People can and do come to Waterford to shop. If, on the other hand, you put M&S out on the outer ring road, people are much less likely to come to Waterford to shop because the offering is spread out around the city and there is no cohesive shopping experience to offer consumers.

I guarantee it's the same people who are looking for out of town shopping in Waterford are the ones who go on and on about how good the shopping is in Kilkenny, because, basically, everything is in the one place. You can park in the McDonagh centre and walk to all the shops in the town. That's what you need.

daenerysstormborn3

As an earlier poster suggested what about the old cinema? It's in the city centre. I suppose the only thing it wouldn't have would be on site parking but sure there's loads of parking around the city.

mike65

Whats the story with Londis/Besco in Ballybricken?

mike65

Just had another thought - given the number of TESCOs in the city could they make a cheeky bid for the Poleberry store? Dunno how its doing but it never seems that busy (as judged by the car park) when I go past.

Psychedelic

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Well made point but something tells me you work in planning or for the city council? As a parent the idea of going into town with children just to go to Marks and Spencers would put me off, I would like to go to Marks and Spencers but having to get into the car go into traffic in town, park, load the kids out of the car have the kids screamig and messin as we go around the shop would just put me off, some of these annoying things are inevitable but the fewer annoyances the better. I suppose that brings us back to convenience. however i think Marks and Spencers would take these kind of factors into consideration when they are location planning.

If your children are a hassle for you when going into town that's not the Council's fault. And it doesn't make a difference where the shop is located if you're kids are going to be "screamig and messin" around the shop. It's just part of the hassles that come with being a parent.

deisemum

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Well made point but something tells me you work in planning or for the city council? As a parent the idea of going into town with children just to go to Marks and Spencers would put me off, I would like to go to Marks and Spencers but having to get into the car go into traffic in town, park, load the kids out of the car have the kids screamig and messin as we go around the shop would just put me off, some of these annoying things are inevitable but the fewer annoyances the better. I suppose that brings us back to convenience. however i think Marks and Spencers would take these kind of factors into consideration when they are location planning.

The same can be said for any shop in the city centre or even any supermarket be it in the city centre or on the outskirts. If children are screaming and messing every single time you go out that's a discipline issue and nothing to do with the planners.

merlante

deisemum wrote: »

The same can be said for any shop in the city centre or even any supermarket be it in the city centre or on the outskirts. If children are screaming and messing every single time you go out that's a discipline issue and nothing to do with the planners.

Sounds like the real solution here is the birch.

wellboytoo

pixiebean22 wrote: »

As an earlier poster suggested what about the old cinema? It's in the city centre. I suppose the only thing it wouldn't have would be on site parking but sure there's loads of parking around the city.

The footprint is way to small, M&S would not look at something this size for Waterford, and it is also owned by a group who are famous for doing it their way and no other!

daenerysstormborn3

wellboytoo wrote: »

The footprint is way to small, M&S would not look at something this size for Waterford, and it is also owned by a group who are famous for doing it their way and no other!

I've never been in the old cinema, have only ever seen it on the outside but is it really too small? Could they not stick in a decent sized two storey M&S there? I would've imagined it stretches back quite far behind the likes of Sam McCauley and Footlocker.

Hoffmans

the plans have been in for this devolepment for a while now, included is a penthouse knockin shop on the upper level
decision is due on April 1st...:

hardybuck

wellboytoo wrote: »

The footprint is way to small, M&S would not look at something this size for Waterford, and it is also owned by a group who are famous for doing it their way and no other!

I've been in a number of smaller convenience store sized M&S outlets in the UK not just in city centres, but in subarbs also.

200motels

RobitTV wrote: »

Read in the news and star today that marks and Spencer's are interested in the car park next to storm cinemas, they said it was a good site.

There has been no confirmation of anything, just that they were interested in the area.

Anyone else read this?

It's probably an April fool headline.

fricatus

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Well made point but something tells me you work in planning or for the city council? As a parent...

No, I don't work in planning, or for the city council, or for the chamber of commerce, or anything remotely like that. I work for an American multinational (in a completely unrelated discipline), and my interest in these matters is purely a personal one. I'm motivated by nothing other than being a proud Waterfordian who wants the place to be a great, vibrant city.

I'm very much into seeing cities when I travel, and I'm fascinated by the dynamics of what makes them tick. I've seen cities in Europe, Asia, North America and Australia and it's always fascinating to see how they're planned, where different activities take place, and the "shape" that results.

I feel that Waterford is at a crossroads between the increasingly car-dominated North American "doughnut" pattern and the more concentrated European "centre-centric" layout, and I worry about the threat that this poses to our historic centre.

I don't think America does cities very well generally, aside from the ones it does very well, like Seattle, San Francisco and New York. For example Pittsburgh is a fine city with about twice the population of Dublin, but the centre (which is beautiful incidentally) is quite small and not all that vibrant.

Many of the major shops there have no Downtown representation - they're only in the mega malls. They're trying hard to redevelop the downtown area but it's an uphill struggle now. Whisper it, but there's a certain social and racial segregation to all this too... If a great old city like Pittsburgh can be hollowed out like that by planning mistakes, then what could happen to a much smaller place like Waterford?

mike65

I think we can safely say Marks and Sparks will not be heading in our direction for many a year.

iseegirls

mike65 wrote: »

I think we can safely say Marks and Sparks will not be heading in our direction for many a year.

According to this: http://www.thejournal.ie/ms-closures-ireland-1025729-Aug2013/, they're closing down 4 unprofitable stores.

Meanwhile they announced 250 new jobs at a store proposed to open in Limerick in 2016.

From what you have made out from your earlier quote, you'd think the M&S brand was finished.

Jason Todd

iseegirls wrote: »

According to this: http://www.thejournal.ie/ms-closures-ireland-1025729-Aug2013/, they're closing down 4 unprofitable stores.

Meanwhile they announced 250 new jobs at a store proposed to open in Limerick in 2016.

From what you have made out from your earlier quote, you'd think the M&S brand was finished.

Think you read too far into Mike's post there.

BBM77

mike65 wrote: »

I think we can safely say Marks and Sparks will not be heading in our direction for many a year.

Limerick has serious economic problems just like if not worse than Waterford and M&S are opening a store in Limerick. So I don’t see anything in todays announcement that would suggest they won’t open in Waterford. However, as I always strongly felt if they can’t come into the city centre I don’t want them. The new Limerick store is to be an out of town development…

mike65

They were already committed to Limerick and its quite a bit bigger, Waterford was never anything other than a maybe. This thread is over a year old, did we ever hear anything about planning?

wellboytoo

I think their announcement of a new store in limerick is more spin than substance, as they have no planning and are proposing to build in an out of town site in a City that has been destroyed by out of town developments.
I hear what you are saying Mike but would not throw in the towel yet if the City council pro vide the right package you would be surprised who might turn up.

Max Powers

wellboytoo wrote: »

I think their announcement of a new store in limerick is more spin than substance, as they have no planning and are proposing to build in an out of town site in a City that has been destroyed by out of town developments.
I hear what you are saying Mike but would not throw in the towel yet if the City council pro vide the right package you would be surprised who might turn up.

agree with that, M&S can p-off if they want an out of town development. I heard on WLR this morning that retail excellence Ireland is hopeful of a retail announcement in Waterford in next few months. Before the hopes, wishes and speculation start, please nobody suggest or hope for HMV

Junior

Hmm from Liz Reddy's Twitter feed this morning

Head of Retail Excellence Ireland is hopeful there will be good news soon about a large retailer coming to #Waterford City.

https://twitter.com/LilyReddy/status/365365405675552769

No idea whom that might refer to ..