Carragher, Neville & MNF On Sky

Owen_S

Out of all BBC, ITV and Sky analysts, he is the best IMO. What's even more surprising is the people who hated him as a player generally like him on Sky. I would love to see him arguing with Dunphy, Neville would put him in his place.

KingdomYid

He has come out with some good ones tonight. I do like him as a pundit.

strawberryb0y

I generally like him but couldn't agree with some of what he said tonight.
His excusing of the likes of Ashley Young is poor form in my opinion.

peterswellman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNx5ok60U6A

kryogen

Love Gary Neville

Edit: ****ing love Gary Neville!

Thats better.

Corholio

strawberryb0y wrote: »

I generally like him but couldn't agree with some of what he said tonight.
His excusing of the likes of Ashley Young is poor form in my opinion.

What did he say about the Ashley Young incident?

blue-army

Pains me to say it, but he's actually a top pundit!
Very impressive tonight, found myself agreeing with a lot that he was saying.

iseethelight

Big Liverpool fan here. He's doing a really good job and is v. interesting. Would like likee to see him without the sky restraints.

PhlegmyMoses

I think that's an incredible piece of analysis from Neville. You may disagree with what he says but he backs it up really well. Nothing he says isn't backed up with an example or an insightful story from his own career. To call it bad form and that he was trying to protect Young is not respecting the fact that he simply holds a different opinion. It's clear he has put a lot of thought into it and isn't just pulling it from his arse.

Corholio

Just watched what he said about the Young penalty, I like him as a pundit, but what he said about the tackle was ridiculous. He couldn't bring himself to say it was a dive, just that there was contact blah blah blah. There's contact because Young kicks Clark's static foot, thats not a penalty. Instead he wandered off saying something about how he hope Clark dosent feel sorry for himself because he could be playing in the Euro's, and he hope he dosent hang a leg out etc etc....wtf?? Had nothing to do with anything.

It's a pity because he's the only guy there I would have thought might have come out and rightly criticised it, but had his United cap firmly on.

kryogen

Corholio wrote: »

What did he say about the Ashley Young incident?

Watch the video!

He did not make any special excuses for Young, he treated his analysis of everybody the same, as evidenced by showing a Beckham dive, Lampard dive, Gerrard dive,Messi dive, also a Suarez booking for diving when he had been fouled and the same with Tevez. (took a look at recent incidents involving smaller clubs also)

He is a fair pundit and he simply says he doesnt like to get into calling players cheats as it is so widespread and it is being done by players also who are recognised as great fair play guys in the game etc.

Showed a funny Christopher Samba dive actually, I chuckled at that one and a few others

PhlegmyMoses

Corholio wrote: »

Just watched what he said about the Young penalty, I like him as a pundit, but what he said about the tackle was ridiculous. He couldn't bring himself to say it was a dive, just that there was contact blah blah blah. There's contact because Young kicks Clark's static foot, thats not a penalty. Instead he wandered off saying something about how he hope Clark dosent feel sorry for himself because he could be playing in the Euro's, and he hope he dosent hang a leg out etc etc....wtf?? Had nothing to do with anything.

It's a pity because he's the only guy there I would have thought might have come out and rightly criticised it, but had his United cap firmly on.

He literally says "It's a dive".....

kryogen

Corholio wrote: »

Just watched what he said about the Young penalty, I like him as a pundit, but what he said about the tackle was ridiculous. He couldn't bring himself to say it was a dive, just that there was contact blah blah blah. There's contact because Young kicks Clark's static foot, thats not a penalty. Instead he wandered off saying something about how he hope Clark dosent feel sorry for himself because he could be playing in the Euro's, and he hope he dosent hang a leg out etc etc....wtf?? Had nothing to do with anything.

It's a pity because he's the only guy there I would have thought might have come out and rightly criticised it, but had his United cap firmly on.

He said its a dive, He also said you can call it a dive, call it going down easy whatever you are comfortable with thats what it is.

Young doesnt go looking for Clarks foot with his right foot, he does with his left alright and misses which is why it looks ridiculous, but Young is planting his right foot to complete his change of direction and there is contact with Clarks right foot which has been left there. He did not excuse it in any way shape or form tbh.

Corholio

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

He literally says "It's a dive".....

Must have missed that bit then. He went on more about how Clark should be more careful etc. But if he did say that then I retract that part of what I said.

Corholio

kryogen wrote: »

He said its a dive, He also said you can call it a dive, call it going down easy whatever you are comfortable with thats what it is.

Young doesnt go looking for Clarks foot with his right foot, he does with his left alright and misses which is why it looks ridiculous, but Young is planting his right foot to complete his change of direction and there is contact with Clarks right foot which has been left there. He did not excuse it in any way shape or form tbh.

Fair enough.

I dont buy what he said about not calling players cheats because it's so widespread. If you do it once your a cheat, if theres 1000 other players doing it, its still cheating. The rule of a foul seems to be getting farther and farther away from the actual reason it was introduced in the first place.

kryogen

He does also say Clark should be more careful, in terms of putting himself in that position, leaving his leg there, he did try to get it out of the way but didnt move it quick enough. He is more making the point of the "lazy leg" as he called it, that defenders often plant there foot and allow the attacker to take advantage of the situation when they should be getting there leg out of the way asap

The_Kew_Tour

Corholio wrote: »

Must have missed that bit then. He went on more about how Clark should be more careful etc. But if he did say that then I retract that part of what I said.

Ya heard him say it was dive too.

He pretty much said you could call it what you like so cant be more unbiased then that.

kryogen

Corholio wrote: »

Fair enough.

I dont buy what he said about not calling players cheats because it's so widespread. If you do it once your a cheat, if theres 1000 other players doing it, its still cheating. The rule of a foul seems to be getting farther and farther away from the actual reason it was introduced in the first place.

Thats fair enough, but then basically every team is full of cheats and thats pretty sad for the sport. Most dont consider Messi a cheat yet he dives quite a bit, plenty consider Nani a cheat when he has cut out the diving mostly! Funny game

He wasnt saying he doesnt want to call a player a cheat because it was so widespread, i made that point poorly.

Its all there in the video and its only 14 minutes so I guess anyone wanting to know what he said can watch

Corholio

kryogen wrote: »

He does also say Clark should be more careful, in terms of putting himself in that position, leaving his leg there, he did try to get it out of the way but didnt move it quick enough. He is more making the point of the "lazy leg" as he called it, that defenders often plant there foot and allow the attacker to take advantage of the situation when they should be getting there leg out of the way asap

Should be getting it out of the way? In terms of the rules, or in terms of in case the player cheats? Defenders are at a clear disadvantage if this is the case.

PhlegmyMoses

The thing is, his whole point about Ciaran Clark is that it's an endemic part of the game now so defenders needs to wise up and box clever. Everybody has condemned diving and yet players still dive. He's basically telling everyone to face up to the realities of the situation.

I think he was also very wary of labeling anyone, not just Young, a cheat. Calling someone a cheat is a massive slur on their character. He's on live television, not an internet forum, so has to temper is language in light of that.

Like I said, he simply holds a different opinion. I don't think he holds it because of who he used to play for. I'm just glad that we're getting that kind of analysis. It's what we pay for.

Corholio

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The thing is, his whole point about Ciaran Clark is that it's an endemic part of the game now so defenders needs to wise up and box clever. Everybody has condemned diving and yet players still dive. He's basically telling everyone to face up to the realities of the situation.

I think he was also very wary of labeling anyone, not just Young, a cheat. Calling someone a cheat is a massive slur on their character. He's on live television, not an internet forum, so has to temper is language in light of that.

Like I said, he simply holds a different opinion. I don't think he holds it because of who he used to play for. I'm just glad that we're getting that kind of analysis. It's what we pay for.

Maybe i was a bit harsh on analysis on reflection, but I still dont think he went far enough. I think the problem we have with the situation is noone wants to say anything about anyone in case it upsets a friend of theirs somewhere, and if someone does, they get fined by the FA. Acceptance and fake condemnation is a sad path to go down and the game is already well on it's way down there.

kryogen

Corholio wrote: »

Should be getting it out of the way? In terms of the rules, or in terms of in case the player cheats? Defenders are at a clear disadvantage if this is the case.

Well, when an attacker gets the ball past a defender and looks to carry on, the defender cant leave a trailing leg or leave a leg in the way or its going to be a penalty most of the time.

Its a reality of the game.

As another poster has pointed out, Neville couldnt really come out and call anybody a cheat because of the position he is in. Very different to you or me calling someone a cheat.

Red Crow

Would love to see James Richardson and Neville.

That might make me give my money back to Sky. All their other pundits from Dwight Yorke to Jamie Redknapp are atrocious.

kryogen

Corholio wrote: »

Maybe i was a bit harsh on analysis on reflection, but I still dont think he went far enough. I think the problem we have with the situation is noone wants to say anything about anyone in case it upsets a friend of theirs somewhere, and if someone does, they get fined by the FA. Acceptance and fake condemnation is a sad path to go down and the game is already well on it's way down there.

I disagree here, Neville and Beckham are best friends and he still showed a Beckham dive, if he was worried about upsetting a friend he would have just left him out of the topic altogether surely.

Contrary to what you are saying, that noone wants to say anything about it, he has spent 15 minutes almost talking directly about it and been very honest too.

Football is not a bastion of fairness, was it ever? certainly not in my lifetime anyway.

I will give you another example for why Neville cannot come out and say Mr x is a cheat, Mr x can then sue him and sky for defamation of character I believe

cson

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The thing is, his whole point about Ciaran Clark is that it's an endemic part of the game now so defenders needs to wise up and box clever. Everybody has condemned diving and yet players still dive. He's basically telling everyone to face up to the realities of the situation.

I think he was also very wary of labeling anyone, not just Young, a cheat. Calling someone a cheat is a massive slur on their character. He's on live television, not an internet forum, so has to temper is language in light of that.

Like I said, he simply holds a different opinion. I don't think he holds it because of who he used to play for. I'm just glad that we're getting that kind of analysis. It's what we pay for.

I agree but is it rendering defending redundant if you simply can't touch someone in the penalty area? It is supposed to be a contact sport after all. Tell me what Shaun Derry did shouldn't happen because of players going down?

I think Neville is bang on in his analysis too. Would have loved to see him include 2 things; [1] A vid of Sky's darling boy Bale in action and [2] A clip of the Wolves - Arsenal match where Ramsey was fouled in the box (in terms of what goes for a foul nowadays) but got up, played on and took a shot - no penalty.

Corholio

kryogen wrote: »

I disagree here, Neville and Beckham are best friends and he still showed a Beckham dive, if he was worried about upsetting a friend he would have just left him out of the topic altogether surely.

Contrary to what you are saying, that noone wants to say anything about it, he has spent 15 minutes almost talking directly about it and been very honest too.

Football is not a bastion of fairness, was it ever? certainly not in my lifetime anyway.

Actually, and i should have said perhaps, I didnt mean Neville didnt want to say anything about it, i meant in the game generally dosent want to say anything about it or condemn it. Having watched it, Neville's gone farther than most, but something like that is the complete exception. Diving is still seen as a 'oh our player? he'd never do that" viewpoint, and as long as that remains, more players will do it.

Sanity_Saviour

kryogen wrote: »

He does also say Clark should be more careful, in terms of putting himself in that position, leaving his leg there, he did try to get it out of the way but didnt move it quick enough. He is more making the point of the "lazy leg" as he called it, that defenders often plant there foot and allow the attacker to take advantage of the situation when they should be getting there leg out of the way asap

So not only is it not Ashley Young's fault for being a cheating cint, it's Clark's fault for trying to defend a goal? You really are a truly awful and biased a poster sometimes.

PhlegmyMoses

Corholio wrote: »

Maybe i was a bit harsh on analysis on reflection, but I still dont think he went far enough. I think the problem we have with the situation is noone wants to say anything about anyone in case it upsets a friend of theirs somewhere, and if someone does, they get fined by the FA. Acceptance and fake condemnation is a sad path to go down and the game is already well on it's way down there.

He kind of summed up my views on diving. It's very hard to retroactively do anything about it unless it is completely obvious. Carroll's dive a few weeks ago was obvious as there was clearly no contact but Neville showed 3 incidents where players were booked for diving - the Tevez one in particular was crazy - but clearly didn't dive.

Dunphy and co. would outright call Young a cheat - he outed Roy Curtis as a love-rat FFS :P. You simply will not get that on English TV, no matter what. For what it's worth, I think Young dived and that it essentially is cheating. Although there was contact, Young created most of it and I hope he stops doing it. It's not as though we need it to win and it blots the copybook in games where better things will be forgotten as people talk about the dive.

PhlegmyMoses

Eli Manning wrote: »

Would love to see James Richardson and Neville.

That might make me give my money back to Sky. All their other pundits from Dwight Yorke to Jamie Redknapp are atrocious.

Dwight Yorke is abysmal. Andy Cole hasn't been much better in the few times he's been on. Wears a 3 piece suit like a boss, though.

kryogen

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

So not only is it not Ashley Young's fault for being a cheating cint, it's Clark's fault for trying to defend a goal? You really are a truly awful and biased a poster sometimes.

Yep, thats exactly what I said, bravo :rolleyes:

PhlegmyMoses

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

So not only is it not Ashley Young's fault for being a cheating cint, it's Clark's fault for trying to defend a goal? You really are a truly awful and biased a poster sometimes.

He's actually just clarifying what Neville said in his analysis. If you have a listen to the Youtube video, he talks aout lazy legs and the need to be lighter on your feet in the box etc.

Will I Amnt

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Dwight Yorke is abysmal.

He's thick as a plank.
His stat the other day was United have won 99% of games since Scholes came back

Guy:Incognito

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Young created most of it and I hope he stops doing it..

Why would he? He's getting penos and the FA bury their heads in the sand. He's being encouraged by being rewarded for doing it (penos).



As for Nevilles views on the dive? More copping out. "watch here, Clarke sticks his leg out" does he ****. He moves back with his legs stretched, his toe makes a slight forward move when Young flicks the ball then moves back away from Young a good few inches before Young moves in to him. Theres loads of space for Young to choose to go. You cant give a penatly becaus ea defender cant transport himself away from someone lookign to make contact with them. Do they expect Clarke to turn and run away to give Young a free run at the goal?

PhlegmyMoses

cambo2008 wrote: »

He's thick as a plank.
His stat the other day was United have won 99% of games since Scholes came back

73% of facts are made up on the spot etc, etc.

kryogen

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

He kind of summed up my views on diving. It's very hard to retroactively do anything about it unless it is completely obvious. Carroll's dive a few weeks ago was obvious as there was clearly no contact but Neville showed 3 incidents where players were booked for diving - the Tevez one in particular was crazy - but clearly didn't dive.

Dunphy and co. would outright call Young a cheat - he outed Roy Curtis as a love-rat FFS :P. You simply will not get that on English TV, no matter what. For what it's worth, I think Young dived and that it essentially is cheating. Although there was contact, Young created most of it and I hope he stops doing it. It's not as though we need it to win and it blots the copybook in games where better things will be forgotten as people talk about the dive.

As I said at the time, I feel it was a dive, I didnt like it then and I still dont like it now, it will start to come back on him sooner rather then later and that might end up costing the team. I hope he cuts it out of his game for the most part but tbh he has always been a diver.

PhlegmyMoses

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why would he? He's getting penos and the FA bury their heads in the sand. He's being encouraged by being rewarded for doing it (penos).

Yeah, it would take the whole league to enact a culture shift before anyone stops doing it. Which is impossible. Why should we stop doing it if they aren't is the attitude.

kryogen

cambo2008 wrote: »

He's thick as a plank.
His stat the other day was United have won 99% of games since Scholes came back

I have to say, I think Yorkie is hilarious and cringeworthy in equal amounts

He is useless at punditry!

Sanity_Saviour

kryogen wrote: »

Thats fair enough, but then basically every team is full of cheats and thats pretty sad for the sport. Most dont consider Messi a cheat yet he dives quite a bit, plenty consider Nani a cheat when he has cut out the diving mostly! Funny game

He wasnt saying he doesnt want to call a player a cheat because it was so widespread, i made that point poorly.

Its all there in the video and its only 14 minutes so I guess anyone wanting to know what he said can watch

Wow. Sometimes its hard to believe you're a serious poster.

kryogen

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

Wow. Sometimes its hard to believe you're a serious poster.

I'm not, I'm one of the voices in your head.

Will I Amnt

I think somebody has a little crush on you Kryogen ^^^^^^^^

Sanity_Saviour

kryogen wrote: »

I'm not, I'm one of the voices in your head.

What a super point. :rolleyes:

PhlegmyMoses

If he touched you, Sanity Saviour, you know you can tell us, right? A problem shared is a problem halved.

kryogen

cambo2008 wrote: »

I think somebody has a little crush on you Kryogen ^^^^^^^^

She actually does! I have checked her last few posts and they are all following me around threads like a puppy quoting me and responding with strange comments!

I feel all fuzzy inside! havent had a boards stalker in a while

kryogen

Dude! you spelt my name wrong!!

I wish I knew what I had done to deserve this ones attention, gotta be careful what you say to the younger ones, they are easily fooled into thinking its a long term thing

Red Crow

kryogen wrote: »

Dude! you spelt my name wrong!!

I wish I knew what I had done to deserve this ones attention, gotta be careful what you say to the younger ones, they are easily fooled into thinking its a long term thing

So did you!

kryogen

Ah where's the Gene Wilder pic gone

Love Gene Wilder!

J. Marston

Neville actually gives the impression that he researches the stuff he's talking about while the likes of Hansen and Shearer give the impression that they show up 30 minutes before the start of Match Of The Day and ask ''Who played today?'' and then throw out a couple of clichés.

Jamie Redknapp gives the impression that he eats glue before a Sky producer sits him in his chair.

Jesus Wept

It was an interesting piece from that Neville but still the xenophobia to suggest that diving was invented by foreigners 20 years ago.

hangballlouie wrote: »

In the studio, he is the best there is in England. Co-commentating he is ok, but when he is analysing in the studio he is quality.

I'm a Liverpool fan and was a bit worried when he got the gig full-time but he hasn't been biased at all in the EPL IMO.

He has a fantastic knowledge of the game. Has won it all, and played for and against great teams.

Sky should have just him and Souness doing the analysing from now on, get rid of the other clowns.

Btw, I got some stick from my LFC mates for buying it, but his book is a very good read. Recommended reading for all football fans.

Souness comes out with awful nonsense a lot of the time.

kryogen

He is sort of right, in a way though isnt he? Before the European and players from elsewhere came into the English leagues there wasnt a big diving culture was there?

I remember laughing when it was the big story that Klinsmann brought diving to England

I could be wrong of course, but I did think diving was mainly only a problem since the Premiership/Premier League, era?

Jesus Wept

I couldn't say but then I seriously doubt it could ever be proven so it seems unfair to keep implying it.

I don't buy that English players are just more honest than the foreigners. Or that they used to be. It's not like English players aren't diving now and regardless, does it matter if one group started it at this point, no.

Klinsmann was just theatrical in the extreme with it, so that probably fuels it a fair bit.

Also it was always going to get less attention before Sky invented football in the 90's and frame by frame replays.

My suspicion is that there is most likely a considerable correlation between the growing perception of the problem and the ever growing coverage of premier league matches, increased: punditry, facebook/twitterering, message boards posting, online and print media column inches.