Carragher, Neville & MNF On Sky

PhlegmyMoses

Latin countries are far more accepting of diving. It's a cultural thing. They seem to be more concerned about bad tackles than we are.

That's not a criticism, either. It's just a different sporting culture.

Giggsy11

cson wrote: »

I agree but is it rendering defending redundant if you simply can't touch someone in the penalty area? It is supposed to be a contact sport after all. Tell me what Shaun Derry did shouldn't happen because of players going down?

I think Neville is bang on in his analysis too. Would have loved to see him include 2 things; [1] A vid of Sky's darling boy Bale in action and [2] A clip of the Wolves - Arsenal match where Ramsey was fouled in the box (in terms of what goes for a foul nowadays) but got up, played on and took a shot - no penalty.

He did that, not that incident but showed incident from Spurs Vs Norwich game where Gallas clearly fouled but Norwich player was very honest enough to not go to the ground and in the end didn't get penalty. Instead for Corner kick.

Its a tricky situation, if a player is fouled and stays on feet they rarely gets decision and with so much money at stake I can't see them being popular with manager and teammates. I have seen Anelka not going down when fouled and not getting penalty decisions.

Rekop dog

kryogen wrote: »

He is sort of right, in a way though isnt he? Before the European and players from elsewhere came into the English leagues there wasnt a big diving culture was there?

I remember laughing when it was the big story that Klinsmann brought diving to England

I could be wrong of course, but I did think diving was mainly only a problem since the Premiership/Premier League, era?

He's not right! The growth in diving has coincided with the growth of the Premier league, where there's so much on the line financially every game and the decision to dive/not dive can be the difference between winning a title, getting in Europe or being relagated and the massive financial implications that come with this like a club potentially getting into massive debt problems when going down as we've seen with plenty during the prem era.

People blame 'the foreigners' as the massive influx naturally came with the growth of the Premiership, and then draw lazy conclusions like "we never had diving on this scale before they entered the league".

Will I Amnt

Rekop dog wrote: »

People blame 'the foreigners' as the massive influx naturally came with the growth of the Premiership, and then draw lazy conclusions like "we never had diving on this scale before they entered the league".

It's not as clear as that.I think he's right in saying it arrived with the foreign players.
It was going on in their leagues before they came to the EPL,it's not just coincidence for me.

Neville did another written piece on diving last week that was a very interesting read.

Edit: here it is http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2126567/Gary-Neville-Andy-Carrolls-dive-laugh--zero-tolerance-wont-ground.html

kryogen

Rekop dog wrote: »

He's not right! The growth in diving has coincided with the growth of the Premier league, where there's so much on the line financially every game and the decision to dive/not dive can be the difference between winning a title, getting in Europe or being relagated and the massive financial implications that come with this like a club potentially getting into massive debt problems when going down as we've seen with plenty during the prem era.

People blame 'the foreigners' as the massive influx naturally came with the growth of the Premiership, and then draw lazy conclusions like "we never had diving on this scale before they entered the league".

Thats kinda what I was saying dude! I remember laughing when Klinsmann "brought" diving to England! That diving has been growing mainly since the beginning of the Premiership, and the influx of foreign players on a greater scale began then too. They both happened around the same time, it does also have to be pointed out that diving is not seen as cheating in Latin countries especially and this cultural difference has left its mark on the English game also.

I dont blame the foreigners for the theatrics soley, I would put their influence down as part of the cause alright, and tbh a substantial part, but to ignore the financial factors and everything else and simply blame the foreigners would be wrong.

markie29

cambo2008 wrote: »

It's not as clear as that.I think he's right in saying it arrived with the foreign players.
It was going on in their leagues before they came to the EPL,it's not just coincidence for me.

Neville did another written piece on diving last week that was a very interesting read.

Diving was happening in england long before premier league started.....i remember seeing videos of games from the 1970s and Francis Lee was diving looking for penalties in every game.As for Gary Neville is more suited to being a studio analyst than a co commentator.

Rekop dog

cambo2008 wrote: »

Rekop dog wrote: »

People blame 'the foreigners' as the massive influx naturally came with the growth of the Premiership, and then draw lazy conclusions like "we never had diving on this scale before they entered the league".

It's not as clear as that.I think he's right in saying it arrived with the foreign players.
It was going on in their leagues before they came to the EPL,it's not just coincidence for me.

Neville did another written piece on diving last week that was a very interesting read.

Edit: here it is http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2126567/Gary-Neville-Andy-Carrolls-dive-laugh--zero-tolerance-wont-ground.html

It wasn't that comman in other leagues back then either, it's just there's lots of other leagues and just one English league so it's obviously going to be easier to find instances of diving from a gigantic sample compared to a smallish one.

Will I Amnt

Rekop dog wrote: »

It wasn't that comman in other leagues back then either, it's just there's lots of other leagues and just one English league so it's obviously going to be easier to find instances of diving from a gigantic sample compared to a smallish one.

Well according to that article it was ingrained into the kids he used to face when he was in his early teens.It's been around a lot longer on the continent,I think most would agree on that.

Will I Amnt

markie29 wrote: »

Diving was happening in england long before premier league started.....i remember seeing videos of games from the 1970s and Francis Lee was diving looking for penalties in every game.As for Gary Neville is more suited to being a studio analyst than a co commentator.

Maybe a few isolated incidents but not the culture of it that was going on elsewhere.

carlop

kryogen wrote: »

Thats kinda what I was saying dude! I remember laughing when Klinsmann "brought" diving to England! That diving has been growing mainly since the beginning of the Premiership, and the influx of foreign players on a greater scale began then too. They both happened around the same time, it does also have to be pointed out that diving is not seen as cheating in Latin countries especially and this cultural difference has left its mark on the English game also.

I dont blame the foreigners for the theatrics soley, I would put their influence down as part of the cause alright, and tbh a substantial part, but to ignore the financial factors and everything else and simply blame the foreigners would be wrong.

What are you counting as the Latin countries? I don't know too much about South America, but if you're including Italy you have to take into account that it is one of the few places where retrospective bans for diving have been given. Off the top of my head I think Quagliarella got one a couple of years back.

In Spain it may not be regarded quite as negatively as in the UK or Ireland, but it isn't far off. Go to Madrid and mention the word Dani Alves and the word 'tramposo' (cheat) will only be preceded by 'Hijo de la gran puta,' likewise Di Maria in Barcelona, or Diego Capel anywhere.

Neil3030

More money -> increased significance of victory -> successful diving increases chance of victory -> winning more important than dignity -> diving.

Edit: apologies just realised this is a thread about G-Nev, not diving.

kryogen

carlop wrote: »

What are you counting as the Latin countries? I don't know too much about South America, but if you're including Italy you have to take into account that it is one of the few places where retrospective bans for diving have been given. Off the top of my head I think Quagliarella got one a couple of years back.

In Spain it may not be regarded quite as negatively as in the UK or Ireland, but it isn't far off. Go to Madrid and mention the word Dani Alves and the word 'tramposo' (cheat) will only be preceded by 'Hijo de la gran puta,' likewise Di Maria in Barcelona, or Diego Capel anywhere.

Are you actualy going to tell me that Madrid and Barca are against diving/cheating vehemently?

As much as i don't like Neville, he does give a very valid & factual opinion at times.
He's growing on me.

Cantona's Collars

I hope he's in the studio with Bitter Summerbee for the Manchester Derby,there'll be fireworks with Summerbee's entrenched,narrow minded views and Nevilles straight talking.

kryogen

If thats true it will be a serious test of Nevilles ability not to punch an old man in the face anyway

Neil3030

kryogen wrote: »

If thats true it will be a serious test of Nevilles ability not to punch an old man in the face anyway

Pre-season friendly for working with Dunphy.

carlop

kryogen wrote: »

Are you actualy going to tell me that Madrid and Barca are against diving/cheating vehemently?

No, I'm saying if you ask a supporter of either team they will say that Alves, Di Maria and a couple of others are cheats because they dive.

I don't think any club is against diving when it works in their favour.

kryogen

Neil3030 wrote: »

Pre-season friendly for working with Dunphy.

??

I assume this is a joke but I would absolutely love to see Nevilles head explode sitting in between Eamo and Gilesy!

He definitely wouldnt make it through that without killing someone

Warper

Gary Neville has proved to be a good analyst who knows what hes talking about. Like every analyst they make mistakes, such as him blaming the "foreigners" for all the diving and the refusal to call players who dive, cheats. Diving is a massive part of the game now but its still cheating no matter where its at. Interesting to see how some people who rant and rave about the likes of Barca or Real cheating and yet suddenly cant say it when there own team has a habit of it. I await the posts this Sat night when El Clasico is on for the usual badness.

Last night, Rosicky cheated, and i'm an Arsenal fan.
I think Nial Quinn had a good piont, a few restrospective red cards will definately help.

Warper

RVP 11 wrote: »

Last night, Rosicky cheated, and i'm an Arsenal fan.
I think Nial Quinn had a good piont, a few restrospective red cards will definately help.

Agreed its the only thing that can sort it out. Why soccer hasnt moved on is mind-boggling. Look at most other sports where if someone is caught cheating on camera, then they can be reprimanded for it irrespective if an official spotted it. This whole thing it was not in the referee's report is bullsh1t. Players found to have dived like Ashley Young at the weekend need to be suspended and fined, otherwise it will only get worse and more referreeing decisions will go the way of the cheats.

Likewise if someone was booked for diving by mistake, obv. the card should be rescinded. By suspending players for diving may not eradicate the problem, it can only help in the long-run. Obv. a player diving in a big match like a CL Final would happily take a 3 game ban if it meant a peno for their side but thats another days argument. 3 game ban for first offense in a season and 6 for the second offense. The FA should have a panel set up who vote on whether they think it was a dive or not to avoid any confusion, likewise UEFA etc.. Something needs to be done rapidly though.

Marco85

kryogen wrote: »

Neil3030 wrote: »

Pre-season friendly for working with Dunphy.

??




I assume this is a joke but I would absolutely love to see Nevilles head explode sitting in between Eamo and Gilesy!









He definitely wouldnt make it through that without killin
g someone

was in the indo last week that rte approached him to be pundit for the euros but sky blocked it.

prettyboy81

As a LFC fan & it shouldn't matter what club you support, Mr. Neville has brought a freshness to SKY coverage along with top class analysis!

PhlegmyMoses

The FA do not rescind yellow cards. So if you are booked for diving, they will have to mete out 3 game punishments to players incorrectly carded as well.

Retroactively banning players would cause havoc as there is too much subjectivity involved. No way the FA will start that up unless it is incredibly obvious.

As Martin Tyler said last night, the people who watch the games on tv or in the stadiums will decide, and it should be their decision if they want to see it, and if they don't retro-bans is the only solution.
Wage fines wouldn't do anything, look at Ballowelli

PhlegmyMoses

RVP 11 wrote: »

As Martin Tyler said last night, the people who watch the games on tv or in the stadiums will decide, and it should be their decision if they want to see it, and if they don't retro-bans is the only solution.
Wage fines wouldn't do anything, look at Ballowelli

The people in the stands do not understand the logistics or realities of what they are asking for. That is a trite comment from Tyler. The people in the stands would ruin football if the lunatics were allowed to run the asylum.

PhlegmyMoses

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The people in the stands do not understand the logistics or realities of what they are asking for. That is a trite comment from Tyler. The people in the stands would ruin football if the lunatics were allowed to run the asylum.

What are you talking about?
We are talking about cheating/diving here, not asking Jimmy baldy bollix to setup the FA guidelines.
Cheating is an offence, it's refs who don't have the balls to action it LIVE because of pressure from the stands (team supporters booing etc)

PhlegmyMoses

RVP 11 wrote: »

What are you talking about?
We are talking about cheating/diving here, not asking Jimmy baldy bollix to setup the FA guidelines.
Cheating is an offence, it's refs who don't have the balls to action it LIVE because of pressure from the stands (team supporters booing etc)

And yet they action everything else, like giving pens, sending players off ruling out goals.

This is not a case of being about refs not having the balls to do their job. It's the fact that it's very hard to prove diving in most cases. As I said previously, it's easy to prove that Carroll dived a few weeks ago or Gilardino that time for Milan, as there was no contact at all but there will be plenty of people feeling very hard done by if the FA brought this in.

Neville thinks that almost all of the incidents looked at last night were pens but players reacted to them to ensure that they got the pen. For the Samba incident with Berba, Berbatov was surely impeding him by holding his shirt but Samba went down like a tonne of bricks in an unnatural way. Should we give him a 3 game ban?

Where do you draw the line? This is why I'm talking about practicalities and the realities of actually implementing what "the people" want? Tyler's comment was trite. There is a reason why this is so hard to implement.

Could somebody who wants this brought in maybe offer some sort of guideline as to what exactly they would be looking for? It's all very outragey at the moment.

It's very hard to prove, yet we see the evidence within seconds.
It's very hard to prove allright if you dismiss Video Technology.

PhlegmyMoses

You see an incident in seconds yet I may disagree with you. Discussions on whether a player dived or not are usually the most divisive topics in football. This may work for absolutely obvious examples but I'd be worried about the 50-50s, of which there are many more.

I understand that, but a few retro-red cards will reduce the amount and will put doubt in players minds about going down easy, thats' all we need.
I think in retrospect, 50/50's won't be judged by knee-jerk decisions, unlike some penalties and cards by referees instantly.

PhlegmyMoses

RVP 11 wrote: »

I understand that, but a few retro-red cards will reduce the amount and will put doubt in players minds about going down easy, thats' all we need.
I think in retrospect, 50/50's won't be judged by knee-jerk decisions, unlike some penalties and cards by referees instantly.

Who decides what is 50-50? For example, Ashley Young clearly over-exaggerated the contact at the weekend but there was clearly contact. Should he be banned? Again, what about Samba who over-emphasized his fall when Berba tugged his shirt? He was clearly fouled but also clearly dived, exaggerated, whatever. This is my point. It's very hard to legislate for and will have practical problems that Neville alludes to in his analysis. Basically, everyone should be careful what they wish for.

RasTa

Didn't some Arsenal player get a retrospective red for a dive awhile back? Haven't seen much change if so

Fuhrer

RasTa wrote: »

Didn't some Arsenal player get a retrospective red for a dive awhile back? Haven't seen much change if so

Eduardo did, then they just cancelled it for some reason.

Well one thing would be to look at the effort made to stay on your feet, flailing arms is a dead give away.
You know if a decision isn't quite clear cut, then they could just have no action at all, but most of the time it's quite obvious when someone has no intention of chasing after the ball when they see they won't get there.
I'm not talking about every situation here, but the ones that are so blatant, need actioning, otherwise the game will be forever marred with cheating.

DM_7

Neville was right as usual.

for a starts diving is only a yellow card offence so you can't just ban a player.

yellow cards can't be appealed so if a ref decides you dive then thats it.

if you open it up to retrospective action you have to prove simulation. How do you prove that? A player can claim whatever contact there is (minimal or otherwise) made him fall. You can't prove him wrong.

a player can also say he just slipped, fell to the ground due to a brain fart but wasn't actually trying to pretend he was fouled.

It would be a nightmare to implement.

I really like Neville. He is straight up and just says, get on with it, stop moaning about everything.

du Maurier

He sounds like Keith Lemon. One of the myriad of reasons I'd switch over.

bucketybuck

RVP 11 wrote: »

As Martin Tyler said last night, the people who watch the games on tv or in the stadiums will decide, and it should be their decision if they want to see it, and if they don't retro-bans is the only solution.
Wage fines wouldn't do anything, look at Ballowelli

The people in the stadiums would be the first to cry bloody murder if one of "their" team were given a three match ban for a borderline decision they didn't agree with.

Rarely will a dive be clear cut. How many times was Ronaldo called a diver, when the fact was that at the speed he ran it didn't actually take massive contact to spin his centre of balance and check his run. If the general public had their way he would have been banned every ten minutes, and driven out of England even sooner.

Don't look to the general public for rational decision making, they are not equipped for it.

Mitch Connor

bucketybuck wrote: »

The people in the stadiums would be the first to cry bloody murder if one of "their" team were given a three match ban for a borderline decision they didn't agree with.

Rarely will a dive be clear cut. How many times was Ronaldo called a diver, when the fact was that at the speed he ran it didn't actually take massive contact to spin his centre of balance and check his run. If the general public had their way he would have been banned every ten minutes, and driven out of England even sooner.

Don't look to the general public for rational decision making, they are not equipped for it.

a person can be smart, people are stupid.

I like Neville as an analyst, but as a commentator he's pretty annoying, talks too much for a co-commentator imo.

PhlegmyMoses

I think he gets quite nervous so just talks a lot. His accent is grating as well. I'd keep him in the studio where he does great work.

Mitch Connor

rarnes1 wrote: »

I like Neville as an analyst, but as a commentator he's pretty annoying, talks too much for a co-commentator imo.

I think he just needs more experience in the role - he is new to it, hasn't done it much, so is likely unsure of when to talk and how long to talk for. He has proven himself, imo, as an excellent analyst - i'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the co-commentating duties for the time being.

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

The people in the stadiums would be the first to cry bloody murder if one of "their" team were given a three match ban for a borderline decision they didn't agree with.

Rarely will a dive be clear cut. How many times was Ronaldo called a diver, when the fact was that at the speed he ran it didn't actually take massive contact to spin his centre of balance and check his run. If the general public had their way he would have been banned every ten minutes, and driven out of England even sooner.

Don't look to the general public for rational decision making, they are not equipped for it.

Rarely are they clear cut when people use the excuse of "there was contact" even if the player going down makes the contact by extending his leg or leaving his leg behind him as he pretends to run on past.
We can all see it's cheating even if the letter of the law deems it a foul based on any contact.
The contact is the MO of the cheater, should we allow it to continue because it happens even though it's only happening through deceit?

willmunny1990

Gary Neville is a great analyst and a breath of fresh air on Sky imo.

His commentary during matches isn't the best at the moment but i think he will get better at commentating as he gains more experience.

dfx-

Perhaps a decent analyst, but his co-commentary bias for the Benfica-Chelsea 1st leg was terrible.

RiseToTheTop

In studio for Madrid-Bayern. Hopefully he will be OK because of no English sides.

adox

I really don't get why people are up in arms when he biased towards English teams in Europe.

kingshankly

Unfortunately I can't stop agreeing with everything Neville says he is an outstanding analysts

MD1990

Neville having orgasm live on air

kryogen

Neville blowing his load was hilarious tonight!