Your Profit per acre.

galway 4 sam

Well how profitable is farming with all this talk that farming is going well at the moment. Is the profit difference between drystock and dairy that big?
What kinda profits can you produce. On my farm 50 acres - (part time) average stocking rate - sheep and beef. I reckon our profit is approx €200 per acre. How do ye guys fair out. This includes all our grants, sfp etc.

reilig

galway 4 sam wrote: »

Well how profitable is farming with all this talk that farming is going well at the moment. Is the profit difference between drystock and dairy that big?
What kinda profits can you produce. On my farm 50 acres - (part time) average stocking rate - sheep and beef. I reckon our profit is approx €200 per acre. How do ye guys fair out. This includes all our grants, sfp etc.

Asking a farmer how much money he/she made is like asking a woman her age. You'll never get a straight answer.

Mine was €0 last year. In fact i spent some money from my OFJ. I'm in the process of investing for the future - the day when i can give up my job and farm full time. Facilities, reclaimation, drainage, machinery etc. are what i tend to spend money on.

Why only recon profit? Do you not know how much your accountant made the return to revenue for? You could just divide it by the number of acres to get profit per acre!!

bob charles

does it include a opportunity cost on the land or is it leased? Struggling away here either if its taking on a farm basis or acre basis we are still only struggling.



A good poker playing friend always said

The player who said he is up money, is only breaking even.
Whoever says they are breaking even are losing big time.
And the player who says "its a hard game to make money at" is the guy that is up

larthehar

profit is a dangerous word to introduce in farming... is a farmer not on-call 24-7, working approx 70hrs a week every week or partime farmers every min they have to spare?? One of the things I see that is greatly over looked by farmers is labour cost, nobody every really factors in their time. I work a fulltime job and farm on the side, and i also plough every penny i receive from the farm back into the farm, so effectively i'm making a huge loss if i factor in the 20hrs a week i work at it.. @€;10/hr for 52 wks of the year that's nearly 10.5k!!! and on a sh*t wage at that!!
Very interesting topic bob charles!!
thoughts/feelings/comments??!!

Muckit

As a wise man once said....

'It's very hard to beat the weeks wage' Muckit 2012

What size farm would you want to be given for free for you to make the equivalent income?

Farmer Pudsey

larthehar wrote: »

profit is a dangerous word to introduce in farming... is a farmer not on-call 24-7, working approx 70hrs a week every week or partime farmers every min they have to spare?? One of the things I see that is greatly over looked by farmers is labour cost, nobody every really factors in their time. I work a fulltime job and farm on the side, and i also plough every penny i receive from the farm back into the farm, so effectively i'm making a huge loss if i factor in the 20hrs a week i work at it.. @€;10/hr for 52 wks of the year that's nearly 10.5k!!! and on a sh*t wage at that!!
Very interesting topic bob charles!!
thoughts/feelings/comments??!!

However if you can remove 10,000 euro tax free from the farm every year as a PAYE earner at high rate of tax this equates to over 20,000 taxable. So for a 20 hour week it equates to 19.20 an hour not bad. It is all in what way you look at it is the glass half full or half empty. there are certain benfits of being farming if you are a PAYE earner and not a lot of part time farmers see that. You are allowed to write off 2/3 of your car deprecation, 2/3 of your phone,electricity bills and there are some other sundry reciepts that are deductable dog& cat food the bag of cement to put in the new patio or kerbing the car trailer, some small tools the flashlamp herself has in the car need I go on

Tipp Man

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

However if you can remove 10,000 euro tax free from the farm every year as a PAYE earner at high rate of tax this equates to over 20,000 taxable. So for a 20 hour week it equates to 19.20 an hour not bad.

Can you explain how a PAYE worker can remove 10k from farm income tax free? I'm confused by that

Edit: Having read it again are you talking about putting costs such as 75%car etc down to farm as being the 10k or are you talking about 10k in cash?

rancher

galway 4 sam wrote: »

Well how profitable is farming with all this talk that farming is going well at the moment. Is the profit difference between drystock and dairy that big?
What kinda profits can you produce. On my farm 50 acres - (part time) average stocking rate - sheep and beef. I reckon our profit is approx €200 per acre. How do ye guys fair out. This includes all our grants, sfp etc.

With prices as they are now you'd want to be making at least 200 per acre PLUS subsidies, I buy the farmers handbook every year which gives income projection for each enterprise, regarding comparisons, the handbook details gross margins from 500 euros per hectare on an average suckler farm, right up to a gross margin of 1800 euros per hectare on an average liquid milk farm. The book also has loads of information on tax, inheritance, grants and subsidies.

Farmer Pudsey

Tipp Man wrote: »

Can you explain how a PAYE worker can remove 10k from farm income tax free? I'm confused by that

Edit: Having read it again are you talking about putting costs such as 75%car etc down to farm as being the 10k or are you talking about 10k in cash?

I am talking about allowable expenses if you are writing off car fuel, car dep maintenance at 2/3 etc.
On the farming handbook they are talking about margin not profit a margin of 300 euro/acre might give no profit while a margin og 50 euro/acre might leave a profit. Havinfg said that buying one now and again can give you ideas and different outlook on things and it is tax deductable

sh1tstirrer

bob charles wrote: »

does it include a opportunity cost on the land or is it leased? Struggling away here either if its taking on a farm basis or acre basis we are still only struggling.



A good poker playing friend always said

The player who said he is up money, is only breaking even.
Whoever says they are breaking even are losing big time.
And the player who says "its a hard game to make money at" is the guy that is up

Pity the tax man doesn't look on opportunity as being a cost.

Tipp Man

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I am talking about allowable expenses if you are writing off car fuel, car dep maintenance at 2/3 etc.
On the farming handbook they are talking about margin not profit a margin of 300 euro/acre might give no profit while a margin og 50 euro/acre might leave a profit. Havinfg said that buying one now and again can give you ideas and different outlook on things and it is tax deductable

ah ok

I thought initially you were talking about taking 10k out tax free

galway 4 sam

rancher....... I seriously question the likelyhood of making €200 an acre profit without grants. Not Possible on a drystock farm in the west!

stanflt

making no profit-just enjoying life:)

PMU

stanflt wrote: »

making no profit-just enjoying life:)

what! with all them good cows and the good grass the are on.

rancher

galway 4 sam wrote: »

rancher....... I seriously question the likelyhood of making €200 an acre profit without grants. Not Possible on a drystock farm in the west!

Four ewes/acre selling seven lambs grossing seven hundred euros including wool, now you tell me the costs, probably wouldn't be as easy with sucklers

Username John

rancher wrote: »

Four ewes/acre selling seven lambs grossing seven hundred euros including wool, now you tell me the costs, probably wouldn't be as easy with sucklers

That's a high enough stocking rate, you would need good young grass to have enough for them I'd imagine?

Are your fertiliser costs high on that system rancher?

rancher

Username John wrote: »

That's a high enough stocking rate, you would need good young grass to have enough for them I'd imagine?

Are your fertiliser costs high on that system rancher?

Haven't reseeded since early 1990s but the sheep seem to be improving the pasture every year, on fertiliser I put 50kg pasture sward/acre in the spring and 50 kg CAN in august, I don't make silage, so all the land is available to them this time of the year. In fact the last few years I found it nearly impossible to control grass end april/may so this year I put out no spring application so we'll see how it goes, as I said land seems to be getting more fertile all the time

Farmer Pudsey

rancher wrote: »

Four ewes/acre selling seven lambs grossing seven hundred euros including wool, now you tell me the costs, probably wouldn't be as easy with sucklers

They are good figures rancher selling 1.75lambs/ewe are you buying replacement ewe's. If you do not buy replacements you must be rearing nearly 2lambs/ewe Are they out all winter or have you a shed and if you do when do you house.

Assuming your net replacement cost is about 14 euro/ewe, fertlizer10 euro/ewe if you have a shed as you cannot make silage you are buying your forage lets put it down at 18/ewe for it and concentrates and 6euro/ewe creep for lambs and 12 euro for veteninary,scanning transport and shearing etc This gives you a cost of 54 euro/ewe 0r 216 per acre now I could be a good bit out but you must have a margin of at least 350/acre and single payment your single payment might not be very high as you were in sheep in the reference years however it would still add about 112euro/acre and disadvantaged area about another 30/acre and reps???

Rancher you are on the right side of 500 euro/acre margin if not profit???

rancher

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

They are good figures rancher selling 1.75lambs/ewe are you buying replacement ewe's. If you do not buy replacements you must be rearing nearly 2lambs/ewe Are they out all winter or have you a shed and if you do when do you house.

Assuming your net replacement cost is about 14 euro/ewe, fertlizer10 euro/ewe if you have a shed as you cannot make silage you are buying your forage lets put it down at 18/ewe for it and concentrates and 6euro/ewe creep for lambs and 12 euro for veteninary,scanning transport and shearing etc This gives you a cost of 54 euro/ewe 0r 216 per acre now I could be a good bit out but you must have a margin of at least 350/acre and single payment your single payment might not be very high as you were in sheep in the reference years however it would still add about 112euro/acre and disadvantaged area aboutanother 30/acre and reps???

Rancher you are on the right side of 500 euro/acre margin if not profit???

Well done, costs are 59 euros per ewe, ewes in 6-8 weeks on straw and meal before lambing and strip grazed on grass in mid pregnancy. breed my own replacments and the mature ewes are doing 1.9 at the moment scanning over 2. Not in reps but was suckling to beef during the reference years so you're well on the ball

Farmer Pudsey

rancher wrote: »

Well done, costs are 59 euros per ewe, ewes in 6-8 weeks on straw and meal before lambing and strip grazed on grass in mid pregnancy. breed my own replacments and the mature ewes are doing 1.9 at the moment scanning over 2. Not in reps but was suckling to beef during the reference years so you're well on the ball

Not bad for an ould fella that ever only had about 20 sheep

fodda

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

They are good figures rancher selling 1.75lambs/ewe are you buying replacement ewe's. If you do not buy replacements you must be rearing nearly 2lambs/ewe Are they out all winter or have you a shed and if you do when do you house.

Assuming your net replacement cost is about 14 euro/ewe, fertlizer10 euro/ewe if you have a shed as you cannot make silage you are buying your forage lets put it down at 18/ewe for it and concentrates and 6euro/ewe creep for lambs and 12 euro for veteninary,scanning transport and shearing etc This gives you a cost of 54 euro/ewe 0r 216 per acre now I could be a good bit out but you must have a margin of at least 350/acre and single payment your single payment might not be very high as you were in sheep in the reference years however it would still add about 112euro/acre and disadvantaged area about another 30/acre and reps???

Rancher you are on the right side of 500 euro/acre margin if not profit???

You havent taken in to account capital expenditure of tools, equipment, fencing and labour, sheds, etc.

1chippy

Profit:
i'll tell you next year. ive taken a small farm and going to stock, finance and run it seperate to home farm. it will be good to see if i can make it work on the short term, probably more likely over a longerspan.

rancher

fodda wrote: »

You havent taken in to account capital expenditure of tools, equipment, fencing and labour, sheds, etc.

Hard to compare fixed costs,I'm coming near retiring so all the equipment is well depreciated or written off, whereas an active young farmer could be putting up 2 or300/acre in fixed costs

Farmer Pudsey

fodda wrote: »

You havent taken in to account capital expenditure of tools, equipment, fencing and labour, sheds, etc.

No I have not remember what I put at the end of it

Rancher you are on the right side of 500 euro/acre margin if not profit???

Capital costs vary if you are a part time farmer it may not pay you to show a big profit to the tax man ( you be [EMAIL="F@@king"]F@@king[/EMAIL] nuts) especially if you were approching the high tax rate which with USC is the equivlent of over 50% better to reinvest in the farm and build wealth as we have learned over the years there is no point in putting it in pension funds either. Taking money out efficiently is the name of the game neither do I hold with driving around in a 4WD if it is not needed or have a 30,000 euro tractor in the yard. However there is no need either in you or the better half to be driving around in 1998 corrolla's if you see what I mean.

rancher

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

No I have not remember what I put at the end of it

Rancher you are on the right side of 500 euro/acre margin if not profit???

Capital costs vary if you are a part time farmer it may not pay you to show a big profit to the tax man ( you be F@@king nuts) especially if you were approching the high tax rate which with USC is the equivlent of over 50% better to reinvest in the farm and build wealth as we have learned over the years there is no point in putting it in pension funds either. Taking money out efficiently is the name of the game neither do I hold with driving around in a 4WD if it is not needed or have a 30,000 euro tractor in the yard. However there is no need either in you or the better half to be driving around in 1998 corrolla's if you see what I mean.

yeah... was thinking of treating myself before the end of the year....anyone want a 98 corolla

stanflt

think of the poor dairy farmers with total costs of 1473euro an acre:eek:

Farmer Pudsey

stanflt wrote: »

think of the poor dairy farmers with total costs of 1473euro an acre:eek:

It would be grand if you were turning over 2946 per acre you can only cost anything if you know the amount produced /per acre some people run gold plated systems have to have a 2 or 3 year old 4WD, the same with one of the tractors and maybe a good second one as well, run a beef system that is being subsidised by the milk a 10 ft kuhn Mower Conditioner that is really only used as a topper need I go on

rancher

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It would be grand if you were turning over 2946 per acre you can only cost anything if you know the amount produced /per acre some people run gold plated systems have to have a 2 or 3 year old 4WD, the same with one of the tractors and maybe a good second one as well, run a beef system that is being subsidised by the milk a 10 ft kuhn Mower Conditioner that is really only used as a topper need I go on

Settle down now Pudsey, they're coming into the real world in 2015, and when the market is allowed to work you'll find that high prices always cure high prices

Farmer Pudsey

rancher wrote: »

Settle down now Pudsey, they're coming into the real world in 2015, and when the market is allowed to work you'll find that high prices always cure high prices

Sorry Rancher got abit carried away there but when someone complains about there high costs I fely a boy a little rant. However even at that if you were produceing 2000 gallons/cow at one cow to the acre the figures would stack up you have a turnover of 2970 euro/acre or a stocking rate of 1.25 and the cows doing 1600 gallons and there is a couple of guys out there doing that

pakalasa

rancher wrote: »

Haven't reseeded since early 1990s but the sheep seem to be improving the pasture every year....

Do you need to reseed with sheep? Any land I know where sheep graze, the grass always looks top notch.

rancher

pakalasa wrote: »

Do you need to reseed with sheep? Any land I know where sheep graze, the grass always looks top notch.

sheep keep it right alright, grows really thick, which makes it hard to get clover growing, too much competition