Crime & punishment

Sunnyisland

With all the kill em and flog em throw away the key brigade here in AH,I was wondering what opinions would the broder posters here recommend for punishments in dealing with crime,drug dealing,tax evasion,scamming,corruption or do they think as imo overall the present situation is working albeit with some mistakes and with room for improvements.



As a note for years In the north there was paramilitary punishment beatings, Very severe ones with legs,arms,elbows,toes,hands all smashed with Iron bars or sometimes in republican areas with hurley's,& also not forgetting kneecapping.There was also quite a few people shot dead for anti social behaviour,In fact there was one young lad shot dead in donegal last month.The point being this has never stopped drug dealing or people stealing cars or kept crime down in any shape or form.All it has done is turn young people who have serious problems into older people with serious problems and bad ass attitudes with even wider problems for all around them.

biko

Death should be the only punishment.
That'll learn 'em.

prinz

realies wrote: »

.. or do they think as imo overall the present situation is working albeit with some mistakes and with room for improvements..

When you have people with 100+ convictions coming before the courts yet again, I think you can say there is room for improvement in there somewhere.

MrStuffins

Kill 2 birds with one stone!

Bird 1: Make them do a "Battle Royale". Stick them all on an island and have them fight to the dead for our amusement!

Bird 2: RTE will actually have something worth watching for once!

MrStuffins

prinz wrote: »

When you have people with 100+ convictions coming before the courts yet again, I think you can say there is room for improvement in there somewhere.

Room for improvement indeed!

That guy needs to work on his hiding skills! Who the f*ck gets caught more than 100 times? Amateur!!

davet82

love and kisses, that'll fix 'em

prinz

MrStuffins wrote: »

Room for improvement indeed!
That guy needs to work on his hiding skills! Who the f*ck gets caught more than 100 times? Amateur!!

http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/serial-thief-tried-to-snatch-diners-bag-2634270.html

She.

Garda Gallagher said the defendant had 109 previous convictions, 94 of which were for theft and attempted theft

Sunnyisland

prinz wrote: »

When you have people with 100+ convictions coming before the courts yet again, I think you can say there is room for improvement in there somewhere.

Well going by some of your posts on the subject what do you suggest.

benway

Red flag to a bull territory here. This is going to get very silly, very quickly.

MrStuffins

prinz wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/serial-thief-tried-to-snatch-diners-bag-2634270.html

She.

Wow............. I was not expecting to read that this scumbag was a 60 year old woman!

foxyboxer

Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!

PickledLime

I've read up on this crazy concept called 'jail'.

MrStuffins

PickledLime wrote: »

I've read up on this crazy concept called 'jail'.

Yeah, it has not only been shown to work as a complete deterent for all these years, but also has been shown to completely rehabilitate everyone who enters!

Bravo!

prinz

I suspect the thread title should be amended to "Crime & Self improvement".

Sunnyisland

MrStuffins wrote: »

Yeah, it has not only been shown to work as a complete deterent for all these years, but also has been shown to completely rehabilitate everyone who enters!

Bravo!

So whats your answer ?

Dravokivich

MrStuffins wrote: »

Yeah, it has not only been shown to work as a complete deterent for all these years, but also has been shown to completely rehabilitate everyone who enters!

Bravo!

Was the idea to rehabilitate when Jails were first put together?

It should be seen as a punishment and I'm guessing it would of been expected that the punishment itself should act as a deterrent.

There's a fundemental problem though with punishment and rehabilitation. You are not going to change someone who doesn't give a shíte. Such as those referenced earlier who'd have loads of prior charges against them. I don't think there is a way to counter act that other than remove them from soceity.

John Doe1

are you on about andrew allan?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0211/1224311624223.html

I think the only way to affect a change in a criminal is thorugh putting them in a cage in the middle of the city and have people shout abuse at them:)

MrStuffins

realies wrote: »

So whats your answer ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIuRjqcpuGQ

Sunnyisland

Dravokivich wrote: »

Was the idea to rehabilitate when Jails were first put together?

It should be seen as a punishment and I'm guessing it would of been expected that the punishment itself should act as a deterrent.

There's a fundemental problem though with punishment and rehabilitation. You are not going to change someone who doesn't give a shíte. Such as those referenced earlier who'd have loads of prior charges against them. I don't think there is a way to counter act that other than remove them from soceity.

When you say remove them,do you mean kill them or lock them up for a very long time.

Dravokivich

realies wrote: »

When you say remove them,do you mean kill them or lock them up for a very long time.

Lock'em up.

Don't really see the piont in killing'em. Fúckers can't learn anything being dead. :pac:

benway

Dravokivich wrote: »

Was the idea to rehabilitate when Jails were first put together?

From when they were first implemented on a systematic basis, 300 years ago, yes it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

Dravokivich wrote: »

You are not going to change someone who doesn't give a shíte.

You're saying this from extensive experience of dealing with prisoners, is it?

I do agree that rehabilitation is difficult, but the reason for that is that it's the social conditions outside the prison that drive crime, not that "some people are just evil" or whatever nonsense you want to trot out. With the best intentions, people dropped back into the same conditions more often than not end up making the same mistakes.

prinz

benway wrote: »

...it's the social conditions outside the prison that drive crime....

Here we go. Everyone to blame but the criminal.

benway

prinz wrote: »

Here we go. Everyone to blame but the criminal.

I have a real-life experience as my basis for thinking what I think.

What's yours? Newspapers? Have you actually had any dealings with crime and criminals?

prinz

benway wrote: »

I have a real-life experience as my basis for thinking what I think. What's yours? Newspapers? Have you actually had any dealings with crime and criminals?

I have been a victim of crime. My family members have been victims of crime. None of us forced the criminals to subject us to what they did. That was solely the responsibility of the criminals in question...but you fire ahead and tell the victims of rapes, and assaults, and theft, and criminal damage that they themselves are to blame for the crimes visited upon them.

token101

MrStuffins wrote: »

Wow............. I was not expecting to read that this scumbag was a 60 year old woman!

Why? Scum grow up to be..... scum. They rarely change.

benway

prinz wrote: »

I have been a victim of crime.

So have I. It happens.

prinz wrote: »

My family members have been victims of crime. None of us forced the criminals to subject us to what they did. That was solely the responsibility of the criminals in question...but you fire ahead and tell the victims of rapes, and assaults, and theft, and criminal damage that they themselves are to blame for the crimes visited upon them.

Who's saying that the criminals aren't responsible? And who's saying that recognising that the problem is more complex than just "some people are bad" means you're "blaming the victims"? Since when did this become a zero sum game?

And what do you propose as a solution?

MrStuffins

benway wrote: »

I do agree that rehabilitation is difficult, but the reason for that is that it's the social conditions outside the prison that drive crime, not that "some people are just evil" or whatever nonsense you want to trot out. With the best intentions, people dropped back into the same conditions more often than not end up making the same mistakes.

Lol!

Lad, it's not all about social conditions. I had a pretty harsh upbringing, we were pretty poor, a lot of the lads I went to primary school with are now either in prison, on drugs or dead!

Now, while what these guys all have in common is their "social conditions", that's no excuse. Myself as well as a lot of the other lads I went to school with have never been in trouble in any way, shape or form with the police!

While social conditions have an input, they are in no way to blame for people commiting crimes! I grew up very close to one of those scumbags who were convicted of killing that poor Polish lad on the way to work. But I didn't end up like him despite coming from the same social rung as him!

prinz

benway wrote: »

Who's saying that the criminals aren't responsible?

You are, everytime you lay the blame for crime primarily on "society" rather than the criminal. You are offloading responsibility from the criminal onto others... including the victims.

One of the men in custody is a 54-year-old career criminal from Ballymun, but with connections in Clondalkin, who is regarded as one of Ireland's top armed robbers.He was detained with an associate, also a known armed robber from Ballymun.

http://www.herald.ie/news/gardai-hunt-dublin-gang-in-tiger-raid-1641385.html

...and then you have oscar-winner Glen Hansard also from Ballymun.... One made the wrong decisions, one made the right ones.

MrStuffins

token101 wrote: »

Why? Scum grow up to be..... scum. They rarely change.

Yeah, of course! But when Prinz mentioned someone with 100+ convictions I pictured a scummy lad with a pathetic bum-fluff moustache and a cap at a 45 degree angle.

When he said it was a "she", I pictured that guy's pregnant, toothless girlfriend!

slavetothegrind

realistically there will never be a proper approach to reducing criminality because there are no votes in it and no money for it.

The poor and socially deprived will continue in their cycle with a lucky few breaking out and doing well for themselves in life.

Nobody at a level to influence change cares.

The best we can hope for is a degree of protection from the criminals via consequence of action.

We do not have this at the moment.

We probably will not have this for the forseeable as there is no money available.

things will get worse.

cheery aren't i.........:(

FGR

The original point of jails was to deter and punish those who commit crime.

The other, more prominent point; was that jail kept those criminals from being able to harm anyone else.

The second point doesn't exist anymore given that we have a revolving door system.

token101

benway wrote: »

I have a real-life experience as my basis for thinking what I think.

What's yours? Newspapers? Have you actually had any dealings with crime and criminals?

Real life experience? Wouldn't any victim of crime have experience of that? What makes you think your opinion is more valid than anyone elses?

benway wrote: »

So have I. It happens.

Who's saying that the criminals aren't responsible? And who's saying that recognising that the problem is more complex than just "some people are bad" means you're "blaming the victims"? Since when did this become a zero sum game?

And what do you propose as a solution?

So we just throw our hands up and say 'It happens'? My solution is harsher penalties on a sliding scale. If you have a few convictions and you a few years without offending, you get a clean start. But you consistently offend, and you can die in solitary confinement.

That social deprivation sh*t doesn't wash in Ireland. We have free education, free healthcare, and a generous SW system. If you can't make a decent fist of life on that and still feel you need to resort to crime, you're scum. And scum rarely change. And excusing them, or recognising broader issues or whatever the latest euphemism is, doesn't help.

superstoner90

Bring back the burning like they done with the witches.

benway

MrStuffins wrote: »

Myself as well as a lot of the other lads I went to school with have never been in trouble in any way, shape or form with the police!

Same as, a lot of lads from my school have been in serious trouble, couple are dead.

There's a bunch of lads who hang around together, who were always in trouble at school and who are now all in and out of jail, on drugs, or dead. And when they get out of jail, they go back to hanging out with the same lads, and getting up to the same old tricks.

That's what I mean by social conditions - if, say, your peer group are all on smack, and they're the only people waiting for you when you get out, when you start hanging around with them again likelihood is you'll start back on the smack and back robbing to feed the habit.

Let's be clear, poverty in itself isn't a cause of crime.

Tipp Man

Isn't it about time that we had a serious debate regarding implementing the death penalty in this country?

Those 3 scummers that kicked the polish guy to death deserve nothing short of the death penalty imo.

When people are committing crimes of such a serious nature and clearly don't give a fcuk about the consequences of their actions then we need to up the consequences and not be afraid to follow through with them

benway

Tipp Man wrote: »

Isn't it about time that we had a serious debate regarding implementing the death penalty in this country?

How do you stop innocent people from being executed? [/debate]

Tipp Man

benway wrote: »

How do you stop innocent people from being executed? [/debate]

Are you trying to say those 3 scummers were innocent people??

MrStuffins

benway wrote: »

Same as, a lot of lads from my school have been in serious trouble, couple are dead.

There's a bunch of lads who hang around together, who were always in trouble at school and who are now all in and out of jail, on drugs, or dead. And when they get out of jail, they go back to hanging out with the same lads, and getting up to the same old tricks.

That's what I mean by social conditions - if, say, your peer group are all on smack, and they're the only people waiting for you when you get out, when you start hanging around with them again likelihood is you'll start back on the smack and back robbing to feed the habit.

Let's be clear, poverty in itself isn't a cause of crime.

But hold on here, my social group when growing up all smoked cigarettes, as young kids will. They they were smoking hash. Friends then moved onto harder drugs, some onto heroin.

But I didn't! You know why? Because I am ultimately responsible for my decisions. And no matter how many old "friends" I might end up out for a few drinks with who decide to take out a bag of cocaine and each get off their faces, this has no baring on my decisions! I'm not gonna do it just because everybody else does.

it all comes down to each person being responsible for their own decisions. It's partial apologists like yourself who had those little thieving scumbags who were looting and setting fire to houses while babies slept in them saying "Oh, i'm only doing it because the government don't care about us".

No, you're doing it because you're a little scummer and you want a HDTV for your bedroom!

benway

I am saying, as a matter of absolute certainty, that if capital punishment was brought back, innocent people would be killed by the state. Miscarriages of justice happen all the time - if someone's been hung, the mistake can't be rectified.

How do you propose to stop that from happening?

Tipp Man

benway wrote: »

I am saying, as a matter of absolute certainty, that if capital punishment was brought back, innocent people would be killed by the state. Miscarriages of justice happen all the time - if someone's been hung, the mistake can't be rectified.

How do you propose to stop that from happening?

How many innocent people would be killed?

Innocent people are getting killed left right and centre at the moment because of scumbags similar to those 3.

token101

benway wrote: »

I am saying, as a matter of absolute certainty, that if capital punishment was brought back, innocent people would be killed by the state. Miscarriages of justice happen all the time - if someone's been hung, the mistake can't be rectified.

How do you propose to stop that from happening?

Capital punishment might be a step too far. But life without parole is suitable for a lot of people in this state. Like the Dundons, the scum who killed those Polish lads with a screwdriver and the scum who killed the Polish lad 'for a buzz'. Whilst I'd personally love to see them executed, I don't think it would be the right thing to do. But I do feel that public safety is paramount, and they should be confined to cell for the rest of their natural lives. And if they can't behave in prison. Well they can spend their days in solitary confinement.

Tipp Man

token101 wrote: »

Capital punishment might be a step too far. But life without parole is suitable for a lot of people in this state. Like the Dundons, the scum who killed those Polish lads with a screwdriver and the scum who killed the Polish lad 'for a buzz'. Whilst I'd personally love to see them executed, I don't think it would be the right thing to do. But I do feel that public safety is paramount, and they should be confined to cell for the rest of their natural lives. And if they can't behave in prison. Well they can spend their days in solitary confinement.

giving the scum you mention an injection is far cheaper than keeping them in prison for 30, 40 or 50 years.

Prison is no deterrent anymore - if it was you wouldn't have guys racking up 50, 100 or more convictions

awec

realies wrote: »

With all the kill em and flog em throw away the key brigade here in AH,I was wondering what opinions would the broder posters here recommend for punishments in dealing with crime,drug dealing,tax evasion,scamming,corruption or do they think as imo overall the present situation is working albeit with some mistakes and with room for improvements.



As a note for years In the north there was paramilitary punishment beatings, Very severe ones with legs,arms,elbows,toes,hands all smashed with Iron bars or sometimes in republican areas with hurley's,& also not forgetting kneecapping.There was also quite a few people shot dead for anti social behaviour,In fact there was one young lad shot dead in donegal last month.The point being this has never stopped drug dealing or people stealing cars or kept crime down in any shape or form.All it has done is turn young people who have serious problems into older people with serious problems and bad ass attitudes with even wider problems for all around them.

This is not ok though.

The same people playing judge, jury and executioner. That is not justice.

People tortured until they gave the answer that the torturers wanted to hear (much easier to abduct someone and beat them til they beg for death even if they're innocent, than abduct someone, torture them and then have to let them go - can't spin that so well :rolleyes: ).

(By the way, those punishment shootings aren't intended to stop drug dealing. They are intended to stop the wrong people drug dealing. Paramilitaries don't like it if you are dealing in their area without giving them a cut - it's all criminality these days. Hence, drug dealing continues. As does racketeering.).

The real solution is for courts to start getting serious and stop with these half assed sentences. Prisons need to be toughened. People should genuinely fear going to prison. If someone goes to prison then upon release they should never want to set foot in the place again.

Prison is punishment, and unfortunately it seems that has been forgotten.

M cebee

there should be a debate

larry murphy ,not a repeat offender but

he spoke to no one ,no rehabilitation and he's let out

it's crazy

awec

M cebee wrote: »

there should be a debate

larry murphy ,not a repeat offender but

he spoke to no one ,no rehabilitation and he's let out

it's crazy

10 years. A really bad joke. :mad:

benway

MrStuffins wrote: »

it all comes down to each person being responsible for their own decisions. It's partial apologists like yourself who had those little thieving scumbags who were looting and setting fire to houses while babies slept in them saying "Oh, i'm only doing it because the government don't care about us".

Are you saying the government do care about them? Social exclusion and crime tend to pass through generations in the same areas, do you honestly think that's because it's genetic or something? It's no co-incidence that the estates with the worst crime problems in this country were created to facilitate slum clearances.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the amount that free will can do for you. When I look at kids in the Children's Court or teenagers in the District or Circuit Court, or care applications where their parents are junkies or can't take care of them, you can see that the road has been fairly well mapped out for them from birth ... they were hardly going to become Chief Justice or Taoiseach. Sure, some people do manage to rise above it, generally with the help of a couple of lucky breaks, but they're the overwhelming minority.

And social exclusion is a huge driving factor, I personally think it's the biggest single cause of crime. Not all people living in poverty are socially excluded, but those who are tend to, in my view, go to crime as a kind of fúck you to straight society, a way of taking power and control over a situation, where for most of their lives, they're powerless and under the control of others.

Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it better for the victims, but it makes it understandable. And if we can understand it, we can do something about it.

Let's be clear, I'm no apologist, I just want to see the crime problem dealt with in a rational and effective way - personally, I think that harsher punishment, longer sentences, etc., etc., will cause more problems than it will solve. All the evidence from around the world points to this, whether you like it or not.

Tipp Man wrote: »

How many innocent people would be killed?

Even one would be too many. It would make murderers out of the lot of us, and it would inevitably happen within a couple of years. Do you have a solution to this? Unless you're happy to be a murderer?

Tipp Man

benway wrote: »

Even one would be too many. It would make murderers out of the lot of us, and it would inevitably happen within a couple of years. Do you have a solution to this? Unless you're happy to be a murderer?

How do you know that it would inevitably happen within a couple of years? Is there facts to back this up or just a feeling you have?

Mr_Ekan

Assuming we're going to continue to live in a part of the world which, sensibly, doesn't engage in corporal or capital punishment, and that prison system is not really working because amongst the population you've got (B) people in there who see spending a bit of time in there a no social taboo, and (B) people in there who could be punished through better means.

Maybe something simple would be to take out some of those people in Group B & issue Day Fines, with a sliding scale for non-payment. Then you're keeping more dangerous criminals off the streets, whilst hitting the more Ordinary Joe Soap offenders, (or White Collar Criminal, depending), where they'll feel it most, and where it'll have a more benefical effect - their pockets.

twinQuins

prinz wrote: »

You are, everytime you lay the blame for crime primarily on "society" rather than the criminal. You are offloading responsibility from the criminal onto others... including the victims.

Oh ffs, come off it. There's willfully misinterpreting what someone says and then there's the absolute ****e you're coming out with here.

Crime is a problem for society, not just the criminals. Remove the causes of crime and you stop crime.
No one is "offloading responsibility" onto anyone. Conditions in the poorest parts of society do play a part in fomenting crime. Admitting that isn't blaming the victims, it's acknowledging the ****ing reality of the situation.

Tipp Man

twinQuins wrote: »

Oh ffs, come off it. There's willfully misinterpreting what someone says and then there's the absolute ****e you're coming out with here.

Crime is a problem for society, not just the criminals. Remove the causes of crime and you stop crime.
No one is "offloading responsibility" onto anyone. Conditions in the poorest parts of society do play a part in fomenting crime. Admitting that isn't blaming the victims, it's acknowledging the ****ing reality of the situation.

Crime is a problem for society your right. And its cause is criminals. So remove the criminals and you remove the crime

benway

Tipp Man wrote: »

Crime is a problem for society your right. And its cause is criminals. So remove the criminals and you remove the crime

If only it were that simple.

Tipp Man wrote: »

How do you know that it would inevitably happen within a couple of years? Is there facts to back this up or just a feeling you have?

What, the courts are perfect now?

For two examples, the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six would all have been long dead by the time their innocence was proved.

If you can find a way to make the courts infallible, we can move on to all the other reasons why capital punishment is a bad idea, 'till then it's [/debate]