Crime & punishment

token101

twinQuins wrote: »

Oh ffs, come off it. There's willfully misinterpreting what someone says and then there's the absolute ****e you're coming out with here.

Crime is a problem for society, not just the criminals. Remove the causes of crime and you stop crime.
No one is "offloading responsibility" onto anyone. Conditions in the poorest parts of society do play a part in fomenting crime. Admitting that isn't blaming the victims, it's acknowledging the ****ing reality of the situation.

Free housing, free education to an extent, a generous SW system. Don't all of these things alleviate and help poverty? What else is society expected to give? Not everyone who grows up less well off commits crime, it's a choice people make.

benway

token101 wrote: »

Free housing, free education to an extent, a generous SW system. Don't all of these things alleviate and help poverty?

Poverty is not the problem. Social exclusion is, and it's a different thing.

Throwing more money and hand-outs at it isn't the solution, no more than locking up the first-born male child of certain families is.

I tell you what would be a good start, if people didn't immediately tar petty criminals as "scum", "scumbags", "skangers", "knackers", and make out that they're somehow different and inferior to us. That would be a step along the road, right there.

Nodin

Tipp Man wrote: »

giving the scum you mention an injection is far cheaper than keeping them in prison for 30, 40 or 50 years.

Prison is no deterrent anymore - if it was you wouldn't have guys racking up 50, 100 or more convictions

....and the death penalty hasn't proven a deterrent either.

Nodin

token101 wrote: »

Capital punishment might be a step too far. But life without parole is suitable for a lot of people in this state. Like the Dundons, the scum who killed those Polish lads with a screwdriver and the scum who killed the Polish lad 'for a buzz'. Whilst I'd personally love to see them executed, I don't think it would be the right thing to do. But I do feel that public safety is paramount, and they should be confined to cell for the rest of their natural lives. And if they can't behave in prison. Well they can spend their days in solitary confinement.

...that's all well and good for those who have committed crimes. It doesn't go toward stopping that kind of mentality existing in the first place however. Thus in a few years you get Dundon Mk II.

Tipp Man

benway wrote: »

Poverty is not the problem. Social exclusion is, and it's a different thing.

Throwing more money and hand-outs at it isn't the solution, no more than locking up the first-born male child of certain families is.

I tell you what would be a good start, if people didn't immediately tar petty criminals as "scum", "scumbags", "skangers", "knackers", and make out that they're somehow different and inferior to us. That would be a step along the road, right there.

Look if people don't want to be tarred with a scumbag brush then stop acting like scumbags. this country is literaly overrun with scumbags

A major problem in Ireland is that people are too tolerante of these little toerags and feel pity and sorry for them - and tend to blame everything else bar the toerags for their problems

The concept that people are responsible for their own actions seems to be lost on some

CrazyRabbit

I'd post my opinion, but AH is so hostile that they'll want to hang me.

awec

Tipp Man wrote: »

Look if people don't want to be tarred with a scumbag brush then stop acting like scumbags. this country is literaly overrun with scumbags

A major problem in Ireland is that people are too tolerante of these little toerags and feel pity and sorry for them - and tend to blame everything else bar the toerags for their problems

The concept that people are responsible for their own actions seems to be lost on some

Ah, but this is the modern age. Nobody takes responsibility for anything these days! :rolleyes:


Jimmy is caught stealing from the shop.

"There is nothing else for me to do so I turn to crime"


Jemimah gets pregnant

"It's the state's fault for not educating me on sex"


Jimmy beats some other child up at school

"The teacher should have been there to stop it, that's what they're paid for"


Jimmy is caught underage with a bottle of cider and a load of dope

"The state should be educating me on the dangers of drink and drugs"


Commit the crime, do the time. Enough of this waffling about social inequalities or how times are tough or how these people are misunderstood. If you don't want to be locked up and subsequently ridiculed by society then don't break the fecking law.

Dravokivich

benway wrote: »

You're saying this from extensive experience of dealing with prisoners, is it?

I do agree that rehabilitation is difficult, but the reason for that is that it's the social conditions outside the prison that drive crime, not that "some people are just evil" or whatever nonsense you want to trot out. With the best intentions, people dropped back into the same conditions more often than not end up making the same mistakes.

Not from experience working in a prison no. But of seeing people going around not giving a shít about their actions and the consequences of such that affect other people. There is going to be a number of them that just simply wouldn't want to be rehabilated. It's not because they "Don't know better," either.

Rehabilitation can work, but only if someone wants to rehabilitate. It isn't possible to force upon someone. Can't help but think that someone who has built up a number of prior charges has had as many chances as possible given to them and doesn't want them.

lividduck

foxyboxer wrote: »

Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!

God doesn't exist, she is just a myth

lividduck

ForegoneReality wrote: »

The original point of jails was to deter and punish those who commit crime.

The other, more prominent point; was that jail kept those criminals from being able to harm anyone else.

The second point doesn't exist anymore given that we have a revolving door system.

Any evidence for that claim, a link to your source evidence please.

token101

Nodin wrote: »

...that's all well and good for those who have committed crimes. It doesn't go toward stopping that kind of mentality existing in the first place however. Thus in a few years you get Dundon Mk II.

What more is society supposed to give?

You'll never stop gangland crime anyway, the profits are too high for one thing. You need only look at the fact that Shane Coates' brother was apparently a normal decent human being while he was the ultimate violent scumbag. That case had nothing to do with upbringing or deprivation. So you get that anyway. I'd much prefer Dundon Mk II is locked up at 18 or 19 to spend his days in a cage and never sees the light of day again rather having them harm one innocent like Roy Collins or Shane Geoghegan.

lividduck

benway wrote: »

If only it were that simple.



What, the courts are perfect now?

For two examples, the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six would all have been long dead by the time their innocence was proved.

If you can find a way to make the courts infallible, we can move on to all the other reasons why capital punishment is a bad idea, 'till then it's [/debate]

Please dont throw goats meat at the Tro...... Oh I can't say that can I?

Gummy Panda

Crucifixion is the answer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EI7p2p1QJI

NAIL 'EM UP! NAIL SOME SENSE INTO THEM!!

The King of Moo

Tipp Man wrote: »

Look if people don't want to be tarred with a scumbag brush then stop acting like scumbags. this country is literaly overrun with scumbags

A major problem in Ireland is that people are too tolerante of these little toerags and feel pity and sorry for them - and tend to blame everything else bar the toerags for their problems

The concept that people are responsible for their own actions seems to be lost on some

Unfortunately that's not always how it works. I often see people branded as "scumbags" or worse because of the way they look.

In the case of the burglar who was run over by a property developer, someone posted a picture of his sister, saying something like "look at the state of her, I'm sure she's just as bad as him, bloody scumbag!"
I don't know how many times I've seen "scumbag" or "skanger" used to describe how someone looks, even if they haven't done anything.

So there is a lot of prejudice against the underclass of our society, or at least those who look like they might belong to it, and such prejudice only exacerbates their social exclusion.

lividduck

The King of Moo wrote: »

Unfortunately that's not always how it works. I often see people branded as "scumbags" or worse because of the way they look.

In the case of the burglar who was run over by a property developer, someone posted a picture of his sister, saying something like "look at the state of her, I'm sure she's just as bad as him, bloody scumbag!"
I don't know how many times I've seen "scumbag" or "skanger" used to describe how someone looks, even if they haven't done anything.

So there is a lot of prejudice against the underclass of our society, or at least those who look like they might belong to it, and such prejudice only exacerbates their social exclusion.

Very well put , though I think you may "casting pearls before swine" to steal a phras from the christian bible

Chuck Stone

There should be a lot less people in prison for non-violent crime; for example:

Drug offences: Alternative? Decriminalise and move towards complete legalisation and state regulation.

Prostitution: Alternative? Decriminalise and move toward complete legalisation and state regulation.

Tax evasion: Fined twice/thrice as much as you tried to get away with.

Non payment of fines. Money removed from welfare or taxed at pay source at a punitive rate until paid back with interest.

High level financial corruption. Loss of property rights. Loss of limited liability so the person could be pursed until every penny is taken and they are left destitute.

Crimes against property: Option to pay off the loss or damages with interest or prison term.

---

Crimes like rape, random assault, child sexual abuse, murder etc punished much harder - second offence should be jail for natural life for most of these types of crimes.

That's off the top of my head.

lividduck

Chuck Stone wrote: »

There should be a lot less people in prison for non-violent crime; for example:

Drug offences: Alternative? Decriminalise and move towards complete legalisation and state regulation.

Prostitution: Alternative? Decriminalise and move toward complete legalisation and state regulation.

Tax evasion: Fined twice/thrice as much as you tried to get away with.

Non payment of fines. Money removed from welfare or taxed at pay source at a punitive rate until paid back with interest.

High level financial corruption. Loss of property rights. Loss of limited liability so the person could be pursed until every penny is taken and they are left destitute.

Crimes against property: Option to pay off the loss or damages with interest or prison term.

---

Crimes like rape, random assault, child sexual abuse, murder etc punished much harder - second offence should be jail for natural life for most of these types of crimes.

That's off the top of my head.

Yea but if "random assault" is to be punished with a long prison sentences then you would have to disband the GAA....ever witness a GAA match that didn't involve random and senseless assaults on the pitch, never mind the oul wans hittin player with their handbags:D

Nodin

token101 wrote: »

What more is society supposed to give?

You'll never stop gangland crime anyway, the profits are too high for one thing. You need only look at the fact that Shane Coates' brother was apparently a normal decent human being while he was the ultimate violent scumbag. That case had nothing to do with upbringing or deprivation.
So you get that anyway. I'd much prefer Dundon Mk II is locked up at 18 or 19 to spend his days in a cage and never sees the light of day again rather having them harm one innocent like Roy Collins or Shane Geoghegan.

....but as theres always going to be a Dundon, theres always going to be a Roy Collins and Shane Geoghegan. The idea is that - starting early on - measures are taken to stop them turning into full fledged adult "scumbags".