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I think you're speaking from an academic perspective really, are you a sports scientist?
Do all high-performance BJJ athletes incorporate some kind of strength training - yes they do (I'm almost sure).
Would a regular joe who trains bjj 3 times a week benefit from an extra strength training day?
yes he would (in my opinion).
These are givens and are not the crux of the discussion.
The real question is -if you could train 4 times a week in bjj or 3 times with 1 s&c class, where would your game be in 12 months with each course.
my answer will always be if you want to get better at bjj spend as much time on the mat as possible. However, in reality, bjj is actually a team sport and you need a couple of guys and some mats to train, where as s&c can be an individual endeavour in 24h gym or home gyms.
If I was hanley's coach I'd tell him to do what he is doing. train as much time on the mat as possible and if you have time in the day for s&c and you really enjoy it, go do that too. but never miss a bjj class to do a s&c class instead.
when you get to purple belt level and you want to start winning competitions, sure, think about getting stronger in a sports specific way.0 -
UL_heart_throb wrote: »I think you're speaking from an academic perspective really, are you a sports scientist?
Do all high-performance BJJ athletes incorporate some kind of strength training - yes they do (I'm almost sure).
Would a regular joe who trains bjj 3 times a week benefit from an extra strength training day?
yes he would (in my opinion).
These are givens and are not the crux of the discussion.
The real question is -if you could train 4 times a week in bjj or 3 times with 1 s&c class, where would your game be in 12 months with each course.
my answer will always be if you want to get better at bjj spend as much time on the mat as possible. However, in reality, bjj is actually a team sport and you need a couple of guys and some mats to train, where as s&c can be an individual endeavour in 24h gym or home gyms.
If I was hanley's coach I'd tell him to do what he is doing. train as much time on the mat as possible and if you have time in the day for s&c and you really enjoy it, go do that too. but never miss a bjj class to do a s&c class instead.
when you get to purple belt level and you want to start winning competitions, sure, think about getting stronger in a sports specific way.
I can understand your perspective.
However, most of the BJJ practitioners I know that win competitions do no weights whatsoever, in fact some of them have told me that they have gotten stronger and fitter when they stopped doing weights (one of them one of the top nogi grapplers in the country).
When you get to purple belt and you want to win competitions you're in the same boat you're in being at white belt or blue belt or brown belt and wanting to win competitions. Doing a strength and conditioning circuit in addition to BJJ training isn't mandatory at any level.0 -
are you a purple belt?
look at braulio, andre galvao etc?
a lot of bjj guys may say they don't do s&c because they don't do barbell work, but they do a huge amount of bodyweight and core exercises.0 -
UL_heart_throb wrote: »are you a purple belt?
look at braulio, andre galvao etc?
a lot of bjj guys may say they don't do s&c because they don't do barbell work, but they do a huge amount of bodyweight and core exercises.
Rolling is both a bodyweight, core, aerobic and anaerobic exercise in one, therefore everyone that does BJJ some sort of strength/conditioning whether they like it or not. So it's hard to avoid. Picking up a pound of butter in Tesco uses muscles so is that technically a strength exercise?
As I said, it's not mandatory at any level to do strength work.
If you want a bigger strength and conditioning component to your BJJ then roll with heavier guys! I'm 100kg and rolling with a 115kg guy is more taxing for me than any gym session I've done.
Why ask if I'm a purple belt? There's no real need for that cally-outey stuff. The successful people I've trained with have told me they do no lift weights. I only started lifting weights two months ago and before that I was as strong as any guy I rolled with, I wasn't better than them at bjj, but I had equal or more strength. So in my experience strength won't win you matches unless you're totally evenly matched with someone, which has to be a pretty rare occurance.
Anyway: You can say whatever you want, you seem to be trolling all around boards so I'm going to leave it at that.
Regards Braulio and Andre Galvao, if you're referring to the ADCC then that's not BJJ, it's submission grappling.0 -
Jesus dermot you know nothing.
Braulio and Galvao are both multiple world champions (2009 and 2008) most recently in bJJ respectively.0 -
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UL_heart_throb wrote: »Jesus dermot you know nothing.
I knew there was something not quite right about me!
Also...Why call me Dermot???0 -
Nothing sexy. Same as everybody interested in staying in one piece does. Hip and ankle mobility, single and double leg strength work, some specialist band prehab work and some proprioceptive work in warm ups.Out of interest, you mention 'bullet proofing' the knees. What kind of training do you do to address this? It's something I'm fairly concerned about since I started back at bjj.
Isometric band work in the sagittal and frontal axes, generally keeping my back strength up with heavy rows and pull ups, and T spine mobility.I enjoyed reading your blog. Just wondering what you do to strengthen your neck and shoulders. I'm not doing BJJ at the moment so my facilities are myself and a gym.
This argument is fairly silly.
"Well I don't know the sport but I assume you need to be strong"
"Well I do know the sport but have never lifted weights and you don't..."
"Well I know a bit about the sport and a bit about weights so I think..."
All of the top guys have a strength programme. You'd be surprised how weak some top guys are, and you'd be surprised how strong others are. I'm in contact and share notes with a lot of BJJ/MMA S&C coaches so I know a lot of the big names' strength numbers. What I can tell you is that some are quite weak lifters but still managing to win and look strong on the mat, some are very, very strong but get beat by weaker guys, and some are strong and win gold. Some are pushing prowlers and using Omega Waves, others are doing crappy circuit training with 2 kettlebells and a swiss ball.
So in other words it's like a lot of sports. That being said, all of those guys who are at the top are from a BJJ culture that isn't just about grappling, but also about looking after yourself, being strong and flexible and looking after yourself. Look at some of the older photos of BJJ from the 30s, 40s and 50s and you'll see parallels with other proponents of physical culture like Sandow, Hackenschmidt etc. So it's fair to say they're fairly strong from wrestling every day, climbing ropes, surfing (for some!), doing bodyweight stuff and so on without ever having set foot inside a gym.
I have this little saying that Strength and Conditioning is a con. It cons guys into thinking that all they have to do to be a good fighter is lift stuff, flip tyres, push sleds and swing kettlebells and they'll be champions. They do this because they see Galvao, St.Pierre etc. doing it and they think they want to be like them. Except they forget that there's 20 years (yes 20 years) of combat sports experience behind the top guys. I have had guys telling me they should be doing more plyometric work who can't throw a punch properly, and because they're thinking about that they never get to hit right. The worst period of BJJ and MMA coaching I've done is when my guys had a full gym at their disposal... coming to me wrecked from pushing prowlers and talking about improving their deadlifts and increasing their power when they couldn't escape mount position.
It's a con. Do some stuff to keep yourself healthy in your knees and back. Stay flexible. Lift for size if you want to look good on the beach, but mostly just get on the mat and roll and drill and try to understand that the reason you are always stuck underneath that other guy is because he's better than you.0 -
Barry.Oglesby wrote: »
It's a con. Do some stuff to keep yourself healthy in your knees and back. Stay flexible. Lift for size if you want to look good on the beach, but mostly just get on the mat and roll and drill and try to understand that the reason you are always stuck underneath that other guy is because he's better than you.
well on the other hand, you seem to be talking about guys who's priority is bjj. maybe it is now, i'm not sure how many people that train in any gym in ireland right now, will still be playing the game in 10 years. I would predict, plucking a statistic right out of thin air, that only 10% will still be playing the game regularly. Lots of guys will just go onto other things.
So why not take the time to learn about lifting weights and getting strong, maybe it will detract from your bjj game, but what matter? only 1% of guys ever get into it/good at it so it really matters how good they end up.
specialise in bjj to get good at bjj but generalise in all exercise if you want to. really doesn't matter anyway. it's just a hobby.0 -
So in other words, it's their priority now, but at some future stage it may not be their priority, so it's much better to hedge your bets and don't put 100% into it just in case? To 99% of people playing anything, sport is just a hobby.UL_heart_throb wrote: »well on the other hand, you seem to be talking about guys who's priority is bjj. maybe it is now, i'm not sure how many people that train in any gym in ireland right now, will still be playing the game in 10 years. I would predict, plucking a statistic right out of thin air, that only 10% will still be playing the game regularly. Lots of guys will just go onto other things.
So why not take the time to learn about lifting weights and getting strong, maybe it will detract from your bjj game, but what matter? only 1% of guys ever get into it/good at it so it really matters how good they end up.
specialise in bjj to get good at bjj but generalise in all exercise if you want to. really doesn't matter anyway. it's just a hobby.
So if I was for example, training for a marathon, I should probably get some chess practice in too.
Basically you're saying that unless you're going to be the 1% of elite competitors, don't bother directing all of your efforts towards training in jiu jitsu, because chances are you won't be a champion. Or, to put it another way, trying to improve and better yourself through training is useless unless you're going to win everything.
There are also some mathematical and logical holes in your argument that you might have a little think over too.0 -
Not really how i presented my opinion, but i guess you make a good straw man argument.
Let's present the two individuals side by side.
Person one is into bjj and wants to get good at bjj because bjj is cool.
Person two is into marathons and wants to get good at running marathons because marathons are cool.
Person one wants to do some auxiliary training in strength sports because she wants to develop as an athlete overall and is willing to take the resultant loss in performance in bjj as she splits her time 75-25 between both areas. My rationale is that learning the fundamentals of strength training will play multiple dividends and will stand to her when she realises bjj is boring and wants to do submission grappling or mma or crossfit or parkour. It will also benefit her bjj in some fashion but probably not as much as just doing bjj another session. She will also develop as an athlete by discovering a new discipline.
Person two as you presented it, has an immediate goal of running marathons and improving their time. He wants to go from running in 3hr 30mins to running it in 3 hours. So everything he does is about improving his running and doesn't do anything that will be high value in attaining his goal. So no, chess, weightlifting, bjj, sprinting doesn't offer him anything.
You can swap both and if you said you have a bjj purple belt who wants to win a competition and has that level of focus etc., they can't afford to be a tourist in another sport. In this case, would have to very economical with their time, i think you use the bargain analogy in your blogs or something to that effect.
I just think it's interesting that you seem to be forming your philosophy around the ideal athlete while I am forming mine around the real participant. Fundamentally to me, the only benefit of being a specialist and having tunnel vision about your training is to get as good as possible as quickly as possible (e.g. lets's say, ollie geddes) while the benefits of being a generalist are , as the term implies, much broader and in my current opinion more beneficial.0 -
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UL_heart_throb wrote: »Not really how i presented my opinion, but i guess you make a good straw man argument.
Let's present the two individuals side by side.
Person one is into bjj and wants to get good at bjj because bjj is cool.
Person two is into marathons and wants to get good at running marathons because marathons are cool.
Person one wants to do some auxiliary training in strength sports because she wants to develop as an athlete overall and is willing to take the resultant loss in performance in bjj as she splits her time 75-25 between both areas. My rationale is that learning the fundamentals of strength training will play multiple dividends and will stand to her when she realises bjj is boring and wants to do submission grappling or mma or crossfit or parkour. It will also benefit her bjj in some fashion but probably not as much as just doing bjj another session. She will also develop as an athlete by discovering a new discipline.
Person two as you presented it, has an immediate goal of running marathons and improving their time. He wants to go from running in 3hr 30mins to running it in 3 hours. So everything he does is about improving his running and doesn't do anything that will be high value in attaining his goal. So no, chess, weightlifting, bjj, sprinting doesn't offer him anything.
You can swap both and if you said you have a bjj purple belt who wants to win a competition and has that level of focus etc., they can't afford to be a tourist in another sport. In this case, would have to very economical with their time, i think you use the bargain analogy in your blogs or something to that effect.
I just think it's interesting that you seem to be forming your philosophy around the ideal athlete while I am forming mine around the real participant. Fundamentally to me, the only benefit of being a specialist and having tunnel vision about your training is to get as good as possible as quickly as possible (e.g. lets's say, ollie geddes) while the benefits of being a generalist are , as the term implies, much broader and in my current opinion more beneficial.
I don't like either person. I always say if you're going to create hypothetical people you should give them some depth. I think Person one should have a substance abuse problem in her past and is battling the demons within through her training, and Person B has a demanding father who expects perfection from him and is using marathon running as catharsis. All of which is as useful as any other hypothetical information.
Your point, to my reading of it, seems to be that if you're only a hobbyist you should be spreading yourself around because you'll probably end up doing something else anyway. Your idea seems to be that since this is so, then strength training would be beneficial. The reason I used the chess example is because it's equally valid, since you have assumed that someone doing BJJ now will move on to another sport. I think it's equally likely that they discover gaming, or chess, or going to church, or any number of things that don't require strength training.
You are arguing, in a thread where someone asked for BJJ training advice, that it's best not to worry too much about what's optimum since you might quit in a few years anyway. You're not actually adding anything to the discussion, you're just being awkward for awkward's sake.
In a nutshell, you are worse than Hitler.0 -
right, you're completely unreasonable and aren't worth further discussion with.0
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UL_heart_throb wrote: »right, you're completely unreasonable and aren't worth further discussion with.
If anyone goes to a sport they have never done before they'll see how hard it is. If you've never done BJJ then you will see how useless strength and conditioning are over practice.
Having done a small bit of Muay Thai I noticed how it really worked my body in a different way to BJJ, and it was extremely tiring, in particular my obliques from loading punches and rotating while kicking. The way it gets easier is by repeatedly kicking, not by doing ab work.
I'm a BJJ white belt, I rolled with Fernando Terere at a seminar, and some other high level blackbelts and one noticeable thing they all had in common is that they used as little effort as possible. I had 20 or 30kg on Terere and everything he did was 100% effortless. My strength counted for naught. I know he's a legendary BJJ player but my point is that his economising of his strength combined with thousands of hours of practice and strategising is what makes him great, not his strength and conditioning. When I started BJJ I used all power and no technique, which slowly got a bit better over time as my body learned to use technique instead of muscle to get dominant positions.
I'm a 2 year old child in BJJ terms but I have been very lucky to have some great guys in the club I trained at and some great seminars to go to.0 -
Ah here...stop feeding the troll...I'm only going to have to clean up the mess he's gonna make...0
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UL_heart_throb wrote: »If I was hanley's coach I'd tell him to do what he is doing. train as much time on the mat as possible and if you have time in the day for s&c and you really enjoy it, go do that too. but never miss a bjj class to do a s&c class instead.Barry.Oglesby wrote: »In a nutshell, you are worse than Hitler.If anyone goes to a sport they have never done before they'll see how hard it is. If you've never done BJJ then you will see how useless strength and conditioning are over practice.
I've highlighted the key posts in this thread for everyone's attention.
I'm so happy Godwin's Law was invoked.0 -
In Godwin we trust ™0
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This thread has become pointless.0
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This discussion has been closed.
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