A very very sad story

iregk

RainbowRose81 wrote: »

It's worrying to think where we would be if we were not a christian country from the begining.

I do agree with you. We've realised what a horrible country this was when ruled by the very people promoting Christianity and are looking to move on from it. Living in an every increasing atheist country, things are finally starting to look up for us. Think if we were not a christian country from the start, we may only be looking into now and setting up some nice places to clean peoples clothes and registering every child as an alter boy...

tdv123

Lash_Alert wrote: »

Stopped reading there.

ditto

AudreyHepburn

Folks is it no longer possible in this country to have a discussion without it descending into petty church and politician bashing?

Can we not just focus on the topic at hand. The Church is completely irrelevant to what that poor woman went through.

I think we might be better discussing why the monster who attacked her, and as far as I'm concerned push off that building, is walking free.

RIP

Cantona's Collars

It seems a lot of posters have just targeted the op's phrase of Christian Country in order to seem 'cool' and have forgotten it's just a phrase.

They have ignored the core story which is an act of barbarism by a man who got away with it.Too many of these acts take place due to some kind of twisted logic,the same with Honour Killings,I mean-who in their right mind would kill their daughter for a percieved slight on their family?

The disfigurement & death of a woman has been ignored here for thanks whoring and religion bashing.

biko

That's one ****ed up place.

More than 8,500 acid attacks, forced marriages and other forms of violence against women were reported in Pakistan in 2011, according to The Aurat Foundation, a women's rights organization.

Wiki

These attacks are most common in Cambodia,[8] Afghanistan,[9] India,[10] Bangladesh,[5][6] Pakistan[5] and other nearby countries.[7] According to Taru Bahl and M.H. Syed, 80% of victims of these acid attacks are female and almost 70% are under 18 years of age.[7]

According to New York Times reporter Nicholas D. Kristof, acid attacks are at an all time high in Pakistan and increasing every year. The Pakistani attacks he describes are typically the work of husbands against their wives who have "dishonored them".

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2008/11/29/opinion/1194834033797/acid-attack.html

--Kaiser--

Pakistan is a disgrace of a country

Duggy747

Typical bullshìt in terms of "honour" where women are defiled. Even without acid, angry men will try to disfigure women's faces by means of cutting their ears / nose off.

This is a good read on women who were affected by acid attacks.

Guy:Incognito

"The Pakistani government introduced new laws last year criminalising acid attacks"

Wha?

RustyNut

RainbowRose81 wrote: »

Well would you rather Ireland had Islamic roots rather than Christian ones? It's worrying to think where we would be if we were not a christian country from the begining.

O that's right the Irish Christians are great lads. Sure I remember the good Christians pointing out the error of their ways to the bad Christians going to the holy cross school, or the Christian leaders making sure that rape and incest victims had to honour the Christian god by carring the outcome to full term or enslaving young girls who offended god by following human instinct and ending up pregnant, educating young boys into the ways of the world through buggary and rape. Catholics killing Protestants, protestants killing Catholics. Yea great bunch the Christians.

Jimoslimos

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Straw man. The golden age of Arab science and progression occurred centuries ago, and actually spanned the coming of Islam. It'd be perfectly fair to suggest that their golden age occurred primarily due to the Caliphs of Baghdad and happened despite Islam.

Strawman? Where did I attribute science and progression to any religion? Enlightenment happened in China and the Arab regions despite religion, as it did in the Western world.

biko wrote: »

Wiki

These attacks are most common in Cambodia,[8] Afghanistan,[9] India,[10] Bangladesh,[5][6] Pakistan[5] and other nearby countries.[7]

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2008/11/29/opinion/1194834033797/acid-attack.html

Interesting Cambodia is mentioned, it is not a Muslim country (most are Buddhist), but it is extremely poor and has suffered a tragic civil war recently. I know - I was there, It's shocking.:(

zerks wrote: »

It seems a lot of posters have just targeted the op's phrase of Christian Country in order to seem 'cool' and have forgotten it's just a phrase.

Considering the OP started with the terms 'blessed' and 'Christian country', instead of 'lucky' and 'modern democracy', I'd say there was a not too subtle dig at Islam.

I'm far from a Islam apologist, just people in glass houses shouldn't be too quick to throw stones. We are all fortunate not to be living in a Christian country 100 years ago and I hope in 100 years from now, people in Muslim countries are saying similar.

billybudd

This is not about religion but about the failing of humanity, that poor roma girl whose body was found a few weeks ago was believed to be tortured and sexually abused for three days by what appears to be Irish people and what that garda said about lack of empathy rings very true, i would say what they did to that girl was equally or worse than what happened to this woman.

Ireland like alot of countries is full of horrific stories of abuse, neglect and human suffering which remain under the radar of the press, the countless children abused not only by the clergy but by fathers, uncles, aunties, cousins, close family friends, strangers etc etc.

most of us have evolved but sadly some have never and will never and will remain animals.

sbsquarepants

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Brutality is simply a condition of humanity. It's no less prevalent among those of one creed than in another.

Politically correct, but not true! Whereas brutality is possible in all creeds and cultures, some condone it more than others. It is a lot easier for something like this to happen in a muslim / hindu country than to happen in Ireland or Canada or somewhere like that.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

As an atheist, I want to support the OP in the face of the oh-so-trendy sneering at how she phrased her description of this country.

The OP meant well, but what made this country a safer place for women was the de-christianising that has occured over the past 30 or so years, the past 10 in particular.
The more or less catholic theocracy we used to have treated women every bit as badly as pakistan does now.

grindle

zerks wrote: »

It seems a lot of posters have just targeted the op's phrase of Christian Country in order to seem 'cool' and have forgotten it's just a phrase.

It's not to seem "cool", it's to point out flawed logic. It's not just a phrase, it's blatant ignorance of fact.

zerks wrote: »

The disfigurement & death of a woman has been ignored here for thanks whoring and religion bashing.

The act was/is revolting, and I'd rather this thread descend into the usual back and forth of "He should be tortured to death with acid!" (true) vs "He has a right to life, and is just as human as the rest of us... No to torture!" (false), but the OP equates cultural progression with Christianity, despite a consistent history of cultural oppression by and within Christianity which baby-stepped towards rational thought only once people started abandoning the cult or creating new, democratic flavours of the cult after centuries of torturing and deaths founded on belief in a cloud-dweller [but actually founded on wealth accumulation].

TL;DR, blah blah, snark, Internet, frazzled attention-span, cosy-ignorance.

Let's see what other current idols or movements we can say this crime wouldn't be caused by, therefore Islam is bad (the OPs core belief): the Celtic Tiger; Mr. Tayto; Scene-kids; Eric Cantona; Hackers; Barry's Tea; Bronies...

Thank Zod we live in a country where all these things exist, so we don't throw acid in people's faces. Phew!

AngryBollix

As a matter of interest why has the "christian country" part of the inital post received more attention than the act of violence that it highlights?

fishy fishy

RainbowRose81 wrote: »

Well I am talking about now not years ago. Anyways at least we have our moral compass working well now

you think? :rolleyes:

RustyNut

AngryBollix wrote: »

As a matter of interest why has the "christian country" part of the inital post received more attention than the act of violence that it highlights?

It seems to me that the point been made is that while this was a horrific attack it could not have happened here because this is a "Christian country" and the reason for it was somehow religious not just normal human depravity.

--Kaiser--

AngryBollix wrote: »

As a matter of interest why has the "christian country" part of the inital post received more attention than the act of violence that it highlights?

Considering all the atrocities carried out on the name of Christ throught the last two millenia, it is a pretty stupid statement.

Women being disfigured with acid, unfortunately, is quite a regular occurance

The King of Moo

I think it's safe to say the frequency of attacks like this is more to do with general social development than religion. They happen more often in parts of the world with lots of poverty, little education, and incredibly backwards political systems and power structures.

It's very easy to have a positive view of humanity's progress when we look all around us here in the West, but it's easy to forget that large parts of the world haven't moved on much from the Middle Ages, particularly in terms of gender relations, religious control, and treatment of minorities.

How terribly sad it is that there are so many men in the world who have demonised femininity so much that it terrifies and enrages them and they have to attack it in such a direct, barbaric fashion.

Lash_Alert

AngryBollix wrote: »

As a matter of interest why has the "christian country" part of the inital post received more attention than the act of violence that it highlights?

Because it was such a silly, odd statement, it demanded attention.

RainbowRose81

Well in Islam a women doesn't have much power, that says it all. I know a few women from muslim backgrounds actually living in the western countries and it's a normal expected occurance to get beating by your brother, husband or father if you go agaisnt them.

RainbowRose81

RustyNut wrote: »

O that's right the Irish Christians are great lads. Sure I remember the good Christians pointing out the error of their ways to the bad Christians going to the holy cross school, or the Christian leaders making sure that rape and incest victims had to honour the Christian god by carring the outcome to full term or enslaving young girls who offended god by following human instinct and ending up pregnant, educating young boys into the ways of the world through buggary and rape. Catholics killing Protestants, protestants killing Catholics. Yea great bunch the Christians.

Well I wouldn't call Ireland a real christian country because of what clergy in the catholic church did. A lot of catholics especially Irish don't know what real christianity is, it's not about judging people, it's about acceptance, living and letting people live and have their freedom.

Jimoslimos

RainbowRose81 wrote: »

Well I wouldn't call Ireland a real christian country because of what clergy in the catholic church did. A lot of catholics especially Irish don't know what real christianity is, it's not about judging people, it's about acceptance, living and letting people live and have their freedom.

No true Scotsman, eh?

The attack itself was shocking enough, whether it was carried out in a predominantly Muslim, Christian or atheist country is irrelevant. You might as well draw comparisons between poverty in Ireland and Pakistan for all it matters

RainbowRose81

Jimoslimos wrote: »

No true Scotsman, eh?

The attack itself was shocking enough, whether it was carried out in a predominantly Muslim, Christian or atheist country is irrelevant. You might as well draw comparisons between poverty in Ireland and Pakistan for all it matters

Well I am just pointing out the fact that women in Islam do not have much human rights, thats how it is and thats the way it's going to be because it's what they believe.

The King of Moo

RainbowRose81 wrote: »

Well in Islam a women doesn't have much power, that says it all. I know a few women from muslim backgrounds actually living in the western countries and it's a normal expected occurance to get beating by your brother, husband or father if you go agaisnt them.

Well I am just pointing out the fact that women in Islam do not have much human rights, thats how it is and thats the way it's going to be because it's what they believe.

I don't think you can blame Islam for that though: it's more of a case of men using it as an excuse to continue an incredibly backward patriarchal society.

You could equally say "Well in Christianity a women doesn't have much power, that says it all."
If the religion were observed strictly, this would be true.
But the leaders of the main Christian churches are based in liberal democracies, so they don't follow the instructions of the Bible regarding gender so strictly, as that would clash with the relative gender equality of such societies.

Yet in many countries in the Middle East you have terrible gender equality which isn't caused by Islam. It's caused by men who are terrified by female power, especially sexual power, so they demonise it and force women into subjugated roles and force them to hide their femininity out of fear of it.
They use Islam to back up their patriarchy, but if these were Christian countries, then I'm sure they'd point to passages in the Bible to demonstrate why it's ok to beat and kill women and force them to cover themselves up. Even if they were living in secular societies, they'd find some excuse.

These men aren't really religious, in that they're just picking certain elements of Islam to justify their treatment of women.
If you see any of the young, wealthy Saudi guys who come here to learn English (I've taught a few) you'll see that many of them are not particularly religious. They'll drink alcohol and eat non-halal meat and pork (which they probably did at home: the rules don't really apply to the rich and powerful), and will have no problem chatting up a European girl.
Yet if you ask them to talk to a Saudi woman, they'll sit there silently, awkwardly looking at their hands.
They're not all like that, but it shows you that it's immature, pathetic men who are behind such treatment of women, not Islam itself.

Wow..

She looked as if she was burned at the stake for being a witch......

Cavehill Red

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Strawman? Where did I attribute science and progression to any religion? Enlightenment happened in China and the Arab regions despite religion, as it did in the Western world.

You didn't do that. You inferred that, since the Muslim world had, centuries past, experienced a period of relative enlightenment (your term was 'golden age'), that there was some sort of cultural relativism between their culture and our own. I rejected that and explained why.
I also reject your suggestion that enlightenment occurs perennially despite religion. It is kneejerk and inaccurate to look solely to Galileo and Copernicus while ignoring the enormous and sustained sponsorship of and interaction with science that Christianity was responsible for.
Christianity's support for education in the Dark Ages alone preserved knowledge and philosophy, and Christianity has remained to this day a component part of contemporary moral discussion and science, both of which are enormously influential on our culture.
I don't believe in their sky daddy, but nor am I so ignorant to tar the whole history of Christian heritage with the same backward-looking regressivism that tars so much of contemporary Islam, and which has led directly to the scarring of this poor woman and thousands like her.

Cavehill Red

billybudd wrote: »

This is not about religion but about the failing of humanity, that poor roma girl whose body was found a few weeks ago was believed to be tortured and sexually abused for three days by what appears to be Irish people and what that garda said about lack of empathy rings very true,

Off-topic, but where's your evidence of this assertion? Roma people tend to keep themselves very much to themselves. That habit alone would suggest that the perpetrators are as likely to come from her own community as any other.

BizzyC

Up until the 1980's it was technically legal for a man to rape his wife in Ireland thanks to the Catholic church's involvment in setting laws.
You cant really credit the fact that we live in a country that was established in Christianity with the reason Women are treated with more respect here.

steelcityblues

BizzyC wrote: »

Up until the 1980's it was technically legal for a man to rape his wife in Ireland thanks to the Catholic church's involvment in setting laws.
You cant really credit the fact that we live in a country that was established in Christianity with the reason Women are treated with more respect here.

Some women aren't treated perfectly here, but have you ever read a story of an Irishman dumping acid on his wife/girlfriend?

BizzyC

And getting away with it? No.

I'm not denying that we have a better situation here, I'm just saying that religion doesn't come into play for the reasons why.

The reason why the d!ckhead in question got away with it was due to his family connections, not because his religion deemed him innocent.

steelcityblues

BizzyC wrote: »

And getting away with it? No.

I'm not denying that we have a better situation here, I'm just saying that religion doesn't come into play for the reasons why.

The reason why the d!ckhead in question got away with it was due to his family connections, not because his religion deemed him innocent.

The fact that it was only outlawed last year suggests a huge problem with Pakistan, whatever about Islam.

RustyNut

steelcityblues wrote: »

Some women aren't treated perfectly here, but have you ever read a story of an Irishman dumping acid on his wife/girlfriend?

I dont remember reading about too many Imams raping children.

charlemont

Nasty, Treating women as objects to be controlled is too acceptable in Pakistan.
Our politicians should be raising these issues at global level and shaming Pakistan , If one of us damaged a Qur'an they would be whipped into a frenzy burning flags and ranting and raving....Cave men..

Celly Smunt

steelcityblues wrote: »

Some women aren't treated perfectly here, but have you ever read a story of an Irishman dumping acid on his wife/girlfriend?

There was one english girl trying to get her face on every program she could though after an acid attack. from her boyfriend,so it does happen in the "western civilised world"

steelcityblues

pmcmahon wrote: »

There was one english girl trying to get her face on every program she could though after an acid attack. from her boyfriend,so it does happen in the "western civilised world"

That's very sad to hear, but the documentary which won an Oscar said that there at least 150 of these attacks in Pakistan, every year.

All things considered, you are much better off being a woman in this part of the world.

prinz

steelcityblues wrote: »

All things considered, you are much better off being a woman in this part of the world.

Forget it, you're in the twilight zone where the history culture and yes even religious background! :eek: of our societies have nothing to do with where we are as a people in the western world today.. (well only the negative stuff there was no positives, ever).

inforfun

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Off-topic, but where's your evidence of this assertion? Roma people tend to keep themselves very much to themselves. That habit alone would suggest that the perpetrators are as likely to come from her own community as any other.

Off topic answer -A couple of weeks ago there was this thread about that particular case.
If that is the one the poster was talking about.

inforfun

RustyNut wrote: »

I dont remember reading about too many Imams raping children.

Nope, they leave that to their prophet.

Formosa

RustyNut wrote: »

I dont remember reading about too many Imams raping children.

Grand so, it mustn't ever happen.

BizzyC

steelcityblues wrote: »

The fact that it was only outlawed last year suggests a huge problem with Pakistan, whatever about Islam.

Exactly my point. Religion isn't an important factor in this case.

Cavehill Red

RustyNut wrote: »

I dont remember reading about too many Imams raping children.

Because in the countries where they're raping them, journalism covering the crimes isn't encouraged.

But since you're curious -

http://1389blog.com/2012/03/05/child-rape-and-torture-in-the-madrassas-of-islam/

http://tribune.com.pk/story/173622/child-rape-three-year-old-assaulted-by-madrassa-teacher/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-15256764

http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=216585&cid=2

Cavehill Red

inforfun wrote: »

Off topic answer -A couple of weeks ago there was this thread about that particular case.
If that is the one the poster was talking about.

And the evidence the perpetrators were Irish as alleged? I mean, they might have been, or they might not have been. But the allegation was made that they were, without it seems to me any evidence to support it.

inforfun

Cavehill Red wrote: »

And the evidence the perpetrators were Irish as alleged? I mean, they might have been, or they might not have been. But the allegation was made that they were, without it seems to me any evidence to support it.

Not saying they were Irish nor am i saying they are not.
Only provided the link to that girls miserable story as i thought i remembered that was the one.

Auguste Comte

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Because in the countries where they're raping them, journalism covering the crimes isn't encouraged.

But since you're curious -

http://1389blog.com/2012/03/05/child-rape-and-torture-in-the-madrassas-of-islam/

http://tribune.com.pk/story/173622/child-rape-three-year-old-assaulted-by-madrassa-teacher/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-15256764

http://bdnews24.com/details.php?id=216585&cid=2

Something like here not so long ago.

Best get rid of all religion, then we can only blame people for the things people do, no excuses.

Dudess

We have a right to condemn the brutality of Islamic fundamentalism - what happened here in the past doesn't change that. We're hardly responsible for it anyway. And Ireland is undoubtedly a far, far better place in which to live than many muslim countries - for women AND men. Despite those who pretend Ireland is really repressed and other shyte, we all know it isn't - and life overall is pretty free and good here.
It's disingenuous to say also that christian countries globally today are equally as brutal is Islamic fundamentalist ones. That is simply not true.

But in the recent past, they often were - and that's why I, initially thinking it was just clumsy phrasing by the OP, now reckon there's a degree of "Christianity good, Islam bad" in what she's saying. OP, you talked about Ireland in terms of always being great for women - it was rightly pointed out that it wasn't, so you changed the goalposts to Ireland just recently instead.

And no matter what monstrosities are committed by Islamic fundamentalists though, these should not be used to ostracise moderate muslims. An end to the crazies yes, but not an end to the religion.

triseke

Duggy747 wrote: »

Typical bullshìt in terms of "honour" where women are defiled. Even without acid, angry men will try to disfigure women's faces by means of cutting their ears / nose off.

This is a good read on women who were affected by acid attacks.

My god, thats just horrendous. Its hard to believe that these girls have been brutalised the way they have. My heart goes out to them.

nlgbbbblth

AngryBollix wrote: »

As a matter of interest why has the "christian country" part of the inital post received more attention than the act of violence that it highlights?

I blame the hipsters.

midlandsmissus

triseke wrote: »

My god, thats just horrendous. Its hard to believe that these girls have been brutalised the way they have. My heart goes out to them.

Disgusting disgusting people who could do that. I see it was mainly by men who were rejected for marriage.