Fiscal Treaty Referendum.....How will you vote?

Scofflaw

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I have seen compelling scientific argument that it does not, in fact, exist. Something along the lines of its effects being explained by the principles of thermodynamics.


I think there is good argument for saying that we could attempt to negotiate further infrastructure loans/"gifts" from the EU or elsewhere to break ground on projects such as Luas BXD, Metro North and Dart Underground as a stimulus to get people working again. I recall a few months ago a very generous offer to Greece for this exact type of funding.

You mean like this?

Ireland is on the brink of receiving funds for a major stimulus package from the bank funded by the European Union following a meeting with Government ministers.

Finance Minister Michael Noonan and Public Expenditure Minister Brendan Howlin met senior officials of the European Investment Bank (EIB) to secure money for infrastructure projects and job creation.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ireland-close-to-europe-bank-funds-551645.html

Or indeed this?

The European Commission has made payments to Greece and Ireland from the European Globalisation adjustment Fund (EGF).

A total amount of €39.6 million will help 6,629 dismissed workers back into employment. This follows their redundancy in a number of sectors including construction industry and retail sector.

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=326&newsId=1148&furtherNews=yes

You have to bear in mind that at the moment - and particularly last year - as little attention as possible has been paid to good news while the media (and social media) engaged in apocalypse porn.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ozymandius2011

That sum is a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the cost of the bank baikout Scofflaw.

Scofflaw

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

That sum is a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the cost of the bank baikout Scofflaw.

Yes, that's a predictable response, and irrelevant. Our bank bailout was our government's choice - that's why Finna Fáil aren't in government any more.

cordially,
Scofflaw

gerryo777

Scofflaw wrote: »

Yes, that's a predictable response, and irrelevant. Our bank bailout was our government's choice - that's why Finna Fáil aren't in government any more.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Doesn't mean their legacy isn't.

Scofflaw

gerryo777 wrote: »

Doesn't mean their legacy isn't.

Sure. The decision to let Anglo fail is something that could have been done in September 2008 - once it wasn't, it became impossible to do it thereafter without that costing us even more money than keeping it going.

cordially,
Scofflaw

gerryo777

Scofflaw wrote: »

Sure. The decision to let Anglo fail is something that could have been done in September 2008 - once it wasn't, it became impossible to do it thereafter without that costing us even more money than keeping it going.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Until all bank debt throughout europe is federalised and separated from sovereign debt I will be voting no to anything europe or FG/Lab put to me and I will encourage everyone I know to do the same.

FreudianSlippers

Scofflaw wrote: »

You mean like this?



http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ireland-close-to-europe-bank-funds-551645.html

Or indeed this?



http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=326&newsId=1148&furtherNews=yes

You have to bear in mind that at the moment - and particularly last year - as little attention as possible has been paid to good news while the media (and social media) engaged in apocalypse porn.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I don't see any clear evidence that money was used for infrastructure projects... perhaps the public transport bridge at Marlborough Street?

Couldn't we look for more and guarantee that it be used to break ground on projects immediately. We have Metro North and Dart Underground ready to go as soon as there is money. Enabling works were about to start AFAIK.

swampgas

gerryo777 wrote: »

Until all bank debt throughout europe is federalised and separated from sovereign debt I will be voting no to anything europe or FG/Lab put to me and I will encourage everyone I know to do the same.

Okay, but how does a No vote achieve the federalising of all bank debt in Europe, and the separation of same from sovereign debt?

You might as well say you will not agree to anything the EU or FG/Lab put to you until the EU has put a man on the moon.

gerryo777

swampgas wrote: »

Okay, but how does a No vote achieve the federalising of all bank debt in Europe, and the separation of same from sovereign debt?

You might as well say you will not agree to anything the EU or FG/Lab put to you until the EU has put a man on the moon.

It might send a message to europe that we're not just going to dance to whatever tune they decide to play.
We are not a subject nation to germany and france, we are as much a part of the EU as anyone else.
Our voice should be listened to, not dictated to.

dvpower

gerryo777 wrote: »

It might send a message to europe that we're not just going to dance to whatever tune they decide to play.
We are not a subject nation to germany and france, we are as much a part of the EU as anyone else.
Our voice should be listened to, not dictated to.

You should campaign for a referendum with that wording so.

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

You should campaign for a referendum with that wording so.

I thought that was our government's job?

All they seem to want to do is secure the bank debt even more tightly to our sovereign debt. i.e the supposed renegotiating of the last €3 billion odd of promissory notes.

I suppose if enda gets his hair ruffled by germany or france again he'll think he's doing a great job.

Sit enda, beg, good boy!!!

swampgas

gerryo777 wrote: »

It might send a message to europe that we're not just going to dance to whatever tune they decide to play.
We are not a subject nation to germany and france, we are as much a part of the EU as anyone else.
Our voice should be listened to, not dictated to.

A no vote won't send any such message - it will simply put us outside the ESM, and leave the rest of the Eurozone to carry on without us. They have enough on their plates without wasting time and effort persuading us to do what is frankly very much in our own interests.

This is not a treaty where we have a veto, we are simply deciding whether we are in or out.

Scofflaw

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I don't see any clear evidence that money was used for infrastructure projects... perhaps the public transport bridge at Marlborough Street?

Couldn't we look for more and guarantee that it be used to break ground on projects immediately. We have Metro North and Dart Underground ready to go as soon as there is money. Enabling works were about to start AFAIK.

Round Up: EIB approves €500m for Metro North

The European Investment Bank Board has accepted the recommendation of its management committee to approve a loan of up to €500m for Metro North. The decision has been welcomed by Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey.

http://www.businessandfinance.ie/index.jsp?p=793&n=705&a=3510

http://www.businessandfinance.ie/cat_news_detail.jsp?itemID=1189

cordially,
Scofflaw

swampgas

gerryo777 wrote: »

I thought that was our government's job?

All they seem to want to do is secure the bank debt even more tightly to our sovereign debt. i.e the supposed renegotiating of the last €3 billion odd of promissory notes.

I suppose if enda gets his hair ruffled by germany or france again he'll think he's doing a great job.

Sit enda, beg, good boy!!!

As far as I understand it, the promissory note issue is a non-issue - basically we created money out of thin air to support the banks, eventually we have to destroy it again - it is only intended to be a temporary measure.

As for your other comments, they are rather pathetic.

gerryo777

swampgas wrote: »

A no vote won't send any such message - it will simply put us outside the ESM, and leave the rest of the Eurozone to carry on without us. They have enough on their plates without wasting time and effort persuading us to do what is frankly very much in our own interests.

This is not a treaty where we have a veto, we are simply deciding whether we are in or out.

I'm out.
4 years into this and unemployment is still rising and our sovereign debt is still rising and I can see no light at the end of the tunnel for Ireland.
If you think that by being able to add more debt to what we have already is a cure then your wrong.
Do you seriously think europe will 'carry on without us'?

dvpower

swampgas wrote: »

A no vote won't send any such message - it will simply put us outside the ESM, and leave the rest of the Eurozone to carry on without us. They have enough on their plates without wasting time and effort persuading us to do what is frankly very much in our own interests.

But gerry and others don't care what message is received, the message he thinks he is sending is the important thing. And the cost of sending the message isn't important, because he hasn't considered that at all.

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

But gerry and others don't care what message is received, the message he thinks he is sending is the important thing. And the cost of sending the message isn't important, because he hasn't considered that at all.

Listen dv, you disagree with anything I have ever posted here so your opinion on me means nothing.
Same ****e, different day!
As long as the government has money to pay you and your PS buddies your happy enough.

dvpower

gerryo777 wrote: »

I'm out.
If you think that by being able to add more debt to what we have already is a cure then your wrong.
Do you seriously think europe will 'carry on without us'?

This treaty isn't about adding more debt or not, although the result will impact on the amount we pay for it.

C14N

gerryo777 wrote: »

It might send a message to europe that we're not just going to dance to whatever tune they decide to play.
We are not a subject nation to germany and france, we are as much a part of the EU as anyone else.
Our voice should be listened to, not dictated to.

So really you want to vote No just for the sake of being anti-authority? What do you think that will actually achieve?

In poll news, Yes seems to be coming out on top lately. From TodayFM news:

Three polls published today give YES side a lead in referendum With just four days to go until the fiscal treaty referendum - three polls out today give the YES side the lead. The Sunday Times and Sunday Independent both show that among those who've decided how they'll vote, sixty per cent plan to support the treaty -while 40 per cent will reject it. The polls come ahead of the Taoiseach's televised address on the treaty at a quarter to six this evening on RTE One. The Sunday Business post poll shows that in the space of one week - four per cent of voters have switched their intentions from voting YES to voting NO.

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

This treaty isn't about adding more debt or not, although the result will impact on the amount we pay for it.

I thought this treaty was only about having access to the ESM?
Seems to be the main message coming from FF/FG/Labour.

beeftotheheels

gerryo777 wrote: »

I thought this treaty was only about having access to the ESM?
Seems to be the main message coming from FF/FG/Labour.

Yes. ESM. Cheap source of funds guaranteed if we ratify.

If we don't they'll probably cobble together something for us if we need a second bail out. But logic requires that they charge us more for those funds.

swampgas

gerryo777 wrote: »

I thought this treaty was only about having access to the ESM?
Seems to be the main message coming from FF/FG/Labour.

Access to the ESM would mean we would pay less interest for our outstanding debts, when we roll them over in 2014. Not having access to the ESM could mean we pay market rates instead, which really does increase the debt burden on the country.

Look, I know things look rough at the moment, but a No vote will actually make things worse, not better.

C14N

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Yes. ESM. Cheap source of funds guaranteed if we ratify.

If we don't they'll probably cobble together something for us if we need a second bail out. But logic requires that they charge us more for those funds.

Or that we get them from someone else who has less of a vested interest in us succeeding and who will inevitably still charge higher interest.

gerryo777

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Yes. ESM. Cheap source of funds guaranteed if we ratify.

If we don't they'll probably cobble together something for us if we need a second bail out. But logic requires that they charge us more for those funds.

More debt so.
No stimulus, more unemployment, less people working and paying tax.
Vicious circle.

beeftotheheels

gerryo777 wrote: »

More debt so.
No stimulus, more unemployment, less people working and paying tax.
Vicious circle.

But voting No makes the circle more vicious because we need even more austerity to pay the higher interest rate.

Voting Yes isn't a total answer, or course it is not. But voting No can only make matters worse, not better.

swampgas

gerryo777 wrote: »

Do you seriously think europe will 'carry on without us'?

Absolutely - they have their own problems to manage. If we decide to break ranks and go it alone outside the treaty, I would expect the other countries to do the absolute minimum to help us out. After all, we would be sending a message that we don't want to help them.

dvpower

gerryo777 wrote: »

I thought this treaty was only about having access to the ESM?

Its about that and other things too.

I suppose after we send a "message to europe that we're not just going to dance to whatever tune they decide to play", we could ask them to cobble together a new fund to bail us out again.

gerryo777

swampgas wrote: »

Absolutely - they have their own problems to manage. If we decide to break ranks and go it alone outside the treaty, I would expect the other countries to do the absolute minimum to help us out. After all, we would be sending a message that we don't want to help anyone else.

You are serious, aren't you?
Do you think it's in anyone's interest to see us struggle even more or even fail?
We have cards and we should be playing them.

beeftotheheels

gerryo777 wrote: »

We have cards and we should be playing them.

We do indeed, we have a pair of jokers a 2 of diamonds, a 3 of clubs and a 5 of hearts.

Doesn't really matter what the game is, that's a lousy hand so don't start betting your life savings on it.

swampgas

gerryo777 wrote: »

You are serious, aren't you?
Do you think it's in anyone's interest to see us struggle even more or even fail?
We have cards and we should be playing them.

Whatever cards we have have been played. I don't know (a) what leverage you think we have, and (b) what extra benefits we should be looking for.

Ireland is coping - that's my view of things right now. And part of the reason we're coping is that European tax payers have lent us a huge chunk of money at low interest rates so that we have time to get our affairs in order. What more do you want?

Even if other countries don't want us to fail (and they don't) that doesn't mean we can blackmail them into giving us money for nothing by threatening to wreck our own economy. Greece is discovering this right now.