Fiscal Treaty Referendum.....How will you vote?

PopeBuckfastXVI

Name Changed wrote: »

I'm voting no.

Although I doubt that will make a difference. The government scare tactics appear to have worked.

And the scare tactics of SF, PBP, The Socialists haven't?

Name Changed

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

And the scare tactics of SF, PBP, The Socialists haven't?

Not to the same extent. The government have got more coverage on it, and seem unwilling to have any proper debate over it with the no side.

The no side also waited ages to start their campaign. Declan Ganly only started appearing in the media about a month ago.

The majority of what the government has said has been scare tactics in my opinion, saying that we will have no access to any funds, etc. Of course we will. And from talking to friends that are voting yes, that seems to be what most are afraid of.

Happyman42

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Make them famous! Who are they, and what activity are they engaged in?

Just like the Intervention scheme. Look for where the flaws are and who is gaining and exploiting that flaw and you will find the vested interests.
The flaw at the core of the crisis is THE EURO. It cannot work in it's present form, the markets are clearly telling us that. Do you think it's a Greek farmer scrabbling around in bins to feed his family that wants to hold on to the Euro? Look at who is gaining from the Euro and you have your answer.
I do not want a central European Government because that in itself can't and won't work for a whole host of other reasons therefore to ACTUALLY stabilise the economy of the EU we need to look at the core of the problem; THE FLAWED EURO. Root and branch reform.

gent9662

Which way does it look to be going are there any exit polls out yet?

Villain

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

You've overplayed your hand, which consists of a 8 a 2, nothing on the flop, and you're the short stack. Your strategy relies on the 'Germans' needing us to sign up to this treaty, they don't.

Aside from that, I want you to answer this, even if you could put their government over a barrel, what is your justification for making the German taxpayer eat Irish banking losses?

Well if we default how much do the German banks and other EU banks stand to loose?

We might be overplaying our hand but its better than sitting there taking all the crap that is been thrown on top of us

PopeBuckfastXVI

Name Changed wrote: »

The majority of what the government has said has been scare tactics in my opinion, saying that we will have no access to any funds, etc. Of course we will.

They didn't say we will have no access to any funds, they said we will have no legal access to the ESM, and that is correct.

I guess telling the truth about an aspect of the treaty which would be negative is so much worse than:

AUSTERITY DOESN'T WORK DON'T WRITE IT INTO LAW!
5, 10, 15, 20 YEARS? HOW MUCH MORE AUSTERITY WILL YOU TAKE?
The treaty represented as a ball and chain, a physical punishment device.
NO TO WATER TAXES AND HOUSE CHARGES

Yes, of course, that's all rational argument...

PopeBuckfastXVI

Villain wrote: »

Well if we default how much do the German banks and other EU banks stand to loose?

You tell me, you're the one who is suggesting we do it?

And you think threatening an unnecessary default is somehow a card to play? Remind me never to do business with, or lend money to, you!

Can you list the 'crap that has been thrown on top of us'?

Apart from the cheap loans to keep the country going, of course...

PopeBuckfastXVI

Villain wrote: »

Well if we default how much do the German banks and other EU banks stand to loose?

We might be overplaying our hand but its better than sitting there taking all the crap that is been thrown on top of us

Also I notice you completely ignored my request for the justification in making the German tax payer eat Irish banking losses?

PopeBuckfastXVI

Happyman42 wrote: »

Just like the Intervention scheme. Look for where the flaws are and who is gaining and exploiting that flaw and you will find the vested interests.
The flaw at the core of the crisis is THE EURO. It cannot work in it's present form, the markets are clearly telling us that. Do you think it's a Greek farmer scrabbling around in bins to feed his family that wants to hold on to the Euro? Look at who is gaining from the Euro and you have your answer.
I do not want a central European Government because that in itself can't and won't work for a whole host of other reasons therefore to ACTUALLY stabilise the economy of the EU we need to look at the core of the problem; THE FLAWED EURO. Root and branch reform.

I'm asking you, you seem to already know, you've even identified that they are engaged in 'activity'.

If you know this share it, if you don't then I'm afraid it just boils down to a conspiracy theory.

Heads the ball

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Also I notice you completely ignored my request for the justification in making the German tax payer eat Irish banking losses?

It is probably the same rationale that meant that the ECB would not allow Ireland to impose some sort of burdensharing on some bank bondholders.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Heads the ball wrote: »

It is probably the same rationale that meant that the ECB would not allow Ireland to impose some sort of burdensharing on some bank bondholders.

The ECB is not the German taxpayer.

Heads the ball

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

The ECB is not the German taxpayer.

I never said that it was

PopeBuckfastXVI

Heads the ball wrote: »

I never said that it was

So your post is irrelevant to the conversation, thanks for that.

But feck it, while we're at it, can you detail exactly how the ECB prevented burden sharing?

Villain

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Also I notice you completely ignored my request for the justification in making the German tax payer eat Irish banking losses?

The same reason why it was heaped on us? Bad regulation of the banking system?

Why do you think its such a bad idea to play our hand, why has Enda Kenny stated we haven't and won't look for a write down on our debt, why should Irish tax payers repay bad bank debts?

Heads the ball

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

So your post is irrelevant to the conversation, thanks for that.

Its not really. You asked for the JUSTIFICATION as to why German taxpayers would suffer as a result of Irish banking losses.

My answer is that that JUSTIFICATION is probably the same justification that was applied when the ECB decided to unilaterally disallow Ireland impose burdensharing.

Presumably that justification (in both cases) was that it was in Europe's wider interest.

Happyman42

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

They didn't say we will have no access to any funds, they said we will have no legal access to the ESM, and that is correct.

I guess telling the truth about an aspect of the treaty which would be negative is so much worse than:

AUSTERITY DOESN'T WORK DON'T WRITE IT INTO LAW!
5, 10, 15, 20 YEARS? HOW MUCH MORE AUSTERITY WILL YOU TAKE?
The treaty represented as a ball and chain, a physical punishment device.
NO TO WATER TAXES AND HOUSE CHARGES

Yes, of course, that's all rational argument...

Not going to happen...you are forgetting the GREED quotient...sometimes called politics.
If we have to leave, it will be after Greece and just beore Spain, which means the whole ridiculous tower comes down.
Long as there are those who are gaining from the Euro, ways will be found and accomodations will be made. That's the 'irational political' dimension.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Happyman42 wrote: »

Not going to happen...you are forgetting the GREED quotient...sometimes called politics.
If we have to leave, it will be after Greece and just beore Spain, which means the whole ridiculous tower comes down.
Long as there are those who are gaining from the Euro, ways will be found and accomodations will be made. That's the 'irational political' dimension.

I didn't say anything about leaving, you're fighting strawmen here!

PopeBuckfastXVI

Heads the ball wrote: »

Its not really. You asked for the JUSTIFICATION as to why German taxpayers would suffer as a result of Irish banking losses.

My answer is that that JUSTIFICATION is probably the same justification that was applied when the ECB decided to unilaterally disallow Ireland impose burdensharing.

Presumably that justification (in both cases) was that it was in Europe's wider interest.

Not just suffer, but be the only one's to suffer though? The Original Poster wants Germany, the German taxpayer to eat the debt of the Irish banks on the basis that it's immoral that the Irish tax payer do so, can you not see the irony there?

PopeBuckfastXVI

Villain wrote: »

Why do you think its such a bad idea to play our hand, why has Enda Kenny stated we haven't and won't look for a write down on our debt, why should Irish tax payers repay bad bank debts?

I don't believe we should have repayed bad bank debts, but that money is gone now and you want the German taxpayer to pick up the tab for some reason?

Why not the american tax payer, or the UK tax payer while we're at it? No? Just ze 'germans' because we all know they're the 'baddies' of everything.

You don't seem to understand that we don't have a 'hand'!

Happyman42

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

I'm asking you, you seem to already know, you've even identified that they are engaged in 'activity'.

If you know this share it, if you don't then I'm afraid it just boils down to a conspiracy theory.

Read this, open your eyes, imagine real people being consigned to penury and real hunger, imagine real people swarming around and capitalising on Spain's troubles. Now imagine a flock of vultures and why they appear. How do you stop vultures flocking.....don't leave any dead meat around.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0531/breaking10.html

Name Changed

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

They didn't say we will have no access to any funds, they said we will have no legal access to the ESM, and that is correct.

I guess telling the truth about an aspect of the treaty which would be negative is so much worse than:

AUSTERITY DOESN'T WORK DON'T WRITE IT INTO LAW!
5, 10, 15, 20 YEARS? HOW MUCH MORE AUSTERITY WILL YOU TAKE?
The treaty represented as a ball and chain, a physical punishment device.
NO TO WATER TAXES AND HOUSE CHARGES

Yes, of course, that's all rational argument...

The EU are not going to dismiss Ireland. It would result in the fall of the Euro, one way or another. We might not have legal access, but we would still get the access needed. There is no way we will comply with the fiscal treaty (or that stability treaty, as the government like to call it). And then we are in big trouble, with no cards to play.

Heads the ball

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Not just suffer, but be the only one's to suffer though? The Original Poster wants Germany, the German taxpayer to eat the debt of the Irish banks on the basis that it's immoral that the Irish tax payer do so, can you not see the irony there?

Personally I think that is unfair; however I also feel it is was grossly unfair for the ECB to demad to pay what Vincent Browne describes accurately as a debt that we had no "moral or legal obligation to pay."

Dont you think that that was one of the most vomit-enducing things you have ever heard (politiclally speaking of course)?

So dont you see that fair play (and proper "justification") has been abandoned a long time ago?

PopeBuckfastXVI

Happyman42 wrote: »

Read this, open your eyes, imagine real people being consigned to penury and real hunger, imagine real people swarming around and capitalising on Spain's troubles. Now imagine a flock of vultures and why they appear. How do you stop vultures flocking.....don't leave any dead meat around.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0531/breaking10.html

You implied earlier that they were actors within the EU, now you are saying the financial traders. If you are saying the traders are bottom feeders that will capitalize on others misery to make a quick buck, then we're totally in agreement.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Name Changed wrote: »

The EU are not going to dismiss Ireland. It would result in the fall of the Euro, one way or another. We might not have legal access, but we would still get the access needed. There is no way we will comply with the fiscal treaty (or that stability treaty, as the government like to call it). And then we are in big trouble, with no cards to play.

We have no cards to play, unless you count a suicide vest.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Heads the ball wrote: »

Personally I think that is unfair; however I also feel it is was grossly unfair for the ECB to demad to pay what Vincent Browne describes accurately as a debt that we had no "moral or legal obligation to pay."

Dont you think that that was one of the most vomit-enducing things you have ever heard (politiclally speaking of course)?

So dont you see that fair play (and proper "justification") has been abandoned a long time ago?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

blowtorch

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Also I notice you completely ignored my request for the justification in making the German tax payer eat Irish banking losses?

Or - what's the justification for Irish taxpayers paying for the gambling debts of the German bankers?

Welcome to Casino Ireland where we guarantee your winnings. Special ongoing offer - Free bet, guaranteed winnings.

Mental Mickey

I honestly don't have a clue which way to vote.....? I'm swaying towards the Yes side, purely because of(imo) Sinn Fein's(and their ilk)scaremongering.

They say Nil to bloody everything.

Happyman42

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

I didn't say anything about leaving, you're fighting strawmen here!

What will happen if we can't raise the money?

Heads the ball

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Heads the ball wrote: »

Personally I think that is unfair; however I also feel it is was grossly unfair for the ECB to demad to pay what Vincent Browne describes accurately as a debt that we had no "moral or legal obligation to pay."

Dont you think that that was one of the most vomit-enducing things you have ever heard (politiclally speaking of course)?

So dont you see that fair play (and proper "justification") has been abandoned a long time ago?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Yeah i'd hate to see Germany get a bad deal; we should definitely draw the line there

PopeBuckfastXVI

blowtorch wrote: »

Or - what's the justification for Irish taxpayers paying for the gambling debts of the German bankers?

Which German bankers, exactly?

I know that Sean FitzPatrick wasn't German, I know he had 'gambling debts' from Anglo, so does that make the Anglo bailout justified?