Fiscal Treaty Referendum.....How will you vote?

Mal-Adjusted

I got a little suspicious when my polling card didn't come in the post. it turns out that since the presidential election, the powers that be deemed it fit to remove me from the voting register without my knowledge.

who do I get in contact with to clear this up? the local authority?

paddy0090

xoxyx wrote: »

.....

I understand that times are bad and some people feel that the only way to lash out is to fight against the powers that be, but we need Europe more than it needs us, and if we manage to lose ourselves access to the ESM, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. For a country that has managed to bankrupt itself twice in the last three decades, I'd say we should be taking all the help and guidance that we can get.
......

It's not the rules that scare me it's further access to the ESM. There's 7 months left to see out the year without putting money into one of the banks. If we get access to it I think it'll be the 4th year in a row we throw good money into failed institutions. The EU still has no rules for winding up failed banks so govt.s are free to prop them up indefinitely with taxpayers cash. And we all know how the ECB feels about burning bondholders so they'll have plenty of supporters for such action. For whatever reason you voted yes did this not scare you?

Last year all talk of a second bailout was rubbished. The govt. were commited to reducing spending and balancing the books. Now with the ESM on the horizon they're slowly changing their position to "we really need this mechanism".

Mathew Elderfield said today that the banks need 3 to 4 billion to meet new capital requirement rules. This after we "overcapitalized" them last year. Yes I know Rabbitte dismissed this as something further down the road referring to when the banks will be profitable.....yeah when the banks will be profitable.

I've voted yes for all the previous EU referendums I had the vote in, and, where it just the Growth & Stability Pact 2.0 (I had no problem with the first one) I'd vote yes for this it. But it's not it's the EDM too.

xoxyx wrote: »

We didn't help ourselves either with our hopeless handling of money as soon as we realised that we had some. The rot that led to the Irish collapse began when we were all happy as pigs in ****e with our many holidays and shiny new cars and no cares about the future.

Who is this we? I didn't and I know plenty of people who didn't. Some people I know actually bought houses because they were afraid they wouldn't be able to in the future if they waited any longer. You're definitely right about a sizeable minority and I'm guessing your one of them.

Ozymandius2011

DC from politics.ie just tweeted that he's just back from Cellbridge where turnout is described as "worst in memory".

Happyman42

xoxyx wrote: »

I can't put my hand on my heart and say that I'm in agreement with everything that the EU has done or the decisions that we've made since the bubble burst. One thing I strongly disagree with is the treatment of the bondholders. I would have been one of the first to get out the petrol and strike a match. But, even now, I believe the good outweighs the bad, and the access to funds at a reasonable interest rate is seriously important to us.

We're facing severe and tiring austerity no matter how you look at it. If I believed the no campaigners, should they ever come into power, had an easier way of doing things, I would change my vote straight away. But, talk is cheap and the no campaigners are the people who can say anything they want safe in the knowledge that they can never be called up on it 'cause "everything's the fault of the current government". I would love to see (from afar) how our country fared if they were put in power. IMO, they're the equivalent of shit-stirrers in the playground.

One thing to remember, though, is that this economic crisis is not limited to the EU. It's rife right now, which, I believe, is a cyclical thing. This is a much further reaching issue and, while it's easy to blame Europe, the Euro, the Germans, whoever you can point a finger at, you really have to look at the background.

We didn't help ourselves either with our hopeless handling of money as soon as we realised that we had some. The rot that led to the Irish collapse began when we were all happy as pigs in shite with our many holidays and shiny new cars and no cares about the future.

There's a whole wealth (excuse the pun) of history behind where we came to be where we are, and I don't understand the people who are advocating breaking away from Europe and making our own way out of this mess when we have no experience of doing so and, based on previous experience, we don't have a clue what we're doing and are feeling our way in the dark.

I don't see too many advocating a break with Europe, I do see many who want out of the Eurozone, because it isn't working. What the EU did for us in the past is not the point, the EEC/EU was set up to bring prosperity to ALL, the richer member states knew that that was the price of greater trading links etc. It's the future that matters to most people and that looks very bleak if a halt isn't called to the failure that is the Euro and if all member states aren't made to take responsibility in the crisis, everyone played their part in the crisis happening. Don't let the Yes side con you on that score.

dvpower

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

DC from politics.ie just tweeted that he's just back from Cellbridge where turnout is described as "worst in memory".

Some turnout tweets from RTE all in the last hour:

@RTE_Referendum wrote:

In Clare the turnout is at 38-40% in the urban areas of Clarecastle and Ennis, at 42% in Killaloe, at 39% in Lisdoonvarna & 40% in Tulla.
In Tipperary North the turnout was just between 40 and 45% at 8:30pm.
Turnout on the northside of Limerick city was at 53% at 8:30pm, while the southside was at 45%.
Turnout in north Cork at 8pm - 36% average in Mallow, 40% in Kanturk. In Clonakilty, west Cork, 40% have voted in urban areas & 39% in rural
Turnout at 8pm in Cork - 35% in Blackpool, up to 42% in Mayfield, 43% in Turner's Cross, 40% in Togher, 43.4% in Greenmount.
The highest turnout so far in Dublin city is in Dublin North Central, at 33%. Dublin Central is lowest, at 23%. #euref
Dublin city turnout reached an average 27% by 6pm. This compares with 25% by 5pm in the recent Presidential election. #euref
By 6.40pm turnout in the South East of the country was averaging 30%, reaching 35% in some areas.
Turnout in Louth at 6pm - Stonetown, a rural area near Dundalk: 14%, Blackrock area: 28%, parts of Drogheda: 30%.
Turnout in the North East is described as slow; at 6pm 22% had voted in Kells, Co Meath; Slane & Athboy was similar. Navan was higher at 30%

Technocentral

Surprised at this poll here, imagine the results will be reversed at the very least for actual one?

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

But when corrupt (Northern Bank, print cartridges) gombeen (Ferris, O'Snodaigh) parties advise you to vote NO, that is what you do?

I think you can roll all the Yes advocating parties into a tight group but you can't say the same about the No side, many shades and many nuances. Fairly typical that you would try and tar them all as Shinner loving acolytes.

gerryo777

Godge wrote: »

But when corrupt (Fianna Fail, destroyed the economy) gombeen (cowan/healy rea) parties advise you to vote YES, that is what you do?

Fixed that for ya.

radioactiveman

Godge wrote: »

Oh dear,

A pity you didn't have credible reasons for voting no.

My credible reason for voting no was to at least try to negotiate something better rather than accepting everything.

As regards debt we are still paying out on unsecured bonds and the choice now is the same as it was before.

And there is some loss of sovereignty (I might have exaggerated a little there by I give you that :pac:

I hope we can get access to the fund without having to give up our low tax rate. Hopefully it will play out that way.

Happyman42

radioactiveman wrote: »

My credible reason for voting no was to at least try to negotiate something better rather than accepting everything.

Too right....off course none of the Yes side would see that as Enda's job, to negotiate in our interests before he presents us with something. He doffs the hat for them.
They did their best not to allow this go to referendum which is fine if our government is working in the best interests of it's people first. It will be a long time before we can find men and women to do that. So referenda it will be.

Scioch

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

I got a little suspicious when my polling card didn't come in the post. it turns out that since the presidential election, the powers that be deemed it fit to remove me from the voting register without my knowledge.

who do I get in contact with to clear this up? the local authority?

How the hell can this happen ? Your the second person in the thread who had this problem.

I mean someone is a registered voter, then without being informed is taken off the register and subsequently without a vote at the next referendum. Ridiculous.

PopeBuckfastXVI

LordSmeg wrote: »

How the hell can this happen ? Your the second person in the thread who had this problem.

I mean someone is a registered voter, then without being informed is taken off the register and subsequently without a vote at the next referendum. Ridiculous.

Happened to me too.

Hotblack Desiato

Did someone else in the house return a registration form without you on it?

It's not surprising though that local authorities screw things up. The voting register should be compiled centrally and require a PPSN.

Bet you'll pay attention the next time the 'check the register' ads are on radio and TV though!

Technocentral

LordSmeg wrote: »

How the hell can this happen ? Your the second person in the thread who had this problem.

I mean someone is a registered voter, then without being informed is taken off the register and subsequently without a vote at the next referendum. Ridiculous.

I used to live in James Street, I moved and didn't inform authorities, when the next gathering of info for electoral poll happened the new people in my old place obviously didn't put me down as living there so I wasn't eligible to vote from there, I forgot to re register in Milltown so I wasn't on the electoral register, quite easily happens.

Wild Bill

humanji wrote: »

There are reasons to vote no. Explain them and let people decide if they agree with you.
Calling people delusional because they don't agree with you is a sign that you're not able to get your point across, and so maybe you should leave the canvassing to those who actually can?

I have already stated that I'm not canvassing, thus I am leaving it to those who can and those, like yourself, who can't. I have explained why a "no" vote is the only rational option, as have many other posters. At the end of the day one must concede that scared, threatened people can't be convinced - except by experience of what is to come. Reality will bite.

It's a sad thing when someone who would presumably call themselves Irish would have such pure hatred for the Irish people to go out of their way to try and trick people into agreeing with them.

I reserve pure hatred contempt for stupid people, regardless of nationality :cool:

The "yes" economists and politicians are largely the same drones who were waffling about a "soft landing" in 2006 and 2007.

I was forecasting exactly what has happened.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Wild Bill wrote: »

I was forecasting exactly what has happened.

Me too! And being told I was an idiot, by anyone who gave me a chance to talk. I still think this treaty is in Ireland's best interests though. So I guess that's the opinion of the property bears divided then...

Scioch

Technocentral wrote: »

I used to live in James Street, I moved and didn't inform authorities, when the next gathering of info for electoral poll happened the new people in my old place obviously didn't put me down as living there so I wasn't eligible to vote from there, I forgot to re register in Milltown so I wasn't on the electoral register, quite easily happens.

I dont recall anything here about registering again after the last election though. I dont even recall anything before that. Election or referendum comes around and voting slips arrive.

Scioch

ninja900 wrote: »

Did someone else in the house return a registration form without you on it?
!

So if I send in a registration form from this address with only my name on it I wipe everyone else in the house off the register ? Thats a bit shabby.

Hotblack Desiato

A new register of electors is published each year. It's up to you to make sure you're on it.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html

A new draft Register is compiled each year and is published on 1 November.

Correcting your details in the draft Register

If you need to add your name or change your entry in the draft Register, you can do this up to 25 November each year. You must fill in form RFA1 for the draft Register (pdf). You can get an RFA1 form from your local post office or public library. Forms are also available from your local authority and this is where completed forms should be returned to.

If you are applying because you have moved to a new address, you should include this information and your former address so that you can be removed from the register for that area.

The amended Register of Electors is published on 1 February and comes into force on 15 February.

The supplement to the Register of Electors

If your name is not on the Register of Electors in February, you may still make an application to be included in a supplement to the Register on form RFA2 (pdf). You can make this application at any time, but in order to be included in the supplement used at an election, your application must be received by your local authority at least 15 days before polling day (Sundays, public holidays and Good Friday are not counted as days for this purpose).

You can apply for inclusion on the supplement as a result of changing address on form RFA3 (pdf). This will also remove you from the register for your previous address.

This was publicised guys, only recently for the supplemental register.

Hotblack Desiato

LordSmeg wrote: »

So if I send in a registration form from this address with only my name on it I wipe everyone else in the house off the register ? Thats a bit shabby.

The only real alternative is to have a system like in several European countries, where you're obliged to inform 'teh man' every time you change address, on pain of a fine. No doubt there would be screaming about civil liberties if that was introduced here.

So if you don't want that, accept that it's your responsibility to make sure you're registered.

Technocentral

LordSmeg wrote: »

I dont recall anything here about registering again after the last election though. I dont even recall anything before that. Election or referendum comes around and voting slips arrive.

Ah yeah, sorry, if your living in the same place that you last voted in that shouldn't happen, when I moved to Milltown I did actually send in a new form but never got a card so checked the online register and wasn't on it, they said they never received my application, so now whenever a vote is announced I check register straight away, that way I have enough time to be on the supplementary if needs be.

xoxyx

paddy0090 wrote: »

It's not the rules that scare me it's further access to the ESM. There's 7 months left to see out the year without putting money into one of the banks. If we get access to it I think it'll be the 4th year in a row we throw good money into failed institutions. The EU still has no rules for winding up failed banks so govt.s are free to prop them up indefinitely with taxpayers cash. And we all know how the ECB feels about burning bondholders so they'll have plenty of supporters for such action. For whatever reason you voted yes did this not scare you?

Last year all talk of a second bailout was rubbished. The govt. were commited to reducing spending and balancing the books. Now with the ESM on the horizon they're slowly changing their position to "we really need this mechanism".

Mathew Elderfield said today that the banks need 3 to 4 billion to meet new capital requirement rules. This after we "overcapitalized" them last year. Yes I know Rabbitte dismissed this as something further down the road referring to when the banks will be profitable.....yeah when the banks will be profitable.

I hear what you're saying, and I know why you're saying it. But tell me how a no vote will make things better. Realistically now - not just the shapes in the clouds that the no'ers want to see. If do not enter into this Treaty, we not only lose our low interest rate loans, we also lose a fair bit of credibility, which will make any further loans even harder to secure and at much higher interest rates. We need to look past immediate solutions (which don't exist). The no voters' policy is bad economics - short term gains will lead to long term losses.

paddy0090 wrote: »

Who is this we? I didn't and I know plenty of people who didn't. Some people I know actually bought houses because they were afraid they wouldn't be able to in the future if they waited any longer. You're definitely right about a sizeable minority and I'm guessing your one of them.

"We" are the Irish people. I don't think you can argue that many of us went a bit cash-happy during the boom years. Maybe you and your friends never got caught up in the frenzy. Maybe none of you ever took a short term loan to do up a house or to go on holiday. Maybe you never got paid inflated wages and thought this was a standard to set your earning power by. Maybe you never found it hard to get a job, difficult to secure a mortgage, or had an issue if you needed to claim the dole.

If so, you must be hanging out with a fair unusual bunch!

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't see too many advocating a break with Europe, I do see many who want out of the Eurozone, because it isn't working. What the EU did for us in the past is not the point, the EEC/EU was set up to bring prosperity to ALL, the richer member states knew that that was the price of greater trading links etc. It's the future that matters to most people and that looks very bleak if a halt isn't called to the failure that is the Euro and if all member states aren't made to take responsibility in the crisis, everyone played their part in the crisis happening. Don't let the Yes side con you on that score.

What the EU did for us in the past is very much the point. It has been good for us so far. It will be good for us again. In fact, it is good for us now!! The EU has helped its member States through many a crisis - but we only hear about it when it goes wrong. It's still a relatively new institution. It's going to hit its bumps. But I would like Ireland to be part of the European Union in 2112 when it really hits its stride!

Happyman42

xoxyx wrote: »

What the EU did for us in the past is very much the point. It has been good for us so far. It will be good for us again. In fact, it is good for us now!! The EU has helped its member States through many a crisis - but we only hear about it when it goes wrong. It's still a relatively new institution. It's going to hit its bumps. But I would like Ireland to be part of the European Union in 2112 when it really hits its stride!

It only took 10yrs for the Euro to potentially bring the EU down it is so flawed. The Treaty is a patch on the Euro and the crisis, too little, too late. Continuing down this road will only deepen the crisis and the pain of doing what has to be done. I think a No vote could be seen as helping Europe if it knocks the heads together. Cruel to be kind.

starviewadams

Was all the usual suspects backing the Yes vote,the liars in FG and Labour,the corrupt country ruining members of FF,and the gombeen unions in the papers urging their members to vote Yes.

At least there was a diverse group supporting a No vote,not just the golden circle members looking to keep their snouts in the trough at any cost,like those backing a Yes vote.

Happyman42

Phil Hogan and Enda; disappeared for the duration of the canvass, they are so anathema to voters. Polls only closed for an hour and Hogan is on the telly spouting like the Equaliser!
These people must take us for complete saps.

Mal-Adjusted

ninja900 wrote: »

Did someone else in the house return a registration form without you on it?

It's not surprising though that local authorities screw things up. The voting register should be compiled centrally and require a PPSN.

Bet you'll pay attention the next time the 'check the register' ads are on radio and TV though!

ha, damn right I will. it just seems so bloody strange, iv'e never changed address so I don't understand why i'd even be taken off of it. ah well, they say it can come down to a single vote but it never does

dvpower

Exit poll showing a YES

https://twitter.com/#!/tconnellyRTE

paddy0090

xoxyx wrote: »

I hear what you're saying, and I know why you're saying it. But tell me how a no vote will make things better. Realistically now - not just the shapes in the clouds that the no'ers want to see. If do not enter into this Treaty, we not only lose our low interest rate loans, we also lose a fair bit of credibility, which will make any further loans even harder to secure and at much higher interest rates. We need to look past immediate solutions (which don't exist). The no voters' policy is bad economics - short term gains will lead to long term losses.

A no will force the governement to behave responsibily and balance the books. With an election due at the end of a second bailout there's no telling what kind of sh*t they're liable to try and pull after 5+ years of austerity. We managed our finacnes better trying to get into the euro than when we were in it! I've said this elsewhere but they've failed on expenses and capping advisors pay. 2 things directly within their complete control slipping away within the year!

You're right about much of the No camp, but not all. I think the ULA are a gang of wingnuts, can't stand Sinn Fein or the parish pump indos. I'm more scared of them with access to the ESM then the current lot.

I sympathise with the Germans trying to intro some discipline(that for the most part is already there in the growth and stability pact) but I think it's the wrong policy and won't make much of a difference to the current situation. Stability isn't always a good thing; Egypt used to be stable; Libya used to be stable

The last part is exactly my point. If they(or the next govt. possibly Sinn Fein)can get a hold of more cheap money there's no telling what they might do.

"We" are the Irish people. I don't think you can argue that many of us went a bit cash-happy during the boom years. Maybe you and your friends never got caught up in the frenzy. Maybe none of you ever took a short term loan to do up a house or to go on holiday. Maybe you never got paid inflated wages and thought this was a standard to set your earning power by. Maybe you never found it hard to get a job, difficult to secure a mortgage, or had an issue if you needed to claim the dole.

If so, you must be hanging out with a fair unusual bunch!

!

Oh my frends and I are different are we? I know all those people you've mentioned and I've had a couple of those problems myself. You forgot people who took the extra work that was going (there was always extra work). Look the point was that the Bertie line was BS. We didn't all party, we didn't all live up and forget the future. You'll probably find many are now bankrupt because they were planning for the future. Others were just plain living in the future -with the credit card.

14% unemployed is only 14% of 100%. It's not a majority of we the Irish people. I could make the same argument about mortgage arrears. I'm sure that seems harsh, I wouldn't blame the whole lot of them for their predicament. They got screwed by an unaccountable elite and a pliant and sizeable minority!

Ozymandius2011

dvpower wrote: »

Exit poll showing a YES

https://twitter.com/#!/tconnellyRTE

Not this again. What seems to have happened is that this originated from a Reuters report where govt sources told them that a 60/40 result was indicated in a secret govt poll. It was reported by Bruno Waterfield on 30th May that there was such a "secret government poll". This was then confused by Reuters with an 'exit poll'. David McCullagh of RTE has tweeted that to his knowledge no company has carried out such a poll.

Dublin Red Devil

I voted No. The reason why? Because I really didn't understand what I would be saying yes too