Is Anonymous an Illegal/Terroriost Organization in Ireland?

drunkmonkey

Just curious in Ireland do organization have to be classified as Illegal or Terrorist, i.e the name of that group defined. Like we have the IRA, it would be illegal to be a member of them.
I presume being a member of Anonymous has not be classified as Illegal or Terrorist here no more than freemen have been.

So my question is would I be breaking the law by being a member or helping Anonymous in Ireland? I'm not by the way.

Paulw

drunkmonkey wrote: »

So my question is would I be breaking the law by being a member or helping Anonymous in Ireland? I'm not by the way.

I would guess that a lot would depend on how you are "helping" them, and that action of "helping" may or may not be illegal.

drunkmonkey

Paulw wrote: »

I would guess that a lot would depend on how you are "helping" them, and that action of "helping" may or may not be illegal.

Anyone can help them easily, you just download a little program and run it, it's very simple and requires you not to be very computer literate. I presume none of that is illegal?

You've missed my question though. Are they illegal in Ireland, can I be a member without fear or prosecution in Ireland as the current law stands?

28064212

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Anyone can help them easily, you just download a little program and run it, it's very simple and requires you not to be very computer literate. I presume none of that is illegal?

And what does that little program do? If it contributes to illegal activity then you might be prosecutable. Driving a car isn't illegal, but driving a getaway car for a bank robbery is (even if you haven't broken any traffic laws, in which case you're the worst getaway driver EVER!)

MagicSean

Only the IRA are a terrorist organisation under the offences against the state legislation afaik.

drunkmonkey

MagicSean wrote: »

Only the IRA are a terrorist organisation under the offences against the state legislation afaik.

So there's no crime in Ireland as it stands in helping or being a member of Anonymous?

drunkmonkey

28064212 wrote: »

And what does that little program do? If it contributes to illegal activity then you might be prosecutable.

Where does it say it's illegal?

28064212

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Where does it say it's illegal?

What? I'm saying that if the program is part of (for example) a distributed hacking attempt, then you could be prosecuted.

Avatargh

There is also the possibility of copyright infringement since quite of lot of their supposedly original high sounding talk about liberty is taken directly from "V for Vendetta".

Avatargh

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Just curious in Ireland do organization have to be classified as Illegal or Terrorist, i.e the name of that group defined. Like we have the IRA, it would be illegal to be a member of them.
I presume being a member of Anonymous has not be classified as Illegal or Terrorist here no more than freemen have been.

So my question is would I be breaking the law by being a member or helping Anonymous in Ireland? I'm not by the way.

Easy answer. Don't help anyone hack anything.

drunkmonkey

28064212 wrote: »

What? I'm saying that if the program is part of (for example) a distributed hacking attempt, then you could be prosecuted.

Under what law? A DOS Attack(modern day protest) wouldn't be hacking, your just requesting access which is free and anyone is allowed do it. It's like someone ringin your doorbell more than once.

28064212

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Under what law? A DOS Attack(modern day protest) wouldn't be hacking, your just requesting access which is free and anyone is allowed do it. It's like someone ringin your doorbell more than once.

Neither of us mentioned a DOS attack (although I don't know if they're legal).

I said if the distributed program contributed to a larger illegal activity (whatever that might be) then you could be prosecutable. The question of DOS legality is a separate issue

drunkmonkey

But it's not an illegal activity in Ireland, there's no such law. So therefore going on that logic it's not illegal to be a member or help them.

28064212

drunkmonkey wrote: »

But it's not an illegal activity in Ireland, there's no such law. So therefore going on that logic it's not illegal to be a member or help them.

What's not an illegal activity?!?! You haven't said what the program does

IF it's a program that contributes to a DOS, and IF there's no law against being part of a DOS attack (you'd want to be fairly sure of that), then no, you won't be prosecuted.

Paulw

drunkmonkey wrote: »

But it's not an illegal activity in Ireland, there's no such law. So therefore going on that logic it's not illegal to be a member or help them.

Good luck using that when you get to court. :rolleyes:

Being a member, not illegal.
Doing something to cause a company harm (using DDOS), most likely illegal, depending on what law they envoke to prosecute you.
Helping someone hack a company, definitely illegal.

drunkmonkey

Paulw wrote: »

Good luck using that when you get to court. :rolleyes:

Being a member, not illegal.
Doing something to cause a company harm (using DDOS), most likely illegal, depending on what law they envoke to prosecute you.
Helping someone hack a company, definitely illegal.

No harm is done, nothing gets broken. Nobody is injured and it couldn't be considered hacking. So what law can I be arrested under?

There is no law to say I can't hit F5 as many times as I want when i'm on any website. That's a DOS attack if ye all helped me.

Gillo

Surely, knowing help someone disrupt the legimate business of another party will be covered by the law.
By comparison, it's not illegal for one person to walk down the road, get a few hundred to do it at the same time and you need permits etc. getting loads of people to access the same site at the same time with a few to crashing it, it's got to be illegal.

drunkmonkey

There next attack isn't direct, there shutting down the whole interent with mass DOS. So who would be the victim? To be honest shutting down the internet for 24hrs could be a good thing.

Back to the original question though, there doesn't seem to be anything illegal about it. You may be of the opinion it should be illegal but there doesn't seem to be any laws around it.

Side question here but could a Garda ask me to remove my Anonymous mask, have they any right to demand it?

Gillo

What do you mean who'd be the victim?
Disregarding, people who use the web for pleasure, have you any idea how many people use it for work / commercial use?

What's their "legimate" excuse for shutting down the internet?

Paulw

There was a thread here, which quoted a number of laws that could be used to prosecute for a DDOS.

A targeted attack against anyone is an illegal act.

And you have to target someone (or multiple companies) to "shut down the internet".

Paulw

Gillo wrote: »

What's their "legimate" excuse for shutting down the internet?

Terrorism comes to mind.

drunkmonkey

Gillo wrote: »

What do you mean who'd be the victim?
Disregarding, people who use the web for pleasure, have you any idea how many people use it for work / commercial use?

What's their "legimate" excuse for shutting down the internet?

Paulw wrote: »

Terrorism comes to mind.

Ok I get you, they have to attack 10 businesses to shut down the internet so they would be the victims. None of them are Irish or have operation here so I don't see how they would be protected under Irish law.

As for the people using the internet for pleasure, there going to be doing it on a saturday so i'm sure they can find something else to amuse themselves for a few hours.

Their excuse is it's a protest. Which most of us agree with.

MagicSean

Paulw wrote: »

There was a thread here, which quoted a number of laws that could be used to prosecute for a DDOS.

A targeted attack against anyone is an illegal act.

And you have to target someone (or multiple companies) to "shut down the internet".

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76718071

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ok I get you, they have to attack 10 businesses to shut down the internet so they would be the victims. None of them are Irish or have operation here so I don't see how they would be protected under Irish law.

As for the people using the internet for pleasure, there going to be doing it on a saturday so i'm sure they can find something else to amuse themselves for a few hours.

Their excuse is it's a protest. Which most of us agree with.

**** that. Who are they to decide what i should do on my day off?

drunkmonkey

MagicSean wrote: »

**** that. Who are they to decide what i should do on my day off?

It's for your own good. Interent is bad for you.

MagicSean

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's for your own good. Interent is bad for you.

So what exactly is there point? I thought they were about freedoms.

Gillo

Sorry, if it's the weekend that ok, I mean who uses the internet for commercial use at the weekend?

What are they protesting about and what authority do they claim?

Paulw

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ok I get you, they have to attack 10 businesses to shut down the internet so they would be the victims. None of them are Irish or have operation here so I don't see how they would be protected under Irish law.

As for the people using the internet for pleasure, there going to be doing it on a saturday so i'm sure they can find something else to amuse themselves for a few hours.

Their excuse is it's a protest. Which most of us agree with.

Excuse? Yeah. Maybe they (Anonymous) should go and do something else on Saturday, like get off their computers and go out and get some fresh air?

You would be surprised how many companies do business in Ireland, and have registration here, which they can use to prosecute, and hopefully they will find and prosecute those involved.

Protest is one thing, terrorism is another.

28064212

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ok I get you, they have to attack 10 businesses to shut down the internet so they would be the victims. None of them are Irish or have operation here so I don't see how they would be protected under Irish law.

As for the people using the internet for pleasure, there going to be doing it on a saturday so i'm sure they can find something else to amuse themselves for a few hours.

Their excuse is it's a protest. Which most of us agree with.

In the UK, you can get up to 10 years for a DOS attack. Whether there's similar legislation here, I don't know.

It's not illegal to drive your car around a town. If you get a thousand of your friends to descend on a town and fill it up with traffic for the sole purpose of disrupting normal life in the town, you could be prosecuted

drunkmonkey

@Paulw, correct and right. I don't see how hitting F5 could be in any way considered terrorism. Terrorism would generally mean that a natural person is being hurt in some way. There is no one getting injured in this instance. So it's not Terrorism by any stretch of the imagination. Bullying maybe a little but terrorism no.

@28064212, it's a peaceful protest that will actually enhance towns for the few hours the internet is shut down. No harm done to anyone and a boost for your local economy if done through business hours.

RandolphEsq

Anonymous aren't a group. Anonymous is just that those who do an act do it 'anonymously'.

28064212

drunkmonkey wrote: »

@28064212, it's a peaceful protest that will actually enhance towns for the few hours the internet is shut down. No harm done to anyone and a boost for your local economy if done through business hours.

And yet the local businesses would disagree.

Would you agree with a human chain doing a "peaceful protest" across O'Connell St that brings the city to a standstill? What about a couple of hundred of cars taking every space within 3 miles of your house, on the basis that it would be good for you if you can't get home and have to go out and "enjoy" your time outside?

drunkmonkey

28064212 wrote: »

And yet the local businesses would disagree.

Would you agree with a human chain doing a "peaceful protest" across O'Connell St that brings the city to a standstill? What about a couple of hundred of cars taking every space within 3 miles of your house, on the basis that it would be good for you if you can't get home and have to go out and "enjoy" your time outside?

Bricks and Mortar stores without an online presence would be over the moon if the internet shut down on one of the best shopping day of the week. How much money is flying out of Ireland every day due to online shopping that's never coming back.

A protest in O'Connell street is a boost to dublin traders. A protest that shuts down the internet is a boost to 99% of small Irish business in every city, town and village on the Island.

28064212

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Bricks and Mortar stores without an online presence would be over the moon if the internet shut down on one of the best shopping day of the week. How much money is flying out of Ireland every day due to online shopping that's never coming back.

A protest in O'Connell street is a boost to dublin traders. A protest that shuts down the internet is a boost to 99% of small Irish business in every city, town and village on the Island.

Which small Irish businesses are these exactly? People shop online for items they don't need right now, so waiting another day or two is not going to make a difference. In the meantime, you're going to cripple Irish businesses who do rely on the internet. Not to mention making Ireland a less attractive place for foreign investors who aren't going to want to invest somewhere with an unreliable internet infrastructure.

Your question was on the legal side, and it's been answered. No, Anonymous are not an illegal organisation. If you perform illegal acts, you can be prosecuted. You seem to be sure DOS attacks aren't illegal, so you've got nothing to worry about

drunkmonkey

It's not Ireland it's the world. 0 impact on foreign investment. There knocking out the the whole internet in one swoop on saturday might be only for a few minutes but it looks like it's going to happen.
I will be having no part in it, i'm justing wondering about the legality of someone from Ireland being involved.

If something isn't written into law (in Ireland) as illegal, does that make it legal? That answers the other question.

28064212

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If something isn't written into law (in Ireland) as illegal, does that make it legal?

It makes it legal in Ireland. If you break a US law (or any other country), which such an action certainly would, they can bar you from entering the US, or arrest you when you attempt to enter. You can't be extradited if it's not a crime here.

How confident are you it's not a crime here?

drunkmonkey

Don't presume theres any law covering it, so its hardly illegal. Its not something that can be controlled so theres not much point creating laws around it, anyone with a unregistered pre pay internet sim card will never be traced. A lot of laws would need changing to really stop the crime if it was to become one.

28064212

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Don't presume theres any law covering it, so its hardly illegal. Its not something that can be controlled so theres not much point creating laws around it, anyone with a unregistered pre pay internet sim card will never be traced. A lot of laws would need changing to really stop the crime if it was to become one.

They really wouldn't. Did you read the article on the UK legislation I posted above? This is specifically written for DOS attacks

The 2006 Act expands the 1990 Act's provisions on unauthorised modification of computer material to criminalise someone who does an unauthorised act in relation to a computer with "the requisite intent" and "the requisite knowledge."

The requisite intent is an intent to do the act in question and by so doing:

1. to impair the operation of any computer,
2. to prevent or hinder access to any program or data held in any computer
3. to impair the operation of any program or data held in any computer

MagicSean

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Don't presume theres any law covering it, so its hardly illegal. Its not something that can be controlled so theres not much point creating laws around it, anyone with a unregistered pre pay internet sim card will never be traced. A lot of laws would need changing to really stop the crime if it was to become one.

There is a law for it. The only problem in prosecuting is proving intent and knowledge

Gillo

drunkmonkey wrote: »

@Paulw, correct and right. I don't see how hitting F5 could be in any way considered terrorism. Terrorism would generally mean that a natural person is being hurt in some way. There is no one getting injured in this instance. So it's not Terrorism by any stretch of the imagination. Bullying maybe a little but terrorism no.

If I don't have internet access, I can't do my job (sales) if I can't sell, I don't earn commission. So physically it's not harming me yet financially it is. My company cant sell so it's affecting profits, which affect individuals salary & bonus'. I'm just one person, working for one company, there's a lot of people like me. It's an act of terrorism, admittedly a pretty crap and cowardly one at least Al Quada have to balls to a/ blow themselves up and b/ not hide behind a stupid mask.
(Just for the record I'm not say Al Quada are right in what they do)

Kef

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Anyone can help them easily, you just download a little program and run it, it's very simple and requires you not to be very computer literate.

I think what you mean there is that it requires you to be computer illiterate, installing a small program that you don't know what it does and really where its from isn't a clever practise. If you think it is then give me 20 minutes, I'll send you a little program and then all I ask is that you log into a few websites, maybe enter your credit card details I promise you it'll all be for a good cause

RandolphEsq

"We are Anonymous.
We are Legion.
We do not Forgive.
We do not Forget.
You know who you are, Expect us."

Some people watch too much sci-fi :rolleyes:

chops018

Surprised no one has mentioned article 39 of the constitution.

"Treason shall consist only in levying war against the State, or assisting any State or person or inciting or conspiring with any person to levy war against the State, or attempting by force of arms or other violent means to overthrow the organs of government established by this Constitution, or taking part or being concerned in or inciting or conspiring with any person to make or to take part or be concerned in any such attempt."

Helping anonymous do such an activity that overthrows an organ of the government could be considered treason, and treason could have resulted in the death penalty until such a penalty was abolished

johnnyskeleton

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Paulw wrote: »

Good luck using that when you get to court. :rolleyes:

Being a member, not illegal.
Doing something to cause a company harm (using DDOS), most likely illegal, depending on what law they envoke to prosecute you.
Helping someone hack a company, definitely illegal.

No harm is done, nothing gets broken. Nobody is injured and it couldn't be considered hacking. So what law can I be arrested under?

There is no law to say I can't hit F5 as many times as I want when i'm on any website. That's a DOS attack if ye all helped me.

It would seem to be a fairly obvious instance of dishonestly using a computer to causes loss to another:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0009.html#sec9