Reusing glass bottles

Khannie

I'm wondering if this logic holds:

I have a nice sanitised glass bottle. I put cider in it. It ages. All very clean. I open the bottle, pour out my drink, then rinse the bottle thoroughly immediately. Is this enough to then reuse it next time around? Or do I have to go through the whole sanitation process again?

BeerNut

Sanitise again. I wouldn't expect anything to stay sanitary for more than about an hour's exposure to the air. Bear in mind also that if the tap water you're rinsing with was sanitary no-one would ever need sanitiser

Khannie

Boo. I find that a really tiresome process, especially if you're doing larger batches. It can take nearly all night between sanitising, then rinsing the smell off, then bottling.

I was wondering that about the tap water alright. I thought that it might be just "good enough" given that a bunch of alcohol was going into it though.

I may test it with a small amount of bottles next time around and see if any spoiling happens unless you think this is likely to cause digestive issues that my nose and / or tastebuds wont be able to prevent.

BeerNut

Khannie wrote: »

It can take nearly all night between sanitising, then rinsing the smell off, then bottling.

Use a no-rinse sanitiser. Get better vessels in which to sanitise. Always Be Improving Your System!

Khannie wrote: »

I thought that it might be just "good enough" given that a bunch of alcohol was going into it though.

Wild yeasts and acetobacter bare their microscopic buttocks at your theory and ask for more alcohol.

Khannie wrote: »

unless you think this is likely to cause digestive issues that my nose and / or tastebuds wont be able to prevent.

Nah: you'll taste an infection, or hear the explosions before that. People have making cider for millennia before there was sanitisation, you might be fine without. It's not recommended though.

Khannie

No-rinse sanitiser you say?

/investigates

BeerNut

20L of water. Add 30ml thin bleach, 30ml vinegar. Done. Vary proportional amounts as desired. (I use an 80L trug on bottling day: 60L water, 90ml bleach, 90ml vinegar. All aboard!)

I'm sure this is in the majority of threads on this forum by now. If only there was some sort of way have "frequently asked questions" somehow stick to the top of the thread list...

Khannie

That's what I have used. It smells a bit though. I just assumed that I'd need to rinse it afterwards.

If you want to fire up an FAQ thread with some answers I'll happily ask the mods to sticky it (I'm capable, it's just not kosher ).

BeerNut

Khannie wrote: »

I just assumed that I'd need to rinse it afterwards.

You're unsanitising it with your filthy tap water!

Khannie

Ah I don't think the tap water is that filthy really. I've been drinking it for thirty something years with no ill effects. Hell....I even made some booze with it that I subsequently bottled. Sanitising the bottle, then rinsing with water isn't quite the same as just sanitising with tap water.

Shiny

Switching to Star San was an ENORMOUS time saver for me.

I use VWP when built up stuff needs to be removed with a soak.

sharingan

There are certain time saving features that can really help when it comes to sanitising.

Your choice of bottle/container makes a difference. Any bottle that you can sterilise and then seal, will stay sterilised until use. So that includes:

* swing top bottles
* plastic screwcaps (as long as you use all the one kind of bottle, or can easily associate which caps go with which bottle types)
* reusable corks with bottles
* regular glass bottles with their necks wrapped in cling film.

I tend to use a big gardening basket (about 60L) from Wilkinsons to do batch sterilisation, then store the sealed bottles for later use.

Wash bottles straight after use.

Another time honoured sterilisation trick is the trusty dishwasher. 30 minutes on the hottest cycle with no detergent and everything is nicely sterile. Its also nicer on our water supplies, if that is a factor where you live.

The biggest issue with re-using bottles or fermenters is when they are not thoroughly clean from last use. The dirt stuck to the sides is highly nutricious to all the nasties that you do not want in your brew - they harbour them and allow them to get a foothold in your ferment. All of my fermenting disasters are down to this problem.

I have done some fairly wild ferments before - dumped ginger cultures that were exposed for weeks, straight into fermenters with no negative consequences. Also purely wild elderflower brews.

leggit

Khannie wrote: »

That's what I have used. It smells a bit though. I just assumed that I'd need to rinse it afterwards.

If you want to fire up an FAQ thread with some answers I'll happily ask the mods to sticky it (I'm capable, it's just not kosher ).

No-rinse sanitiser means you don't need to rinse

I've used this method for all my brews except for the first one (used milton and got lucky I couldn't taste it!) and never rinsed afterwards, just pour out the solution and begin brewing. Worked perfectly everytime!

Lars

Khannie wrote: »

Boo. I find that a really tiresome process, especially if you're doing larger batches. It can take nearly all night between sanitising, then rinsing the smell off, then bottling..

buy yourself one of these http://www.thehomebrewcompany.ie/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_24&products_id=580&zenid=351a600aae866a369f03c0a18d07ff3e
One of the best things I invested in, speeded up my bottling day dramatically, dont know how/why I ever managed without it.. I make up 1 litre of diy no rinse sanitizer. The correct volumes from the original podcast on the brewing network are, if I remember correctly, 5gallons water to 1oz thin bleach and 1oz vinegar. Theyre US measurements so its 18.92L water and 29.57ml of each of the others. I scale it down to slightly less than 1litre/1.5ml/1.5ml . Use a syringe to measure the 1.5mls About 1/2 this goes in the rinser and each bottle gets doused in it and then onto the bottling tree. By the time theyre all rinsed start filling from the first bottle that went onto the tree. This stuff needs about 30seconds contact time which it gets when drip drying. I used to fill a bucket and dunk each bottle which was a major chore compared to how I do it now. It took ages just to make up the large volume of sanitizing solution.
This thread is well worth a read:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/bottling-tips-homebrewer-94812/
I'm currently trying to make up a dip tube for my bottling bucket to get that last 500ml out of it....

L

Khannie

That's a great thread you linked. Thanks for that.

That rinser definitely looks like it would take a heap load of the hassle out of it. Coupled with a no-rinse sanitiser I think I could more than halve the time I spend doing it. I probably wont kick off another brew for a while now though. I have quite a bit in the bottle (actually around the 60L mark now that I think about it). It'll take me a while to get through that I think / hope.

rubadub

Khannie wrote: »

Ah I don't think the tap water is that filthy really.

I don't either, I top up the dissolved kits with it before fermenting without filtering or boiling. We are just sanitising, not sterilizing, which is a whole other ball game. The moment you open the cap of a properly sterile bottle in a kitchen you can be pretty sure you have contaminants landing in it. This is well know to amateur scientists/microbiologists/mycologists which really do need sterility.

I used to really only bleach out barrels/bottles with dried on yeasts, most bottles I used to just rinse out and never had any trouble.

Are there any people here who used to just rinse with water and had many problems with infections? And do you think it was due to the bottles?

I expect many have just always sanitised and just continue doing it. Even if I did lose a few bottles I would have to weigh up what it really cost me, a few pence, perhaps not worth the time, effort & money for better sanitising.

I have seen videos of people going overkill on 'sterilising' bottles, harping on about the importance and then having a wide open fermenter with massive surface area exposed while syphoning.

Khannie

I'm convinced (by the laziness of it all). I'll try some washed, but not sanitised bottles with my next batch and see how I get on, though buying one of those bottle rinser things would probably make it about equivalent effort.

Sky King

Khannie wrote: »

Ah I don't think the tap water is that filthy really.

Neither do I but boy howdy does it taste like sh**e.

I bring my keggle out to the parents gaff in the sticks and fill up out there

Ronan cork

I'd a lad in the bar the other day tell me he gave up brewing because there was a chemical taste of his brews...after a few questions I found out he was "sanitising" with dish washer detergent! Literally crumbling a finish oxy action into his fermenter full of warm water and giving it a quick rinse after!
He'd since distroyed his gear to make a Halloween costume...

Khannie

That's shocking Ronan.

Sky King wrote: »

Neither do I but boy howdy does it taste like sh**e.

I bring my keggle out to the parents gaff in the sticks and fill up out there

An oul' brita filter takes the filth out of it. We brita'd the water we used when starting the wine brew. Really noticeable in tea and coffee too if you drink them.

Ideally I would like to get a reverse osmosis filter. Not sure if you've ever tasted it, but it is....shockingly pure. Would be perfect for brewing purposes. They're pricey though. 300+ if memory serves.

Philburns

We have a reverse osmosis and a couple of other filters under our sink connected to the drinking tap, I highly recommend it for purity. However when making beer I always have to remember to start filling 2 litre bottles with water the day beforehand otherwise the storage tanks runs dry and it takes ages to refill itself.

rubadub

Khannie wrote: »

Ideally I would like to get a reverse osmosis filter. Not sure if you've ever tasted it, but it is....shockingly pure.

It can be too pure and actually cause corrosion in metal tanks. It will take out minerals so can make it taste too pure, some people have devices to add minerals back in.

Also I think most systems waste a fair bit of water, i.e. you have to use X amount of water to extract Y amount of water out of it. When the water charges are in place it could prove very expensive.

sharingan

rubadub wrote: »

I used to really only bleach out barrels/bottles with dried on yeasts, most bottles I used to just rinse out and never had any trouble.

Are there any people here who used to just rinse with water and had many problems with infections? And do you think it was due to the bottles?

I have seen videos of people going overkill on 'sterilising' bottles, harping on about the importance and then having a wide open fermenter with massive surface area exposed while syphoning.

Dried on yeasts are a big problem in your fermenter. I have a had a couple of bad mistakes when reusing a fermenter that wasn't fully cleaned.

I find bottles in general much easier to clean, sanitise and then seal. Which allows me to trust them. But I am fastidious about cleaning the fermenter.

Also bottle conditioning and carbonation is a sanitising technique - the active yeast will use up all the O2, and any bacteria can't metabolise. Thats why the wide open fermenter technique will work.