The New Multicultural Ireland - The Benefits?

IrishAm

Bambi wrote: »

Why not trot out the previous classic from this line of thinking?
"When economy slows down they'll all go back home"

:pac:

Sure, we were told that they werent going to come in the first place!

There is no reason to believe... that large numbers of workers will wish to come" [Minister for Europe Dick Roche, I.T. Letters, 12/7/2002].


"Ireland will be in precisely the same position as all other member states on the question of free movement following any enlargement of the Community".
[Dick Roche, as reported in the Irish Times, September 2002].


"It is the view of the Irish Government and a number of other governments that this idea that there is going to be a huge influx of immigrants is just not supported. The evidence is just not there for it. They are not going to flood to the west. The same rules are going to apply in all 15 states. There is no evidence to suggest that the people of the Czech Republic or Poland are less anxious to stay in their home as we are. [Dick Roche, transcript of interview with The Irish Catholic, 19/9/2002].


"It is a deliberate misrepresentation to suggest that tens of thousands will suddenly descend en masse on Ireland." [Proinsias De Rossa, I.T. Letters, 28/8/2002].


"I estimate that fewer than 2,000 will choose our distant shores each year".
[P. De Rossa, I. T. Letters, 20/8/2002].

Poland's minister for European affairs said in Dublin yesterday that a second Irish No to the Nice Treaty would be "a huge and terrible disappointment" for Poles...

Poles did most of their migration in the past decade and there is no potential for a new outflow. "They are returning home for new work opportunities; it is even difficult to get them to move between different regions of their own country when these become available." Sunday Independent, 2002.



"There is no evidence there would be a problem with free movement of workers on accession".. (Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, Dail Eireann, 10/9/2002].


"Efforts have been made to foment fears that migrants from the new member states could flock to Ireland. This is not only unpleasant but plainly wrong."
[Brian Cowen, Sunday Business Post, 7/7/2000].


"Ireland is already benefiting from the skills and energy of workers from the applicant states, about 7,000 of whom received work permits last year. There is no basis whatever for expecting a huge upsurge in these numbers."
[Brian Cowen, Sunday Business Post, 7/7/2000].


"The second myth is that the Nice Treaty will mean mass immigration from the new EU member countries in Eastern Europe. This is probably the most odious of the myths propagated by some in the "No" campaign."
[Minister Willie O'Dea, Sunday Independent, Summer 2002].

K-9

Reading the local paper and the "50 years ago today" bit, the Council were discussing "Donegal jobs for Donegal" people!

The King of Moo

IrishAm wrote: »

It already is high. It went from 2-17% in a decade. No other nation has experienced such a dramatic change in their foreign born population since world war 2.

None.

Its never happened in modern times before.

I have shown you that the figures continue to rise.

You somehow think this will just suddenly stop even though the evidence points to the contrary.

Amazing.

Simply amazing.

Whom are these powerful political voices you speak of and how come they remained silent for the past decade?

Why do you assume it'll continue to rise? Just because it's been rising for the last while? Will it ever stop rising at all, do you think?

The reason there's no major political voices calling out for greater restrictions against immigrants is because we don't have a problem with immigrant workers. Despite the rise, it's still a fairly small number, most skilled migrant workers are working in areas which are lacking skilled Irish workers, and we have strong restrictions against unskilled non-EU workers.

If the number of migrant workers were a real problem you can bet there'd be populist calls for greater restrictions in order to keep on the electorate's side.

Bambi wrote: »

Why not trot out the previous classic from this line of thinking?
"When economy slows down they'll all go back home"

:pac:

I'd say "when the economy picks up, we'll all stop leaving the country, and be less likely to complain about the small number of immigrants working menial jobs."

Itwasntme.

Grayson wrote: »

The second someone starts using the phrase "brothers" i get scared.

:pac: I read that and thought, yeah, I should start looking into transferring to a different college in a different country.:D Although I should probably hook myself up with an Irish passport via the fake marriage route before I skip town.:rolleyes:

Seachmall

IrishAm wrote: »

Eventually, Ireland, as we know it, would be no more.

I'm struggling to find an issue with that.

Every generation views the next generation's culture as a bastardisation to some degree or another. And it is, but that doesn't mean it's worse. The generation who grow up in an Ireland where there are plenty of foreign workers will see that as a full, mixed and extraordinary culture worth preserving because that's all they'll know.

So the argument "to preserve culture" is another one that doesn't win any votes with me.


It's also irrelevant because I never suggested anything that would lead to that conclusion.

stevedublin

The King of Moo wrote: »

Why? How would you change things?

Do you write Leaving Cert English or job interview questions?
Discuss.

The King of Moo

stevedublin wrote: »

Do you write Leaving Cert English or job interview questions?
Discuss.

That's a non sequitur.
Your question demands a yes or no answer, so it can't really be discussed.

Maglight

IrishAm wrote: »

If it is so small, show me another example of a western country, post world war two, whose foreign population rose from 2% to 17% in a decade.

The rest of your post is extremely naive.

Out of interest, are any of your family living abroad?

conorhal

Seachmall wrote: »

I'm struggling to find an issue with that.

Every generation views the next generation's culture as a bastardisation to some degree or another. And it is, but that doesn't mean it's worse. The generation who grow up in an Ireland where there are plenty of foreign workers will see that as a full, mixed and extraordinary culture worth preserving because that's all they'll know.

So the argument "to preserve culture" is another one that doesn't win any votes with me.


It's also irrelevant because I never suggested anything that would lead to that conclusion.

You sound like Thatcher declaring 'society is dead'. It is of course, the only culture the venial Irish respect these days is the culture of capital.

What I find particularly hilarious is that the same multiculturalists that sneer at the thought of any hegomonic cultural expression by Irish people get quite upset when anybody else's culture gets trampled by capitalism. They tut about how they 'self discovery' in India has been sullied by backpackers and bars and praise the Parisians for maintaining their cafe and boulangere culture, and then proceed to sh1t all over any suggestion that Irish culture is something that people should pay any heed to let alone express any pride in.

Dyr

Maglight wrote: »

Out of interest, are any of your family living abroad?

Lads, you're gonna have to attack the post rather than the poster sooner or later. This blow in from Stormfront or wherever has even been linking his points to stats from the CSO no less. Needs rebuttal pronto boys.

smash

We could have a great basketball team in a few years!

Seachmall

conorhal wrote: »

You sound like Thatcher declaring 'society is dead'.

Except for the part where I didn't declare "society is dead", didn't imply "society is dead", nor even mentioned anything remotely related to society and it's mortality.

then proceed to sh1t all over any suggestion that Irish culture is something that people should pay any heed to let alone express any pride in.

Well if you're going to suggest legislation be introduced, amended or removed with regards to what people can or can't do you better have something more solid than "When I was young...!"

Ghost Buster

Clareboy wrote: »

Speaking as a middle aged unemployed Irish male - I am sick of listening to all these do-gooders talking about all the new communities and cultures that have established themselves in Ireland over the past 10 years. What's in it for me? How do I benefit from the New Multicultural Ireland? I would love if someone could tell me! Discuss!

What do you add to my society?
Whats in it for me?

JohnMarston

Ghost Buster wrote: »

What do you add to my society?
Whats in it for me?

You're part of the same society aren't you?

Nodin

smash wrote: »

We could have a great basketball team in a few years!

....yes, giants will easily forsake their US careers for a job in the Irish league.

Ghost Buster

JohnMarston wrote: »

You're part of the same society aren't you?

Exactly. As are many of the people being discussed.

LordSutch

Clareboy wrote: »

The New Multicultural Ireland - The Benefits?

Healthier, stronger gene pool.

K-9

IrishAm wrote: »

Anyway, the relevant CSO date has shown us that whilst the number of Irish workers has decreased, the number of non EU citizens working has increased. This would suggest job displacement is common in the labour market.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/labourmarket/2011/qnhs_q42011.pdf

It's a 3,000 increase in a year, which is also the drop in the Welfare rate for non-nationals. It doesn't suggest job displacement either, new jobs are being created and it could be mostly these jobs they are getting, industry, catering and administration (whatever that is) are the growth areas, the rest seem to shows drops or little change.

UK nationals have a high welfare and non participation % for some reason!

IrishAm

K-9 wrote: »

It's a 3,000 increase in a year, which is also the drop in the Welfare rate for non-nationals. It doesn't suggest job displacement either, new jobs are being created and it could be mostly these jobs they are getting, industry, catering and administration (whatever that is) are the growth areas, the rest seem to shows drops or little change.

Can you back all this up, please.

K-9 wrote: »

UK nationals have a high welfare and non participation % for some reason!

Probably due to cross border welfare tourists.....

IrishAm

LordSutch wrote: »

Healthier, stronger gene pool.

Loadda bollix. Unless his lordship is under the impression that Irish people are genetically inferior?:eek:

K-9

IrishAm wrote: »

Can you back all this up, please.

It's my reading of the figures in the pdf you gave, same as your back up.

Probably due to cross border welfare tourists.....

Yeah, but still a very high non participation rate.

Sappa

IrishAm wrote: »

Multiculturalism in Ireland is a by product of mass immigration from the four corners of the globe.

It has everything to do with the unemployment statistics when, as I have shown, Irish citizens are behind accession state and non EU citizens in the employment pecking order.

What a load of rubbish,my wife is from outside the EU and has been turned down for plenty of jobs and an Irish candidate gets it,big deal.
Its the best person for the job unless you have connections.
Now these magic loopholes you spout on about can you please show me where they are as the total cost in getting a stamp 4 visa for my wife has cost us over 20k.
Im an Irish citizen and we got zero preferential assistance with her application,i doubt they are doing favors non Eu nationals you mention.
By the way do you just get into a little rage when you see mixed race couples as your sounding very bitter.

Phill Ewinn

IrishAm wrote: »

Loadda bollix. Unless his lordship is under the impression that Irish people are genetically inferior?:eek:

Bragging about gettig his hole with fordin' burds.

lividduck

IrishAm wrote: »

Loadda bollix. Unless his lordship is under the impression that Irish people are genetically inferior?:eek:

Your posts prove his point Anders oops

lividduck

Sappa wrote: »

What a load of rubbish,my wife is from outside the EU and has been turned down for plenty of jobs and an Irish candidate gets it,big deal.
Its the best person for the job unless you have connections.
Now these magic loopholes you spout on about can you please show me where they are as the total cost in getting a stamp 4 visa for my wife has cost us over 20k.
Im an Irish citizen and we got zero preferential assistance with her application,i doubt they are doing favors non Eu nationals you mention.
By the way do you just get into a little rage when you see mixed race couples as your sounding very bitter.

The problem is that IrishAM doesn't understand a very basic point , one reason for so many non-Irish nationals not losing their jobs is that they have a skill many employer including Paypal,Ebay,Google,Intel,Microsoft etc need, fluency in a forigen language! Of course Anders I mean IrishAM would contend that there are no end of Irish born fluent Norwegian,Arabic,Chinese etc speakers, or maybe he would prefer if these companies just relocated?

IrishAm

K-9 wrote: »

It's my reading of the figures in the pdf you gave, same as your back up.

You are reading them wrong and I meant for you to back up the welfare figures.

As for the other two geniuses, I have no issue with your wife living here and I have already explained, in great detail, the loopholes available. If you read up on it, you would be aware that if a non EU person marries an EU citizen, they have more rights than a non EU person whom marries an Irish citizen.

A non EU citizen, under EU legislation, is allowed live and work, wherever their EU spouse is exercising their EU treaty rights, i.e, working, studying, or job searching in an EU country not of their own.

Not so for non EU spouses of Irish citizens.

Atomicjuicer

IrishAm wrote: »

Loadda bollix. Unless his lordship is under the impression that Irish people are genetically inferior?:eek:

Whatever - the point is we need to spice it up.

Inbreeding only gets you so far!

Sappa

IrishAm wrote: »

You are reading them wrong and I meant for you to back up the welfare figures.

As for the other two geniuses, I have no issue with your wife living here and I have already explained, in great detail, the loopholes available. If you read up on it, you would be aware that if a non EU person marries an EU citizen, they have more rights than a non EU person whom marries an Irish citizen.

A non EU citizen, under EU legislation, is allowed live and work, wherever their EU spouse is exercising their EU treaty rights, i.e, working, studying, or job searching in an EU country not of their own.

Not so for non EU spouses of Irish citizens.

I will agree with you on one point here,we require a visa to travel to any other EU country on a holiday hence the lastminute holiday is out of our reach due to this clause,whilst a non EU national married to a Polish national living in Ireland does not need a visa to travel to most other EU countries as they are here on a stamp 4 family visa,but that`s a problem that should be dealt with by our govt and taken up with Europe as it discriminates but that`s for another day.

woodoo

IrishAm wrote: »

Loadda bollix. Unless his lordship is under the impression that Irish people are genetically inferior?:eek:

Its true we have a high insidence of inherited diseases. We could do with a wider gene pool. Plenty of blonde eastern eurpoean women is just what we need help in the beauty department too.

Robdude

I work for a US company with offices all over the world (and Dublin). I'm a US citizen. The company operates here because it's a lot cheaper than paying corporate taxes in the US. The company has no loyalty to Ireland or the US or any other country. The company will comply with the law, but there needs to be incentives for it won't stay in the country.

The company doesn't give a crap about who it employees....so long as they can do the job. Irish, US, whatever, they'll get you a green card; just do your job.

People in the US think this is a bad thing. US companies moving US jobs overseas where poor immigrants and work for less and the taxes go to another government.

What's really funny is that people in Ireland seem to think this is bad too! That the multinational company that only came here for tax benefits isn't putting Irish workers first. They hire immigrants! Immigrants are stealing *IRISH* jobs, working at the big US company. Meanwhile, the company is employing 51% EU or whatever the law is and the immigrants like me are paying the same taxes, plus additional registration fees, all while being ineligible to get any of the benefits I'd get if I were Irish.

I only have one job, but it's been stolen from two different people! And I'm paying more taxes than I would in the US while getting even less in the form of social protection. If I lose my job - instead of the dole I'm forced to flee the country (or get another green card)

There has been a lot of talk in the US about changing tax laws to prevent this. If it really does happen; you'd see all the US companies that don't have real reasons to be here (like all the tech companies listed above, for starters) up and leave.

Given the state of Ireland's economy, I think it'd be a great time for it. And then you can return to the paradise that would be an Irish country with an Irish workforce and Irish employees

OurLadyofKnock

Clareboy wrote: »

Speaking as a middle aged unemployed Irish male - I am sick of listening to all these do-gooders talking about all the new communities and cultures that have established themselves in Ireland over the past 10 years. What's in it for me? How do I benefit from the New Multicultural Ireland? I would love if someone could tell me! Discuss!

They represent the best hope to smash the parish pump politics which has left this country in ruins and why you are on the dole.

No more of the "me daddy was Fianna Fail/Fine Gael and his daddy before him..."

This bull**** means nothing to immigrants - so we might have a chance to get away from the Civil War psychosis in this country once and for all.

We won't smell like cow ****e anymore.....

Nodin

RVP 11 wrote: »

We won't smell like cow ****e anymore.....

Theres nothing to prevent anyone smelling of the faeces of any animal, should they desire to do so.

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

Theres nothing to prevent anyone smelling of the faeces of any animal, should they desire to do so.

But it's being watered down as a result of multiculturalism

IrishAm

Sappa wrote: »

I will agree with you on one point here,we require a visa to travel to any other EU country on a holiday hence the lastminute holiday is out of our reach due to this clause,whilst a non EU national married to a Polish national living in Ireland does not need a visa to travel to most other EU countries as they are here on a stamp 4 family visa,but that`s a problem that should be dealt with by our govt and taken up with Europe as it discriminates but that`s for another day.

I find that discussion on this board is made difficult by people focussing on one certain point I make and in some cases, imaging why I am making the point. Ive been compared to the nutter from Norway and called a racist. Its not nice to be compared to a murdering scumbag, even on the interwebs.

I would like to stress the following, I wish you and your wife all the best. It must be a pain in the bollix trying to plan a weekend away or a couple of weeks in the sun. But your wife can apply for Irish citizenship after three years of you two being married. She can go to Spain for a sun hollier, vote, complain about the government and be just as Irish as the rest of us. And I welcome her and hope she has a great life here in Ireland.

I have never claimed that Ireland does not need immigrants. Ever. I have shown, by using official figures, that there is displacement in the work force. Which, negatively affects Irish citizens. Certain employment opportunities in Ireland, will always, be not met the skill set of the Irish people. I have never once uttered the phrase, Irish jobs for Irish workers.

We will always need some level of immigration. The question I have dared to ask, is that is the current level, needed?

For example, one in three of non EU citizens whom have obtained jobs in Ireland in 2011, where employed in the catering and hospitality sector.

I defy anyone to tell me, that out of a pool of some 400,000 +, nobody presently on the live register, Irish, EU, or non EU, could efficiently carry out that job.

IrishAm

RVP 11 wrote: »

We won't smell like cow ****e anymore.....

Que?

If anything, Irish people need to learn how to use aftershaves and eau de toilettes subtly!

Walking into a nightclub in Dublin is like walking into an Abercrombie store in New York!:)

K-9

IrishAm wrote: »

You are reading them wrong and I meant for you to back up the welfare figures.

How am I reading it wrong, the report you linked to shows 3,000 non-nationals of welfare, indeed I thought this was a basis for your argument!

3,000 extra non-nationals came here, they could have got employment and the 3,000 of welfare went home. We don't know as the report doesn't provide that detail.

I'm reading the report and giving possible reasons, your reading the report with one possible reason in mind! I'm saying the report doesn't necessarily support job displacement. Can you show me where it does?

K-9

IrishAm wrote: »

I defy anyone to tell me, that out of a pool of some 400,000 +, nobody presently on the live register, Irish, EU, or non EU, could efficiently carry out that job.

The question is how many of them have had recent employment in catering? Seeing as most job losses were in construction and retail, not a lot.

Anyway, how do you propose to make sure they get those jobs?

Sappa

IrishAm wrote: »

Sappa wrote: »

I will agree with you on one point here,we require a visa to travel to any other EU country on a holiday hence the lastminute holiday is out of our reach due to this clause,whilst a non EU national married to a Polish national living in Ireland does not need a visa to travel to most other EU countries as they are here on a stamp 4 family visa,but that`s a problem that should be dealt with by our govt and taken up with Europe as it discriminates but that`s for another day.

I find that discussion on this board is made difficult by people focussing on one certain point I make and in some cases, imaging why I am making the point. Ive been compared to the nutter from Norway and called a racist. Its not nice to be compared to a murdering scumbag, even on the interwebs.

I would like to stress the following, I wish you and your wife all the best. It must be a pain in the bollix trying to plan a weekend away or a couple of weeks in the sun. But your wife can apply for Irish citizenship after three years of you two being married. She can go to Spain for a sun hollier, vote, complain about the government and be just as Irish as the rest of us. And I welcome her and hope she has a great life here in Ireland.

I have never claimed that Ireland does not need immigrants. Ever. I have shown, by using official figures, that there is displacement in the work force. Which, negatively affects Irish citizens. Certain employment opportunities in Ireland, will always, be not met the skill set of the Irish people. I have never once uttered the phrase, Irish jobs for Irish workers.

We will always need some level of immigration. The question I have dared to ask, is that is the current level, needed?

For example, one in three of non EU citizens whom have obtained jobs in Ireland in 2011, where employed in the catering and hospitality sector.

I defy anyone to tell me, that out of a pool of some 400,000 +, nobody presently on the live register, Irish, EU, or non EU, could efficiently carry out that job.

Unfortunately this country has coward running the show and would rather discriminate against the entire population than bring in a law for non nationals.
I had no problem paying the amount of money we did to get my wife here,in 6 mths she can apply for citizenship and I hope it goes smoothly,she is a qualified dental nurse and found it tough to get work her first year and was unable to get any assistance with courses or looked for them as my salary exceeded the limit,thankfully all is well now she found work in her profession.
We do feel that it is odd though that we cannot travel together to Spain or Portugal without a headache amount of paperwork but a non national from the eu married to someone from outside the eu can just jump on a plane to Lisbon for a wknd away.
I agree you have been unfairly labeled as a nutter and yes the system is flawed but we also need a bit of diversity,I must say though in nearly 5 yrs I have never experienced racism directly or my wife and it makes you wonder where all these stories come from,she has a group of maybe 30 non eu friends and o asked them before have they experienced racism,they have not,Ireland is not the bad in that regard thankfully.

IrishAm

K-9 wrote: »

How am I reading it wrong, the report you linked to shows 3,000 non-nationals of welfare, indeed I thought this was a basis for your argument!

What?

K-9 wrote: »

3,000 extra non-nationals came here, they could have got employment and the 3,000 of welfare went home. We don't know as the report doesn't provide that detail.

I am not aware of the numbers by nationality on welfare? Did I provide it in the document linked? If not, could you?

K-9 wrote: »

I'm reading the report and giving possible reasons, your reading the report with one possible reason in mind! I'm saying the report doesn't necessarily support job displacement. Can you show me where it does?

Possible reasons. The vast majority of employment that non EU citizens have taken up, is non skilled. Catering-Hotels, bars and restaurants. Administration is HR, office clerks and of course, some level of jobs that require a language that is somewhat not available through the current Irish and EU unemployed in Ireland. Chinese, Arab and Japanese for an example.

No issue with that. Catering on the other hand.........

hooradiation

Sappa wrote: »

Unfortunately this country has coward running the show and would rather discriminate against the entire population than bring in a law for non nationals.

How do you discriminate against the entire population?
That's not how discrimination even works.

Sappa

hooradiation wrote: »

Sappa wrote: »

Unfortunately this country has coward running the show and would rather discriminate against the entire population than bring in a law for non nationals.

How do you discriminate against the entire population?
That's not how discrimination even works.

Apologies typing from my phone,I meant they discriminate against Irish citizens by not having a separate rule for us when applying for spousal visas but rather there is one system for everyone and actually it is designed to make it difficult for it's citizens as Eu nationals can come here freely and bring their spouse on an Eu family visa automatically.

IrishAm

Sappa wrote: »

Unfortunately this country has coward running the show and would rather discriminate against the entire population than bring in a law for non nationals.
I had no problem paying the amount of money we did to get my wife here,in 6 mths she can apply for citizenship and I hope it goes smoothly,she is a qualified dental nurse and found it tough to get work her first year and was unable to get any assistance with courses or looked for them as my salary exceeded the limit,thankfully all is well now she found work in her profession.
We do feel that it is odd though that we cannot travel together to Spain or Portugal without a headache amount of paperwork but a non national from the eu married to someone from outside the eu can just jump on a plane to Lisbon for a wknd away.
I agree you have been unfairly labeled as a nutter and yes the system is flawed but we also need a bit of diversity,I must say though in nearly 5 yrs I have never experienced racism directly or my wife and it makes you wonder where all these stories come from,she has a group of maybe 30 non eu friends and o asked them before have they experienced racism,they have not,Ireland is not the bad in that regard thankfully.

I wish you and your missus nothing but the best. I mean that, bud. Let me reiterate, I have no qualms with spouses of Irish citizens or skilled non EU workers coming to Ireland and filling job vacancies that need filling.

None what-so-ever.

When she gets her Irish/EU citizenship bring her to a place called Rhonda to celebrate. Its in Spain. Cheap, sunny and full of beautiful seafood and Spanish culture.

Smashing place.

IrishAm

hooradiation wrote: »

How do you discriminate against the entire population?
That's not how discrimination even works.

Emmm, if I marry aaaaaaaaa, lets say a Colombian lady. She is entitled to fuuuuck all, even though she is married to an Irish citizen.

If a lad or lassie from the developing world marries an EU citizen that is exercising his or her EU treaty rights, by working, jobhunting or studying, he or she, is entitled to every single thing an EU citizen is entitled to.

I suggest you look up EU law.

Hence my problem with scam marriages for Irish permanent residency.

K-9

IrishAm wrote: »

What?



I am not aware of the numbers by nationality on welfare? Did I provide it in the document linked? If not, could you?

You did, Table 11 IIRC, near the end. Why were you whittering on about job displacement then?

Possible reasons. The vast majority of employment that non EU citizens have taken up, is non skilled. Catering-Hotels, bars and restaurants. Administration is HR, office clerks and of course, some level of jobs that require a language that is somewhat not available through the current Irish and EU unemployed in Ireland. Chinese, Arab and Japanese for an example.

No issue with that. Catering on the other hand.........

An Irish person who has worked in construction all their working lives vs. a non-national who has worked in catering? Who'd you go for.

It is a skilled job, not highly skilled but it is skilled! You think somebody can waittress or bartend of the street?

Oh, and the answer to the question, what would you do about it?

IrishAm

K-9 wrote: »

non-national

K9, who have made some pretty decent points that made me, for one, think. I will address them tomorrow evening.

But this non national phrase. I dont like it. The vast majority of immigrants are proud of their nationality. The "non national" phrase is rather unfair.

They do have a nationality.

Just a point, the sindo and the Times seem to use it.

mikemac1

IrishAm wrote: »

But this non national phrase. I dont like it. The vast majority of immigrants are proud of their nationality. The "non national" phrase is rather unfair.

They do have a nationality.

Just a point, the sindo and the Times seem to use it.

So do the gardaí
So do all government agencies

And of course so do the press releases

So it's not realy suprising the media use it and then people pick up on it

I know many don't like it but well that's saying the gardaí and in particular the GNIB are wrong to use it

Here is an example

All non-nationals who are not citizens of a member State of the European Union, the European Economic Area or Switzerland, must register with An Garda Síochána and at all times have a valid registration certificate in the form of a GNIB Card.

http://www.garda.ie/controller.aspx?page=31

If you're hearing it and dislike it just to say people don't mean anything by it, just repeating what officialdom and the media use
That's all

K-9

IrishAm wrote: »

K9, who have made some pretty decent points that made me, for one, think. I will address them tomorrow evening.

But this non national phrase. I dont like it. The vast majority of immigrants are proud of their nationality. The "non national" phrase is rather unfair.

They do have a nationality.

Just a point, the sindo and the Times seem to use it.

Apologies, yep, fully agreed, stupid phrase. They use Non Irish nationals in the pdf, I somehow took that as non-national when describing it. I've raised the exact same point before, we don't become a non nation when we emigrate so fair cop on that.

ahal

K-9 wrote: »

Apologies, yep, fully agreed, stupid phrase. They use Non Irish nationals in the pdf, I somehow took that as non-national when describing it. I've raised the exact same point before, we don't become a non nation when we emigrate so fair cop on that.

I see nothing wrong with the use of the term 'Non-national'. It means (to me) not of the nation in which currently residing, no more and no less. It's not something I'd worry about that much personally.

KINGVictor

IrishAm wrote: »

Emmm, if I marry aaaaaaaaa, lets say a Colombian lady. She is entitled to fuuuuck all, even though she is married to an Irish citizen.

If a lad or lassie from the developing world marries an EU citizen that is exercising his or her EU treaty rights, by working, jobhunting or studying, he or she, is entitled to every single thing an EU citizen is entitled to.

I suggest you look up EU law.

Hence my problem with scam marriages for Irish permanent residency.

Hi there. I really don't get your arguement with regards to the rights of Irish spouses and the spouses of EU nationals residing in Ireland. It's either you do not understand the law and its application or you are just sensationalising the matter in other to make cheap points.

Firstly, Yes it is more diifficult for an Irish citizen to facilitate the entry of a non-EU spouse into Ireland becuase they have to fufill certain criteria like sufficient funds, adequate housing and a very rigid assessment to determine if the relationship is genuine- (which is same in some countries, and even more stringent in most EU and western countries).

On the other hand, an EU ctizen resident or moving to Ireland has the right to bring their spouse as long as they are exercising their treaty rights-which essentially means working, studying or they are self sufficient; like Irish citizens, they also have to prove that the relationship with the non-EU spouse is in fact genuine.

The reality is that once an application for residency has been granted for both the spouse of an Irish citizen or an EU citizen- they both have the same rights in Ireland. I will be glad if you could clarify what you meant by the spouse of an Irish citizen is entitiled to fuck all" as you put it. On the contrary, spouses of Irish citizens are more favoured in terms of citizenship applications as they can apply for it after 3 years and spouses of EU citizens have to wait for 5 years. In addition to that, the spouse of the Irish citizen is still eligible for citizenship even if they have not worked continuosly during those three years, whereas, EU citizens have to exercise their treaty rights continuosly for 5 years for their spouses to stay in the country permanently or even have the right to apply for citizenship.

In a nutshell, spouses of Irish citizens recieve a Stamp 4 that allows them to work or establish a business if they so wish without seeking consent from the Dept of Enterprise. They are entitled to access social welfare, educational grants and any other rights that an Irish person has- bar voting in Irish general elections which incidentally applies to all EU nationals except British citizens.

So can you revise your post to reflect the actual facts because its basically false and misleading?