The New Multicultural Ireland - The Benefits?

It wasn't me!

IrishAm wrote: »

Irelands lowest unemployment levels occurred in 2004 at 80,000. This figure has increased yearly from 2004 right up to 2012, a period that coincides with the opening of the labour market to the accession states and increased numbers from outside the EUA, a coincidence? No. All CSO stats confirm high levels of job displacement of native Irish by foreign workers.

One of the supposed advantages of our EU membership is easy access to millions of workers, but despite the dramatic growth in the EU over the past 8 years nearly every local corner shop and petrol station is staffed by non EU workers from south and central Asia, it really is a joke.

So I will ask again - what is the function of the Irish state? Is there any reason for it to exist if not to promote the interests of it's people ?

What is the Irish state?
Who are Irish people and how are they defined?
What are the interests of the Irish people?
What is required to defend these interests?

Nodin

MaxSteele wrote: »

Simple fact is ... we all belong to a certain ethnic/cultural group and most of us here posting belong to the predominantly white/christian/Celtic stock of this country. It's perfectly natural to want your already majority demographic to remain as the status quo so long as you live and perhaps during your children's lifetime too.

I for one am not a racist and bear no hostilities to any particular one at that. But ..... I have to admit I would rather keep the non-native and so called second generation minorities in moderation to a roughly 70 - 30 ratio at least. Unfortunately, an attitude like mine is prime beef for attack by some pretentious, PC, gimp with an irritable moral compass.

Or somebody like me could arrive and point out that second generation would not be "non Irish", so what you're on about is anyones guess.....

Millicent

Nodin wrote: »

Or somebody like me could arrive and point out that second generation would not be "non Irish", so what you're on about is anyones guess.....

I think it's not too hard a guess, tbf...

It started with "I'm not a racist, but..."

MaxSteele

Millicent wrote: »

From my one trip to America, I noted that none of that disappears in a multi-cultural society. If anything, you get an even more profound mix of appearances and style and often a beautiful mixing of different attributes. We're not about to look all the same.

From what i've read on other threads regarding travel/dodgy areas, there's a lot of segregation in America you probably wouldn't hear about. Especially in it's big cities, which are supposedly cultural "melting pots".

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72290911

hooradiation

IrishAm wrote: »

Irelands lowest unemployment levels occurred in 2004 at 80,000. This figure has increased yearly from 2004 right up to 2012, a period that coincides with the opening of the labour market to the accession states and increased numbers from outside the EUA, a coincidence? No. All CSO stats confirm high levels of job displacement of native Irish by foreign workers.

One of the supposed advantages of our EU membership is easy access to millions of workers, but despite the dramatic growth in the EU over the past 8 years nearly every local corner shop and petrol station is staffed by non EU workers from south and central Asia, it really is a joke.

So I will ask again - what is the function of the Irish state? Is there any reason for it to exist if not to promote the interests of it's people ?

The function of the Irish state isn't to implement institutionalised discrimination as you seem to want.

"Foreign workers" beating you to the punch for jobs? Quit bitching and raise your game.

Nodin

Millicent wrote: »

I think it's not too hard a guess, tbf...

It started with "I'm not a racist, but..."

Now that you mention it.....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77695959&postcount=239

Millicent

MaxSteele wrote: »

From what i've read on other threads regarding travel/dodgy areas, there's a lot of segregation in America you probably wouldn't hear about. Especially in it's big cities, which are supposedly cultural "melting pots".

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72290911

That wasn't my point though. Was just saying it was possible to retain or even build on the attributes of certain ethnicities even in multi-cultural countries.

IrishAm

hooradiation wrote: »

The function of the Irish state isn't to implement institutionalised discrimination as you seem to want.

Again, what is the point of the Irish state, if not to protect and remain a homeland for the Irish people?

hooradiation wrote: »

"Foreign workers" beating you to the punch for jobs? Quit bitching and raise your game.

No, not me, no. But an awful lot of my fellow Irish people.

What do you work at, by the way? I guarantee you that I could find a non EU citizen more willing and able to do your job, for less pay.

It wasn't me!

IrishAm wrote: »

Again, what is the point of the Irish state, if not to protect and remain a homeland for the Irish people?



No, not me, no. But an awful lot of my fellow Irish people.

What do you work at, by the way? I guarantee you that I could find a non EU citizen more willing and able to do your job, for less pay.

Sorry, I know these are tough questions, but I've asked you already and you don't seem to be seeing them:

What is the Irish state?
Who are Irish people and how are they defined?
What are the interests of the Irish people?
What is required to defend these interests?

Nodin

IrishAm wrote: »

Again, what is the point of the Irish state, if not to protect and remain a homeland for the Irish people?



No, not me, no. But an awful lot of my fellow Irish people.

What do you work at, by the way? I guarantee you that I could find a non EU citizen more willing and able to do your job, for less pay.

Yeah, how many non-EU people are here on work visas....?

IrishAm

Nodin wrote: »

Do please link to the stats, and something to back up your "every local corner shop" thing as well.....

The stats show us that number of Irish in the workforce is decreasing, whilst numbers from the accession states and outside the EU are increasing.

By roughly the same number that the number of Irish in the workforce is decreasing by. No displacement there!:rolleyes:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/labourmarket/2011/qnhs_q42011.pdf

MaxSteele

Nodin wrote: »

Or somebody like me could arrive and point out that second generation would not be "non Irish", so what you're on about is anyones guess.....

Take a look at this country's majority demographic and it should be pretty clear who I'm referring to.

The other thread you've linked to Millicent just backs up my point of view, dunno if you're trying to send me on a guilt trip but you tried before and it didn't work so don't waste your time

IrishAm

Nodin wrote: »

Yeah, how many non-EU people are here on work visas....?

Have we not danced this dance before? Did I not reasonably demonstrate how one from outside the EU could circumvent Irish immigration?

Seachmall

IrishAm wrote: »

I guarantee you that I could find a non EU citizen more willing and able to do your job, for less pay.

If somebody is better qualified and willing to work for less they should get the job.

If you think your place of birth should somehow give you a priority despite the fact you're not the best man for the job then you're an idiot.

IrishAm

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Sorry, I know these are tough questions, but I've asked you already and you don't seem to be seeing them:

Apologies, I didnt see your post.


What is the Irish state? The Irish nation.
Who are Irish people and how are they defined? Irish born citizens.
What are the interests of the Irish people? To be able to achieve the basic hierarchy of needs.
What is required to defend these interests? Employment.

It wasn't me!

Seachmall wrote: »

If somebody is better qualified and willing to work for less they should get the job.

If you think your place of birth should somehow give you a priority despite the fact you're not the best man for the job then you're an idiot.

Now now, let's not jump to conclusions. He hasn't yet defined his conception of "Irish people" so we don't know what role place of birth plays in it.

IrishAm

Seachmall wrote: »

If somebody is better qualified and willing to work for less they should get the job.

Do you not believe in the minimum wage?

Seachmall wrote: »

If you think your place of birth should somehow give you a priority despite the fact you're not the best man for the job then you're an idiot.

Then ninety per cent of Irish people would be unemployed. The vast, vast majority of jobs in Ireland could be done, better, cheaper and more efficiently by people from outside the EU.

Is it discriminatory to not allow them enter our labour market?

Nodin

IrishAm wrote: »

Have we not danced this dance before? Did I not reasonably demonstrate how one from outside the EU could circumvent Irish immigration?

Illegally. If you've knowledge of people working illegally, then report them.

It wasn't me!

IrishAm wrote: »

Apologies, I didnt see your post.


What is the Irish state? The Irish nation.
Who are Irish people and how are they defined? Irish born citizens.
What are the interests of the Irish people? To be able to achieve the basic hierarchy of needs.
What is required to defend these interests? Employment.

1. The Irish nation is an even more ambiguous term than the Irish state, and has been used to refer to identifiable Irish-heritage populations abroad as well as here. Being just an ill-defined term, do you reckon Irish-heritage communities in, say, New York exist to protect the interests of the Irish people?

2. So anybody born in Ireland, regardless of their parentage, race or background?

3. No major issue here, though I'm really not sure how you intellectually connect it to point 1.

4. The Irish State can not be responsible for the entirety of the employment within the country. Agreed? Would you wish to have a society wherein every individual worked in the civil service? Hardly useful. You're also a bit short on detail as to how the group indicated in point 1 above is responsible for ensuring employment for everyone.

Nodin

MaxSteele wrote: »

Take a look at this country's majority demographic and it should be pretty clear who I'm referring to.

..........

"White" people. You're "pro-white". Therefore the "I for one am not a racist" is a bit laughable.

IrishAm

Nodin wrote: »

Illegally. If you've knowledge of people working illegally, then report them.

And did I not demonstrate and point out that is not illegal to enter Ireland as an english language student and them take part in a marital business transaction to obtain permanent residence.

As such marriages are not illegal as there is no legislation in place to tackle it.

It wasn't me!

IrishAm wrote: »

Then ninety per cent of Irish people would be unemployed. The vast, vast majority of jobs in Ireland could be done, better, cheaper and more efficiently by people from outside the EU.

Is it discriminatory to not allow them enter our labour market?

Labour costs are only one issue governing business and employment and are weighed against a multitude of others.

Seachmall

IrishAm wrote: »

Do you not believe in the minimum wage?

Not relevant.

Then ninety per cent of Irish people would be unemployed. The vast, vast majority of jobs in Ireland could be done, better, cheaper and more efficiently by people from outside the EU.

Meh. I don't care for Irish people any more than I do non-Irish people. People are people. Your place of birth is a crutch I'd call you an idiot for leaning on.

Is it discriminatory to not allow them enter our labour market?

Not relevant.

hooradiation

IrishAm wrote: »

No, not me, no. But an awful lot of my fellow Irish people.

Maybe they should stop blaming other people then?

IrishAm wrote: »

What do you work at, by the way? I guarantee you that I could find a non EU citizen more willing and able to do your job, for less pay.

Programmer with specialisation in Artificial Intelligence, and off you go kid, I'm not worried.
Because I'm pretty fucking awesome at my job.

IrishAm

Seachmall wrote: »

Not relevant.
Meh. I don't care for Irish people any more than I do non-Irish people.
Not relevant.

It most certainly is relevant.

Seachmall

IrishAm wrote: »

It most certainly is relevant.

Which of the irrelevant points is relevant to my point?

Nodin

IrishAm wrote: »

And did I not demonstrate and point out that is not illegal to enter Ireland as an english language student and them take part in a marital business transaction to obtain permanent residence.

As such marriages are not illegal as there is no legislation in place to tackle it.

That loophole has only existed since 2008. Legislation is being brought in to close it. Should somebody enter illegally, the state is entitled to enact penalties.

IrishAm

It wasn't me! wrote: »

So anybody born in Ireland, regardless of their parentage, race or background?

Just a quick point, only children born to an Irish citizen parent are automatically given Irish citizenship.

See the Citizenship referendum for reference.

MaxSteele

Nodin wrote: »

"White" people. You're "pro-white". Therefore the "I for one am not a racist" is a bit laughable.

Yeah that's right I am, no shame or quams there, that's for sure.

And no I don't actively discriminate on a day to day basis based on colour. Just because I'm "pro-white" doesn't make me a racist. I simply prefer Ireland the way it is right now, majority white, native Irish. Laugh away pal, you won't be changing my opinions anytime soon.

IrishAm

Nodin wrote: »

That loophole has only existed since 2008. Legislation is being brought in to close it. Should somebody enter illegally, the state is entitled to enact penalties.

As I pointed out in the other thread, they havent done anything illegal as the legislation has not been enacted. So what penalties should they suffer?

Once they get married, they are exercising their EU treaty rights and are legally entitled to reside in Ireland. Sham marriages are not illegal in Ireland.

The Internet Explorer

Everybody chill. It'll be grand.

Nodin

MaxSteele wrote: »

Yeah that's right I am, no shame or quams there, that's for sure.

And no I don't actively discriminate on a day to day basis based on colour. Just because I'm "pro-white" doesn't make me a racist. I simply prefer Ireland the way it is right now, majority white, native Irish. Laugh away pal, you won't be changing my opinions anytime soon.

I'm not attempting to change your opinions, I'm just clarifying exactly what they are. And if you declare that second generation/third generation persons of non-Irish origins can't be Irish, then yes, you are a racist.

It wasn't me!

IrishAm wrote: »

Just a quick point, only children born to an Irish citizen parent are automatically given Irish citizenship.

See the Citizenship referendum for reference.

So, a child born to two black, Muslim, Nigerian parents, one of whom has been granted Irish citizenship. Does that child fit in with your conception of the "Irish people"?

IrishAm

hooradiation wrote: »

Maybe they should stop blaming other people then?

I rarely hear people blaming foreign nationals for job displacement. I often hear them blame the politicians whom facilitated it.

hooradiation wrote: »

Programmer with specialisation in Artificial Intelligence, and off you go kid, I'm not worried.
Because I'm pretty fucking awesome at my job.

Good for you. Fair play. But I doubt you would be so smug if Ireland had an influx of programmers willing and able to work for a fraction of your wage.

IrishAm

It wasn't me! wrote: »

So, a child born to two black, Muslim, Nigerian parents, one of whom has been granted Irish citizenship. Does that child fit in with your conception of the "Irish people"?

If they are automatically entitled to Irish citizenship at birth then of course they are Irish. I dont understand what you are trying to get at.

Nodin

IrishAm wrote: »

As I pointed out in the other thread, they havent done anything illegal as the legislation has not been enacted. So what penalties should they suffer?

Once they get married, they are exercising their EU treaty rights and are legally entitled to reside in Ireland. Sham marriages are not illegal in Ireland.

Entering the country illegally.

............the host Member State is, however, entitled to impose penalties, in compliance with the directive, for entry into and residence in its territory in breach of the national rules on immigration.

http://curia.europa.eu/en/actu/communiques/cp08/aff/cp080057en.pdf

MaxSteele

Nodin wrote: »

And if you declare that second generation/third generation persons of non-Irish origins can't be Irish, then yes, you are a racist.

Says who exactly ?? Seems more subjective than fact. I could say every 5th generation, non - native american is in fact not american and just a colonist settler. Which is actually accepted by lot's of people as fact.

It wasn't me!

IrishAm wrote: »

If they are automatically entitled to Irish citizenship at birth then of course they are Irish. I dont understand what you are trying to get at.

nearly every local corner shop and petrol station is staffed by non EU workers from south and central Asia

The above quote tells me that you're assuming a lot based on people's apparent ethnicity. Any one of those workers could be Irish. Citizenship is a legal matter. Laws are human social constructions. Unless you're referring to an abstract Irish ethnicity of course, as I suspect. what if citizenship was legally handed out along with a free packet of crisps and a Mars bar for everyone who wanted it getting off the plane, no matter who they were or where they came from? Would the fact that those people are entitled, legally, to Irish citizenship be in keeping with your conception of the Irish people?

IrishAm

Nodin wrote: »

Entering the country illegally.

Where, in my hypothetical example did my hypothetical non EU immigrant enter the state illegally?

IrishAm wrote: »

And did I not demonstrate and point out that is not illegal to enter Ireland as an english language student and them take part in a marital business transaction to obtain permanent residence.

As such marriages are not illegal as there is no legislation in place to tackle it.

And I am not blaming impoverished non EU nationals for exploiting the loophole. Its an open goal. If I was in their position I couldnt say if I would do a Di Canio or not and pass it up.

IrishAm

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The above quote tells me that you're assuming a lot based on people's apparent ethnicity. Any one of those workers could be Irish.

They could very well be, but I am somewhat doubtful. Asian twenty something year old males with asian accents tend to be students from the Asian subcontinent.

On average, it takes seven years to obtain Irish citizenship. Time spent in Ireland as a student does not count. Contrary to popular belief, it is not easy to obtain.

Unless you work for Mossad.:)

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Citizenship is a legal matter.

Yes.

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Laws are human social constructions.

Yes.

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Unless you're referring to an abstract Irish ethnicity of course, as I suspect. what if citizenship was legally handed out along with a free packet of crisps and a Mars bar for everyone who wanted it getting off the plane, no matter who they were or where they came from? Would the fact that those people are entitled, legally, to Irish citizenship be in keeping with your conception of the Irish people?

No.

We had an referendum regarding Irish citizenship in the early noughties. I was too young to vote, but I agree with it. Only those born to an Irish parent and to a parent legally resident in Ireland for over three years is entitled to citizenship at birth. Quite right, too.

Anyway, Irish citizenship is not easy to obtain and if you jump through the hoops, well, you deserve it and have demonstrated that you really, really want it. Good enough for me.

I hope that clears things up.

Nodin

MaxSteele wrote: »

Says who exactly ?? Seems more subjective than fact. ,,,,,,,,.

Well, to you it would. You're defining "Irish" as a race, however, so I'd suggest being a bit more honest with yourself, if nothing else.

It wasn't me!

IrishAm wrote: »

They could very well be, but I am somewhat doubtful. Asian twenty something year old males with asian accents tend to be students from the Asian subcontinent.

On average, it takes seven years to obtain Irish citizenship. Time spent in Ireland as a student does not count. Contrary to popular belief, it is not easy to obtain.

Unless you work for Mossad.:)




Yes.



Yes.



No.

We had an referendum regarding Irish citizenship in the early noughties. I was too young to vote, but I agree with it. Only those born to an Irish parent and to a parent legally resident in Ireland for over three years is entitled to citizenship at birth. Quite right, too.

Anyway, Irish citizenship is not easy to obtain and if you jump through the hoops, well, you deserve it and have demonstrated that you really, really want it. Good enough for me.

I hope that clears things up.

Maybe they tend to be, but not exclusively so. Can think of a friend of mine off the top of my head who bucks that trend. So what you're saying is it's a pretty arbitrary "deserves it" line instead of the law after all? Good luck with the equitable application of your odd value judgements so!

Nodin

IrishAm wrote: »

Where, in my hypothetical example did my hypothetical non EU immigrant enter the state illegally?


.............

...as the loophole is being closed, I fail to see your problem with legal entrants to the country.

IrishAm

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Maybe they tend to be, but not exclusively so. Can think of a friend of mine off the top of my head who bucks that trend.

Your friend is an Irish born citizen with an asian accent working in a petrol station?

It wasn't me! wrote: »

So what you're saying is it's a pretty arbitrary "deserves it" line instead of the law after all?

I am saying that one has to have worked legally for five years, not come to the attention of the gardai, not become a drain on social welfare, paid visa fees and 1,000 euro to apply for Irish citizenship.

After all that, they have to wait for at least another two years(whilst paying for their visa renewals) before they get a refusal or acceptance letter.

Quite the pain in the bollix. So, yes, I would class them as more deserving of citizenship than some lad just off the plane.

Irish citizenship is a gift, not a right. It is the biggest gift the state can bestow on a non Irish born citizen. If you meet the criteria, jump through the hoops, welcome to the club. But like all good clubs, we have strict entrance criteria :cool:

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Good luck with the equitable application of your odd value judgements so!

What is odd about it?

IrishAm

Nodin wrote: »

...as the loophole is being closed, I fail to see your problem with legal entrants to the country.

Sure it will. Just like the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill , Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2008 , Immigration, Residence and Protections bill 2010 will be passed soon. Very soon. On the way. Any moment now........

It wasn't me!

IrishAm wrote: »

Your friend is an Irish born citizen with an asian accent working in a petrol station?



No, I am saying that one has to have worked legally for five years, not come to the attention of the gardai, not become a drain on social welfare, paid visa fees and 1,000 euro to apply for Irish citizenship.

After all that, they have to wait for at least another two years(whilst paying for their visa renewals) before they get a refusal or acceptance letter.

Quite the pain in the bollix. So, yes, I would class them as more deserving of citizenship than some lad just off the plane.

Irish citizenship is a gift, not a right. It is the biggest gift the state can bestow on a non Irish born citizen. If you meet the criteria, jump through the hoops, welcome to the club. But like all good clubs, we have strict entrance criteria :cool:



What is odd about it?

No, he's a twenty-something visibly Asian male with a Chinese accent and Irish citizenship.

Frankly, from the process, I think those people are a lot more deserving than those who receive citizenship just by squirming out of the right womb and not dying in the process, don't you?

IrishAm

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Frankly, from the process, I think those people are a lot more deserving than those who receive citizenship just by squirming out of the right womb and not dying in the process, don't you?

Deserving, yes. Not more deserving, no. The vast majority of Irish born citizens pay their taxes, do not come to the attention of the gardai and are model citizens too.

It wasn't me!

IrishAm wrote: »

Deserving, yes. Not more deserving, no. The vast majority of Irish born citizens pay their taxes, do not come to the attention of the gardai and are model citizens too.

That's not why they have their citizenship though, is it? All I had to do for mine was be born. What about you?

IrishAm

It wasn't me! wrote: »

All I had to do for mine was be born. What about you?

I had a choice of three. :cool:

Maglight

Clareboy wrote: »

Are you actually suggesting that there are not enough skilled workers to be had in all the 27 countries of the EU!

In the area of IT? Yes. There is a Europe wide shortage of skilled IT professionals. And as the knowledge economy is the horse we are backing to get Ireland back on track, we need a large number of skilled IT professionals here right now to satisfy the demands of emerging Irish companies, not to mention the huge demand from the multinationals that are locating here. Eastern Europe has a fairly good supply of skilled IT professionals. After that, you are talking Asia.