Puberty????.....Dogs are starting to fight.

mickmcl09

Have 2 Sammies. Yoshi is 17 months and Lucas is 11 months.
Both are dogs.
In the last couple of weeks they're having a go at each other. The older fella always instigates the row. Thankfully the younger fella is well able to mind himself being as heavy and as big as the older guy.
We use the water to break it up and they cease immediately, but I'd rather they didn't do it at all. It occurs 5/6 days a week, on a bad day maybe 3 times and lasts for 5/10 seconds. There has been blood spilled on 2 occasions but nothing major, scratched ear etc.

Is this because they're going through the changes and will they get out of it?
What did you do in a similar situation?
I'm hoping that it's a case of both of them finding their place (pecking order) and that it will pass in the next few months.

They are not neutered and will not be neutered, so I'm not interested in neutering forming part of the discussion, thanks.

andreac

I think you will struggle to have 2 entire males around the place and even more so if both are trying to fight it out.

I just would make sure they are never left unsupervised because you could come home to one dead dog or at the least, very seriously injured dog.

Maybe consult a trainer and see what advice they can give you.

There are some entire males that just will not tolerate another entire male in the same household.

westies4ever

mickmcl09 wrote: »

They are not neutered and will not be neutered, so I'm not interested in neutering forming part of the discussion, thanks.

you'll probably have to put up with it then.

mickmcl09

Thanks Andrea, they're not aggressive by nature, in fact the complete opposite. I've spoken to a trainer and it's the water and a very firm 'no', to be fair I just have to say 'no' and they stop and then they come over looking for love, it's like their own distraction strategy, like the kids if I haul them in for being naughty, they go with the 'we love you Daddy' strategy, but I ignore it, I mean I ignore the dogs that is .

Neutering isn't the 'go to' solution for anything Westie, it's simply a choice you make for yourself and on behalf of your pet:rolleyes: I'm not for it or against it.

westies4ever

not saying its the 'go to' but its proven to reduce aggression and dominance issues in male dogs but yet you dont want to entertain it.

andreac

I wouldnt be taking any chances with these dogs if they are showing this kind of aggression now, its only going to get worse.
Some male dogs have to be kept separated from other entire males as they just dont tolerate it.

Personally, i would neuter one of them. Why is neutering not an option anyway? Do you show or breed them?

ISDW

As they are both unneutered males, is it possible that there is a bitch in season somewhere nearby?

LucyBliss

I was going to ask the same as ISDW. Are you going to use them for stud? Because otherwise that is a lot of testosterone energy about the place!! You're probably doing this already, but I would suggest walking/running the legs off them and trying to seriously tire them out so they have little energy for going at one another and supervising them constantly when they're together.

Best of luck because it's not easy when that is going on in the house, whether it's two young dogs or two young kids!

TooManyDogs

If you're goiing to keep them both entire it could need very careful management for the rest of their lives. Having friends with 2 entire males I've seen how difficult it can be keeping peace in the house. Hopefully this is only a passing phase with yours but I'd get in a very good behaviourist to teach you the tiny subtle signs that show something is about to kick off.
+1 on not leaving them alone unsupervised as Andreac said, it's simply not worth the risk, and that may be a permanent situation. My friend had to kennel one and have the other minded at home because she couldn't risk someone else not having the experience with them to tell the signs early enough to stop fighting. Her own mood or mood of other family members could play a vital role in either preventing or causing trouble between the dogs, likewise she had to be careful about what affection or time she spent with 1 in front of the other so as not to create jealousy.

As you said it's your choice not to have them neutered but just be aware of the fact that it may not be a phase, this may be your life for the next 12 or so years.

mickmcl09

ISDW wrote: »

As they are both unneutered males, is it possible that there is a bitch in season somewhere nearby?

I fairly sure there isn't. They actually had a row in public last week. Lasted all of 4/5 seconds but long enough to be a bit embarrassing.

One of them is definitely for showing at championship level andreac, the jury is out on the other fella, a late developer, but his full brothers from an earlier litter were the same, so I want to give him a chance.

andreac

If you are going to show them why haven't you started yet? You usually start showing a dog from 6 months and ringcraft should be started from and early age as it takes months to train for the show ring.

mickmcl09

Just got to read the other posts there now. Thanks guys. They get alot of exercise and I'd agree that there's less incidents when I've the legs run off them, there's no doubt, plus they got almost an acre to run about on when they're at home.

I won't be using them as stud dogs LucyBliss, although I do intend to breed from one of them in particular at some point assuming it goes to plan that is.

I have the supervision thing relatively well controlled, I can also see the signs when Yoshi wants to get things started. He's no poker player and the body language gives him away every time, before even a whimper of a growl. I'd just rather that they got on.

I'm kind of hoping that because the calmer guy who's younger, that when they both realise the calmer guy is actually the boss things will calm down.

I'm hoping as well that it's all because the older fella is just feeling a bit challenged and that once he realises he's no longer the stronger dog that he'll calm down because he's always the aggressor.

Off for another walk now!

ISDW

mickmcl09 wrote: »

Just got to read the other posts there now. Thanks guys. They get alot of exercise and I'd agree that there's less incidents when I've the legs run off them, there's no doubt, plus they got almost an acre to run about on when they're at home.

I won't be using them as stud dogs LucyBliss, although I do intend to breed from one of them in particular at some point assuming it goes to plan that is.


Off for another walk now!

I'm not going to discuss with you whether you should or shouldnt, but thats exactly what a stud dog is, the male dog in a breeding.

Bullseye1

You essentially have two dogs trying to see who is alpha. You will have your work cut out for you. Lots of supervision and seperating when your not there.

mickmcl09

ISDW wrote: »

I'm not going to discuss with you whether you should or shouldnt, but thats exactly what a stud dog is, the male dog in a breeding.

I would be describing a dog as a 'stud' dog if it was a persons intention to breed from him multiple times with multiple bitches. He'll be breed once, twice at most so relax with the high and mighty stuff. Talk about changing subjects.

Andreac, Ive had him at showing classes every week for the last 4 months, I've simply not had time to get to one of the shows. He's green star standard. Mammy, her mammy and the Daddy and his sister have a green star total into the 3 figures between them. Mammy and Daddy have only been bred the once and at most they might have one more litter as she's on the old side, so he's unique enough (2 dogs and 2 bitches in the litter) just the way an exhibitor likes to have their dogs as you know only too well especially if you have one of the better ones. Same as above, I asked about 2 dogs fighting, not stud dogs or show dogs. Start a new thread for that if ye want

ISDW

mickmcl09 wrote: »

I would be describing a dog as a 'stud' dog if it was a persons intention to breed from him multiple times with multiple bitches. He'll be breed once, twice at most so relax with the high and mighty stuff. Talk about changing subjects.

Andreac, Ive had him at showing classes every week for the last 4 months, I've simply not had time to get to one of the shows. He's green star standard. Mammy, her mammy and the Daddy and his sister have a green star total into the 3 figures between them. Mammy and Daddy have only been bred the once and at most they might have one more litter as she's on the old side, so he's unique enough (2 dogs and 2 bitches in the litter) just the way an exhibitor likes to have their dogs as you know only too well especially if you have one of the better ones. Same as above, I asked about 2 dogs fighting, not stud dogs or show dogs. Start a new thread for that if ye want

what high and mighty stuff? A stud dog is a dog that is used for breeding, it doesn't matter if its once or 10 times. I thought you didn't understand, so was just pointing out what a stud dog is, you brought up the term stud dog, not me. Please explain how that is high and mighty? Trying to be helpful thats all, haven't commented at all in this thread about anything, except trying to be helpful, i.e., asking if there could be a bitch in season somewhere nearby. Please accept my apologies for trying to help. I won't make the mistake again with any of your threads.

LucyBliss

The only reason I asked if you were going to use them as stud dogs is because not neutering them and then not letting them get their sexy on from time to time would probably see you taking to the drink within a few months! Like I said in my previous post, that's a lot of energy to be dealing with in a house at any one time. Personally, I wouldn't do it simply because I like a quiet life!

I think too part of the problem is probably the fact that it is two males who are quite close in age. You get one trying to best the other. I have three dogs, two females and a male. One of the females is slightly older than the other two are are from the same litter. It's a good balance (for us) because the older one's presence breaks up any potential spats from the younger two as she is the boss, but the boy brings in a distraction and new dynamic between the two girls who went through a phase of eyeballing one another in the past. They've settled into their pecking order now (they're four and nearly five years old).
Now I'm not saying get a female dog, I'm just saying there's always that bit of rivalry between dogs that are close in age and they're both male.

They may settle down as they get older, it's hard to tell, but it does look like being ready to step in and distract them when they start to get hardcore and tiring them out is the thing for the time being.

Like I said before, best of luck!

mickmcl09

ISDW wrote: »

what high and mighty stuff? A stud dog is a dog that is used for breeding, it doesn't matter if its once or 10 times. I thought you didn't understand, so was just pointing out what a stud dog is, you brought up the term stud dog, not me. Please explain how that is high and mighty? Trying to be helpful thats all, haven't commented at all in this thread about anything, except trying to be helpful, i.e., asking if there could be a bitch in season somewhere nearby. Please accept my apologies for trying to help. I won't make the mistake again with any of your threads.

Go to post #8 actually for the first reference to stud dog. I answered that post, the same one you took the liberty (to which you're entitled to do) of highlighting the pernickety nature of my reply (to post #8 that is).
Apologies if in fact breeding a dog once is in fact a stud dog, but however wrong, most people would associate a stud dog / horse, whatever, with breeding the animal 'many' times irrespective of the true meaning ie if you breed only once, the dog is still a 'stud dog' which is what you're saying I take it.
Your other comments were very helpful. I think I may have thanked your first one in fact, the one about a bitch in heat I think it was, so get over it.

star-pants

mickmcl09 I suggest you watch your tone towards other posters. If you have an issue with a post - use the report post function, instead of replying to it.
Do not reply to this post.

kylith

Would you consider temporary castration with a medication like Suprelorin? A guy I know in the UK uses it on his dog for when his bitch is due into season. It works by lowering testosterone, and lasts for about 6 months. It could solve your agression problems, but youd be able to breed in the future if you decided to.

mickmcl09

kylith wrote: »

Would you consider temporary castration with a medication like Suprelorin? A guy I know in the UK uses it on his dog for when his bitch is due into season. It works by lowering testosterone, and lasts for about 6 months. It could solve your agression problems, but youd be able to breed in the future if you decided to.

Spoke to the Vet this evening. While the contraceptive would work in calming the dog, by giving it to one, the other fella will start to torment him ( in a gay sort of way ) which in the vets opinion could escalate things and make them worse.
It just occured to me. I didn't ask about giving it to both of them.
The vet reckons they're only sorting out the dominance thing.
Not fighting as much now, maybe once a week and the growling has calmed down as well. Cleaning each others faces right now.