Personal Issues

hoodwinked

Hi all, i hope i am in the right place,


i am posting here rather then reporting post as it is more then one or two posts/threads i am referring to here,


Lately Personal issues/relationship issues seems like a very hostile place to me, people go there when they are desperate, going through a bad time, and/or they need some advice. but lately all the threads ive read have been posters lambasting the op's to the point people won't come back, post back, or ask mods to lock their threads.

so many people are being attacked by posters maybe not in a way deserving of mod action but in ways that make it not a very nice place to post if you are having issues which may be important or upsetting for you. which surely defeats the purpose of the place, hostile is the only way you could describe the posters posting lately in there.

i have seen more then one poster who clearly have strong feelings against the actions of the op who just lay into them, again not attacking the poster but in such a way that would i felt if i was the OP make me think twice about asking for advice there again.

as i said its not just one or two examples but happening regularly and by boards members and not just those who post anonymously. Quite a few of them seem to have their own agendas which really come out in their posts and their 'advice' is very loosely aimed at the op.


can anything be done about this? i have seen quite a few posters these past few months who this has happened to. Some have even mentioned it and said they wont come back again isn't this against the whole point of personal issues, a non judgmental advice area being full of judgmental blame the op advice?

in the charter it says:

Reply to threads in a civil and well phrased manner, remember being a Personal Issues board the contents of some threads may be very close to people's hearts.

Any advice given should be mature, constructive and non-abusive. Opinions are welcome. Ridicule and nastiness are not.

i hope you guys take a look at this and can help.

Otis Driftwood

I used to mod PI and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt,it is one of the,if not the most tightly modded forums on boards.Every single reported post gets looked at by the mods and if its deemed actionable then it is actioned.

Have you reported the posts you feel have crossed the line?

I ask because it is such a fast moving forum it is impossible for the mods to read every single post in every single thread so its up to users to report the posts.

As for OPs on occasion being lambasted,tbh,sometimes people need to be told the truth,no matter how harsh it may seem.I know it can be hard to differentiate between advice and abuse on occasion but thats where the mods and the report post function come in.

hoodwinked

Otis Driftwood wrote: »

I used to mod PI and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt,it is one of the,if not the most tightly modded forums on boards.Every single reported post gets looked at by the mods and if its deemed actionable then it is actioned.

Have you reported the posts you feel have crossed the line?

I ask because it is such a fast moving forum it is impossible for the mods to read every single post in every single thread so its up to users to report the posts.

As for OPs on occasion being lambasted,tbh,sometimes people need to be told the truth,no matter how harsh it may seem.I know it can be hard to differentiate between advice and abuse on occasion but thats where the mods and the report post function come in.

Fair enough, i understand that people need to hear the truth sometimes and i admit myself i've seen posts that even i want to give the op a lambasting but i know its not the place and usually just walk away and say nothing, they are there for help and if i can't help i don't, if i can i do. i don't think its in anyway helpful to tell an op you are 'disgusted with their behavior' or to 'grow up and get on with it' which seem to be two reply's (and attitudes im referring to) popping up in most threads lately.

i am aware that its a very busy forum but i would be hitting the report button so often i thought maybe if i brought it to the attention of boards in general maybe it could be looked at as its more common then not lately that an op is just attacked regardless of the problem posted, rather then some bit of advice given.

surely when you have people afraid to post even anonymously for fear of attack by other posters in personal issues the whole point of personal issues has been lost?

minidazzler

The thing about reporting posts in that forum is that it has a two fold effect, if the mod hasn't seen the offending post they will see it and they will react. And unlike other forums people are more likely to take warnings, infractions and bannings on board, so when you report they'll get a kick up the bum by the mod, either an infraction or a warning if it really is going overboard and most will not go so overboard again. So do report the posts, even if your report message is short and sweet saying "kinda aggressive" it makes the mods work easier and the forum a better place.

But one thing to remember is that while you might read a post as very confrontational (and to be fair "grow up and move on" is very confrontational, things people say can be coloured by the mood we are in to sound a lot more confrontational than it actually is.

Dudess

Otis Driftwood wrote: »

I used to mod PI and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt,it is one of the,if not the most tightly modded forums on boards.Every single reported post gets looked at by the mods and if its deemed actionable then it is actioned.

Have you reported the posts you feel have crossed the line?

I ask because it is such a fast moving forum it is impossible for the mods to read every single post in every single thread so its up to users to report the posts.

As for OPs on occasion being lambasted,tbh,sometimes people need to be told the truth,no matter how harsh it may seem.I know it can be hard to differentiate between advice and abuse on occasion but thats where the mods and the report post function come in.

I don't doubt it's tightly modded, Otis, but there's a big difference between telling someone a harsh truth in a kind or even firm way... and being dismissive of them. When there was a thread a few months back by a woman whose friend had just cut her out for no reason, was really nasty and hostile to her, and the OP said it was nearly like a break-up she was so hurt, and when there were responses like "You're being needy", "Why should she explain anything to you?", "Get over it - move on" I thought to myself "Bye bye P.I." and I have not returned.
Disgusting and shameful responses tbh. Even if people feel they're good advice, it's not difficult to word them in a more understanding way.

stovelid

Forums like that are as much about the gratification of dishing out pseudo-professional advice as helping people.

WindSock

I remember someone proposing a PI Lite sort of forum, where people can just vent their problems and other posters can give their input or words of encouragement in a kindly sort of way.
I do think there is a bit of lambasting going on in PI, but as said, probably not enough to warrant action. And in some cases it may be a deserved 'cop on to yourself' sort of thing. But not everyone might be in the mental state to hear that at the time of reading / posting and it may discourage them or others from posting again.

Taltos

Hi OP

thanks for raising your concerns - we really do appreciate and welcome the feedback.
I cannot speak for the other mods on the forum but I would like to reiterate the comment above by Otis.

With the volume of traffic through the forum we cannot always catch every infractoin. We do though review each and every reported post.
Many of the reported posts are actioned, either with bans, warnings or infractions. Others though we have to make judgement calls on and unless there is a huge outpouring of reports we may decide not to take any action.

I have to admit when I joined PI I was a little gun-ho in pulling back posters, until one of my fellow mods pointed out to me that one of the guiding tenets of our charter is around welcoming opinions, I still stumble on that. Basically my over-action was having the effect of stilting the flow of threads.

Please do continue to report any posts you have an issue with ideally calling out specifically what your concern is - as above it makes our judgement easier. Unfortunately due to the level of activity we just cannot respond to posters who do report threads with what the specific action taken is (or is not). But please rest assured that we each get the alerts and as soon as is possible jump in to review the whole thread to ensure we do not make a judgement call on an out of context post (again been there done that had my hand slapped by the Admins).

If you find a poster is continually going over the line then please PM the mods (ideally cc us all as due to our own activities not all of us are online at any one time).

For some of the stickier posts action may not be immediate - some of these we discuss internally getting a level consensus on the action required.

Dudess - sorry you feel this way, I do miss reading your input but I do respect your choice and know where you are coming from on that.

Wibbs

Having been a mod there in a previous life for a few years(and PI/RI making up a quarter of all my posts since I joined) I can say it can be a hard line to draw at times. It was for me anyway. That said I personally found it the easiest forum I've modded, but that was because I was heavily engaged with it at the time. I posted way more than I moderated. IMHO it's a forum that needs a delicate and personal touch and engagement with the thread(s) and users, regulars and passers by in question. Again for me it's wasn't a forum that could be done by remote modding, just checking reported posts kinda thing. This takes a lot of time though.

Personally I tried to avoid official warnings and bannings except for real asshats(of which there were sadly too many). Usually dropped in a "ah c'mon folks lets dial it back" to give people more slack to let them express what they actually meant. They usually did too.

Text can often come across badly even as belligerent when the person actually doesn't mean it that way. Emotive subjects really bring this out. Generally I've found people to be OK, generally sympathetic and helpful, but sometimes that needs to be focused a bit more to bring that out more clearly.

That said when I've lurked recently I have noted slightly more of a hint of nastiness in some responses. Not to the same degree as Dudess and maybe not nastiness. Wrong word. Maybe a feeling of more "Oh FFS cop on" type posts? Bear in mind that's vague lurking on my part, so most likely doesn't reflect the everyday reality of the forum(s). Must lurk more :)

Either way that's not the mods if such a change however subtle has happened. Any forum is all about the community of users. They drive forums and directions forums take, especially in subtle ways like that. So if ye see issues coming up, then as minidazzler and Otis said, report the posts. I can tell you PI mods work like Trojans, but it's a fast moving forum and it's easy to miss subtle crapola because of that workload. I defo know I dropped the ball many times. I relied on the quality of reported posts along with my co mods and my own reading of threads pretty much equally.

TL;DR The community drives a forum and if the community want change transmit that feeling to the mods, by reported posts or mod PM's

Princess Peach

I have noticed a bit of a tough love attitude with some posters lately. The ones that bug me the most are "Just dump him now and move on" or "Get over it, you are over-reacting" responses. Easy to say to someone without considering at all their life.

And while these responses may not be helpful, they aren't really breaking any rules. Mods do step in when the line gets crossed. There are some posters who seem to want to post on every thread going, often giving what in my opinion is bad advice. Seems like they want to post for the sake of it, rather than having actual advice to give based on personal experience or whatever. But not sure there is anything that can really be done about that.

I don't think there is any problem with the moderation of the forum, just with the attitude of some posters. But I really can't see any solution to it. Can't really put in the charter, "Only nicely spoken, gentle responses please."

Morag

I have noticed a trend in threads getting harsh replies, but it can be hard to tell if they are helpful or not.

Wibbs

Princess Peach wrote:

The ones that bug me the most are "Just dump him now and move on" or "Get over it, you are over-reacting" responses.

TBH they were pretty common "in my day" too PP. I seem to recall us actually discussing it among the mods and I recall taking a couple of posters to task over it. Maybe the incidence has cranked up? I dunno, like I said these days I tend to lurk, so I'm only getting a tiny glimmer of what's the likely reality. All too easy to pull an opinion yea or nay doing that so probably wrong on my part.

Sharrow wrote: »

I have noticed a trend in threads getting harsh replies, but it can be hard to tell if they are helpful or not.

Maybe a general vibe of the times S? I've seen a little more of this in the real world too. People are (naturally) edgier? There does seem to be more of a gulf between the "first world problems" meme and individuals genuine responses to the world. I even find myself doing it way more than is comfortable for me deep down. I miss the old wibbs :). Maybe we're all trying to square the circle of these sometime stressful days and that's where the harshness is coming from?

Morag

or maybe it's a critical mass thing, when the site was smaller such replies were fewer but now that there are more posters the % is the same but the numbers are greater, if you get my drift.
But I get your point wibbs, it can come across very shaudenfrueden, like telling someone to man up when you can't sort your own stuff may make some feel better themselves.
Don't know what can be done about it, dunno if it's possible to make the forum restricted access but still allow anon posting, or even if the PI mods would want, that, I'm sure they are the best people to spot trends if there is one.

Beruthiel

hoodwinked

It is useful to the PI Mods when users report posts they think unacceptable.
PI Mods cannot read every single comment in the forum and we rely on users to tip us off when something needs action.

P. Breathnach

Beruthiel wrote: »

... It is useful to the PI Mods when users report posts they think unacceptable....

I am the sort who is quite willing to report posts. I generally don't check to see what the mods have done about those reports, but my impression is that there is often a visible response, and I imagine that there might also be cases dealt with by PM between mod and user. So I think that bit works satisfactorily.

There are some things that vex me about the behaviour of some posters, but I don't keep notes to see if it is the same individuals repeatedly:
- being too blunt: people generally post in PI because they are troubled about something, and it is always safer to respond in gentle terms (the message content can be much the same: "you made a right fool of yourself" says no more than "your way of dealing with the situation might have been a mistake").
- not reading what OP says with sufficient attention: I see things like suggestions that OP take a certain course of action when the OP has said that he or she has already tried that, and that it didn't work.
- being too judgemental: where somebody has a relationship issue, some people are very quick to make an adverse judgement on the person who might be described as the non-posting party to the problem - along the lines of "forget him; he's a head-wrecker" when it is possible that the guy might not be, that all that is at issue is a misunderstanding or a communications difficulty.
- taking a you-should-be-like-me stance: people and situations differ, and it might not be helpful if I were to tell another person to deal with things in the way that I would; it might not work for them, or fit their circumstances.

It looks like a long list of gripes! On balance, I think PI actually works quite well, and is useful to many people. But very few things are so good that they cannot be improved.

I see that it could be difficult for the mods to deal in-thread with the things I mention; discussions could become fractured. If the mods had the time and energy, it might be useful to use PM to give some guidance to posters who get things wrong.

Beruthiel

P. Breathnach wrote: »

my impression is that there is often a visible response

Deliberately so, in order that all posters learn what is and isn't acceptable.

Wibbs

P. Breathnach wrote: »

- not reading what OP says with sufficient attention: I see things like suggestions that OP take a certain course of action when the OP has said that he or she has already tried that, and that it didn't work.

That one has always been a biggy PB. It was and still would be my biggest personal bugbear. :mad: Pain in the bum anywhere, but in PI a real irritation. The amount of times we saw a post coming immediately after the OP gave more information and that poster had clearly not read it... I've seen it with the very next post. That or you'd get the "I've not read the whole thread but..." people(I'd prefer a stronger word). You might understand it on a 6 page thread, but I've seen that on the first or second page of a thread. At one point I suggested, not entirely in jest, that anyone who typed "I've not read the whole thread but..." should be banned on general principle. If they have neither the cop on, nor common courtesy... :mad: *Breathe* :D

it might be useful to use PM to give some guidance to posters who get things wrong.

That can be counterproductive though PB, never mind the extra workload. Some people just don't get why they're coming across as insensitive knobheads(even if they're not meaning to) and may get even more antsy. Double this for the "I've been to the school of hard knocks" types. Better on thread IMH, more open and serves to broadcast the reasoning to more people.

P. Breathnach

Beruthiel wrote: »

Deliberately so, in order that all posters learn what is and isn't acceptable.

I recognise the merit in that approach, but if the mods tried to address every post that was a little bit off (rather than egregiously off) it could look a bit too picky and precious. It's all about finding the right balance, and I think the mod team is doing pretty well at that.

Wibbs wrote: »

...
That can be counterproductive though PB, never mind the extra workload. Some people just don't get why they're coming across as insensitive knobheads(even if they're not meaning to) and may get even more antsy. Double this for the "I've been to the school of hard knocks" types. Better on thread IMH, more open and serves to broadcast the reasoning to more people.

Fair enough. Your experience as a mod trumps my opinion as a user.

Might is be useful if a mod posted a link to this thread in PI? It might educate some participants.

Beruthiel

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Might is be useful if a mod posted a link to this thread in PI? It might educate some participants.

Considering that most people don't even bother to read the charter, how many do you think will bother reading a link to here?

P. Breathnach

Beruthiel wrote: »

Considering that most people don't even bother to read the charter, how many do you think will bother reading a link to here?

Seventeen.

Wibbs

there's an optimist

tbh

a post I made back in 2010:

tbh wrote: »

the op isn't talking about advice, imo.

Advice is a series of steps the person with the problem can take to resolve the problem.

What the OP is talking about is the scenario where someone says "I've done something stupid" and everybody goes "how the hell could you be so stupid?"

that's not advice, all that does is discourage others who may be reading from sharing their experiences.

unfortunately, it's always been the case and probably always will be the case.

hoodwinked

to be fair i know the mods cannot read every line of every post ( im not sure how it could be fixed maybe more mods could be added temporarily to solve that?) and i respect the time they give up to do their job, its not easy.

i just would maybe say that rather then an in thread mod warning, which may alert others it is not acceptable behavior, but doesn't help the op when the offending post is there collecting more and more 'thanks', that maybe harsh/offending posts could be edited or removed, i think this would stop the people who hide so to speak behind the 'thanks' button.

i have seen some of these harsh posts or charter breaking posts infracted on thread by a mod, you come back a day later they have 5 thanks added to the offensive post. That has got to hurt an op who not only gets an ear bashing from a poster but then see's 5 extra people agree with the harsh ear bashing after a mod has said its unacceptable, considering you have to be logged in to thank a post these are registered members, who have a duty to read a charter, then ignoring a mod warning.

the fact some of these mod warnings also come on the next page doesn't help either considering as mentioned people tend not to read the op (also a gripe of mine ) or the first page even, so how will they see the mod warning a page or two later? could the offending posts not have the mod warning added to them rather then a separate post?


im not taking notes by any means, i guess its one of those things, once you see it, you see it everywhere, and it annoyed me so much i came here to ask if anyone else noticed it?

these may be little things, and like i said i know the mods are very busy, but these little changes may make a big difference to the posters who use PI.

P. Breathnach

hoodwinked wrote: »

... could the offending posts not have the mod warning added to them rather then a separate post?...

There is something to be said for that. It also assists in making clear to others what is unacceptable in PI. If the mod warning is eight posts later, many people will not take the trouble to look back to see what was wrong.

Beruthiel

hoodwinked wrote: »

to be fair i know the mods cannot read every line of every post ( im not sure how it could be fixed maybe more mods could be added temporarily to solve that?)

hoodwinked,
No Mod on this site is expected to read every single thread in the forums they moderate.
All mods ask that the users report offending posts. That is how this site is run.
The day we ask someone to become a Mod and request that they read every single thread, is the day we no longer have any Mods on this site.

could the offending posts not have the mod warning added to them rather then a separate post?

That suggestion has some merit and I shall discuss the pros and cons with my fellow mods.

Wibbs

Maybe disabling thanks in PI/RI might be a discussion worth having among yerselves too B? Dunno if it would make that much of a diff, but it might?

Beruthiel

Thanks has a useful place in PI. It shows the OP how many other people agree with the comment.

Wibbs

Oh I agree B. I personally wouldn't see it as a bad thing, merely a suggestion for discussion among yourselves. And a wider discussion about users thanking posts that were beyond the pale and how that might be navigated.

P. Breathnach

Beruthiel wrote: »

...
That suggestion has some merit and I shall discuss the pros and cons with my fellow mods.

One of the cons is that other participants might not notice a mod edit on a post that is a few places above the newest post in a thread.

So whichever way you do it, there are people who will not learn from it because they don't notice or don't pay attention.

Wibbs

In which case PB I'd say ban em. If they don't read a clear mod post then they're not bothering to read the whole (usually personally serious to someone) thread before hitting reply. Two birds, one stone.

P. Breathnach

Wibbs wrote: »

In which case PB I'd say ban em. If they don't read a clear mod post then they're not bothering to read the whole (usually personally serious to someone) thread before hitting reply. Two birds, one stone.

Because much of the stuff in PI is very important to the people who come there seeking help, I'd be in favour of a fairly tough policy on banning people. Perhaps just a tad less ruthless than is implicit in your post.

[Just an observation: I gather that "unreg" posts are pre-moderated, so a response to an OP might be rendered irrelevant by a follow-up post from the OP. It sometimes creates an impression of confusion, but I think that people can live with that.]