Gay Marriage and Human Rights

oldrnwisr

Peregrinus wrote: »

I’ll be genuinely delighted to be proved wrong on this. I haven’t read the report you link to (and I will) but one point immediately occurs to me. It’s not enough that the survey sample would include some adoptive families; it would need to break out the data about the adoptive families and compare it with (a) data for the biological families, and (b) data for adoptive-but-straight families. And there would need to be enough adoptive gay families in the survey population for the conclusions to be statistically robust. And, ideally, I’d also like to study separately the data for families where one parent was adoptive and the other biological, and those where both parents were adoptive.

OK, as you wish. In September 2010 the adoption law in Florida which prohibited homosexual adoption was struck down by the Supreme Court. A little background first though. Prior to this case, homosexual people could become legal guardians of children and foster parents. However, they were categorically excluded from adoption. This is unlike people with criminal histories, histories of substance abuse, physical or mental disability and chronic medical conditions, which were reviewed on a case-by-case basis. A case was taken on the basis that such a categorical exclusion was a violation of the equal protection afforded to all persons under Article 1, Section 2 of the Florida constitution. The plaintiff in the case was a homosexual male who was a licensed foster parent in the state of Florida. He took into care two children who were placed in state care as a result of neglect. The review of his foster care showed that the children had "healed in his care and were now thriving". However, when he applied to adopt the children he was prohibited and so challenged the constitutionality of the statute.
The Department for Children and Families argued against the motion. As far as the constitutionality of the statute was concerned the department argued that the rational basis test for the statute was upheld since:

"Instead, the Department argues that there is a rational basis for the prohibition on homosexual adoption because children will have better role models, and face less discrimination, if they are placed in non-homosexual households, preferably with a husband and wife as the parents."

(Coincidentally this is the angle you seem to be taking)

However, in passing judgement the judge found:

"The quality and breadth of research available, as well as the results of the studies performed about gay parenting and children of gay parents, is robust and has provided the basis for a consensus in the field. Many well renowned, regarded and respected professionals have [produced] methodologically sound longitudinal and cross-sectional studies into hundreds of reports. Some of the longitudinal studies have tracked children for six, ten and fourteen years. The starting ages of the children in the longitudinal studies has varied from birth, six to ten years old and followed them throughout childhood, adolescence and into adulthood. The studies and reports are published in many well respected peer reviewed journals including the Journal of Child Development, the Journal of Family Psychology, the Journal of Child Psychology, and the Journal of Child Psychiatry. Each of the studies and hundreds of reports also withstood the rigorous peer review process and were tested statistically, rationally and methodologically by seasoned professionals prior to publication. In addition to the volume, the body of research is broad; comparing children raised by lesbian couples to children raised by married heterosexual couples; children raised by lesbian parents from birth to children raised by heterosexual married couples from birth; children raised by single homosexuals to children raised by single heterosexuals; and children adopted by homosexual parents to those raised by homosexual biological parents, to name a few. These reports and studies find that there are no differences in the parenting of homosexuals or the adjustment of their children. These conclusions have been accepted, adopted and ratified by the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatry Association, the American Pediatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Child Welfare League of America and the National Association of Social Workers. As a result, based on the robust nature of the evidence available in the field, this Court is satisfied that the issue is so far beyond dispute that it would be irrational to hold otherwise; the best interests of children are not preserved by prohibiting homosexual adoption."

I think the conclusion of the court is pretty self-explanatory but I have highlighted the relevant portions for you. The precise argument you made in relation to adopted children was overwhelmingly rejected by the court on the basis of the evidence and testimony provided.

Third District Court of Appeal, State of Florida, Docket No. 3D08-3044

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not at all. Regardless of the age at which the child is adopted, he will sooner or later be cognizant of being adopted. All adoptive children face the issue of dealing with the fact that they are adopted, and it’s not uncommon for those adopted in infancy to deal with the issue (in ways distressing to both themselves and their families) in their teens.

In my last post I did ask you to present research to support your assertion. Having detailed evidence for you in support of my points I think it only fair that you reciprocate. How does the issues which these children have to face differ because of the sexual orientation of their parents?

Peregrinus wrote: »

I’m not concerned about the disadvantage to the parents; I’m concerned about the disadvantage to the child.

Well as it happens I am. The two are not mutually exclusive ideas. The legal rights of parents are being trampled on because of their sexual orientation and resolving this issue does not compromise the best interests of the child.

Peregrinus wrote: »

The issue here, as I keep stressing, is not homosexuality; it’s adoption. And it’s not the concerns of parents; it’s the experiences of children. And we do know - there’s plenty of research on this - that adoptive children can be hugely burdened by a sense of difference that has lasting implications for them and their self-image and self-esteem. And the question of placing a child with a gay family has to be considered in this context, if we care about the interests of the child.

Where have I ever said that sexual orientation impacts on anybody’s ability to be a parent? You’re making this stuff up. For the record, my niece is being raised by her straight mother and her (out) gay father (long story, don’t ask) and I am delighted about this, and she is a beautiful girl who is being wonderfully raised, which is just what I would have expected. I have absolutely no problems with gay parenting.

At the risk of repeating myself, where is your evidence for this. You are making the argument that adoption presents such a different set of problems that neither a comparison between same-sex parents and opposite-sex parents where the children are biologically related nor studies of opposite-sex adoptive parents are valid when considering same-sex adoptive couples. How do you make such a determination?

Peregrinus wrote: »

Even if we grant that, so what? If that’s a reality, it’s a reality, and we must take account of it in adoption decisions. We are placing children in the real world, not in an ideal world that has yet to be achieved, and just because you deplore aspects of the real world doesn't mean that those aspects will have no impact on an adoptive child.

So we should continue to deny gay people their legal rights because christian bigotry is a reality? Really?

the culture of deference

oldrnwisr wrote: »

So we should continue to deny gay people their legal rights because christian bigotry is a reality? Really?

The christians really are muppets.

Whats the difference in 2 couples, 2 gay men and 2 gay woman marrying each other, applying for adoption and then seperating.

How many evangenical christians are gay?

The bible has no problem with lesbians.