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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*
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First, the exchange from which you quoted my post was (bizarrely!) about whether or not the exchequer would be better off by 40 million if they unexpectedly acquired 40 million! Another poster made an irrelevant (to this point) reference to waste.But as we are discussing a tax which is being introduced rightly/wrongly as an introduction to a property tax,necessery to alleviate the debt/lower borrowing for our country,then I think the fact that this "waste" of money is still happening is relevent.
Secondly, addressing waste is important but it is not relevant to the HHC. Can you make an argument that there will be less waste if we retain the old indirect funding mode for LA than if we adopt the direct funding mode? Addressing waste is done by examining where money is spent, not where it is raised.
You could argue that unemployment, or our borrowing rates or this upcoming treaty are relevant in terms of addressing our deficit but I don’t see how they are relevant to whether we adopt the HHC or not.
Do we? Can you cite any of my posts (or anyone else’s for that matter) to support this claim?Remember, these folk support the continued borrowing of €400m a week in order to perpetuate the waste that you talk of.
Oh, and Freddie, any chance of an answer to my question? You know, 20 billion deficit? Instant adjustment, yes or no?
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First, the exchange from which you quoted my post was (bizarrely!) about whether or not the exchequer would be better off by 40 million if they unexpectedly acquired 40 million! Another poster made an irrelevant (to this point) reference to waste.
Secondly, addressing waste is important but it is not relevant to the HHC. Can you make an argument that there will be less waste if we retain the old indirect funding mode for LA than if we adopt the direct funding mode? Addressing waste is done by examining where money is spent, not where it is raised.
You could argue that unemployment, or our borrowing rates or this upcoming treaty are relevant in terms of addressing our deficit but I don’t see how they are relevant to whether we adopt the HHC or not.
Do we? Can you cite any of my posts (or anyone else’s for that matter) to support this claim?
Oh, and Freddie, any chance of an answer to my question? You know, 20 billion deficit? Instant adjustment, yes or no?
Ya see Lugha. Case proven by the above post. Waste is not relevant to the "household charge"; the €400m a week borrowings are not relevant. The High PS/CS wages and "entitlements" are not relevant. According to you and yours.
And how many times do you have to have a question answered? In the private sector a company gets into trouble. It's expenditure cannot exceed its income. So swinging pay cuts and redundancies are enforced. I've been a part of it. It isn't pretty. But it happens. And that's what needs to happen in Ireland's PS/CS. Call it "instant adjustment" if you want. But this is real world economics Something you appear to have very little understanding of.
Oh, and regarding your new question:
The Irish government needs to borrow about €20bn per annum (or around €380m a week) in order to run the country i.e. our total expenditure exceeds our total income by €20,000m.
This is another economic fact to which you appear to be completely oblivious. And as for 'citing your posts to substantiate this'? Give me a break. There are people (myself included) pointing out the glaringly obvious, but, in true Public Sector form, you want to wish it away. Not gonna happen.
The reality is that the Government has to reduce Public Sector cast and wages in line with European norms. There is no other way.
Here's another little nugget for you:
http://pdosullivan.wordpress.com/tag/silvio-berlusconi/
We saw the latest set of Exchequer Returns from the Department of Finance earlier this week, providing a snapshop of Ireland’s public finances to the end of Q3. At first glance, my initial reaction was: “Austerity? What austerity?”
Total voted expenditure by the Irish government in the first 9 months of 2011 was €33.4bn versus €33.2bn in the same period last year. And no, this does not include the €10.7bn paid to recapitalise Irish financial institutions in the year to date. Ireland borrowed €20bn in the first 9 months of the year, which will cost a ballpark €1bn a year in interest payments annually, or roughly double the year-to-date spend on the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. The longer we delay the necessary fiscal consolidation the more of our budget will be eaten up by interest payments at the expense of frontline services.0 -
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How do you make that out Freddie? I have consistently made clear that I do not think PS wages and SW payment levels can remain at levels set in boom / bubble times. My question to you (which you have yet to answer) relates to how the adjustment is made, and in particular, if you would have opted for a solution without the IMF / ECB and adjusted for the 20 billion deficit in one swoop.Yourself, Lugha, & Co. have consistently driven your PS agenda through this thread like a steamroller, with scant regard for economics or the world outside the Public Sector.
Of course you did not (can not?) answer this and you attempt to disguise your non-response with the most brazen use of the straw man argument I have ever seen.
Not only do you address a different question that the one I put to you (I ask how to deal with the deficit, not why it had to be dealt with) but you go further and completely misrepresent my position on the “why” question, suggesting that I am against PS / SW reform when the opposite is the case!!!
Not to worry! I’m in no rush. Take all the time you need to come up with an answer!
(Of course, the longer you take the more suspicious I become that you didn't really think your master plan through ) 0 -
How do you make that out Freddie? I have consistently made clear that I do not think PS wages and SW payment levels can remain at levels set in boom / bubble times. My question to you (which you have yet to answer) relates to how the adjustment is made, and in particular, if you would have opted for a solution without the IMF / ECB and adjusted for the 20 billion deficit in one swoop.
More than likely. At the ver least I would have painted the picture required for the people involved and proceeded with a structured plan to reduce costs.straw manNot only do you address a different question that the one I put to you (I ask how to deal with the deficit, not why it had to be dealt with) but you go further and completely misrepresent my position on the “why” question, suggesting that I am against PS / SW reform when the opposite is the case!!!
I refer you to my answer above. Like the rest of your kind, you dance around the core issues, while lecturing people for not paying the "household charge". But hey - you're consistent!Not to worry! I’m in no rush. Take all the time you need to come up with an answer! (Of course, the longer you take the more suspicious I become that you didn't really think your master plan through )
I think have answered you more than adequately at this point - although your blinkered view allows you to deploy the "does not compute " PS option.;)
Now let me ask you: what's your "master plan" to eliminate the deficit - without forcing the cost on the already-burdened Private Sector workforce?0 -
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Finally, an answer! It took you long enough, are you sure you don’t work in the public sector?More than likely.
So you would have made an instant adjustment of 20 billion. And what would you say to the majority who think the economy could not sustain a blow like that and might have turned us into a third world country? Or is that of no great importance as long as manners was put in them PS workers?
My plan is the same as most people’s plan, a combination of new taxes and yes, extensive cuts in public spending, in particular in PS wages and SW over time. And the HHC / property tax is a fairly sensible charge to introduce towards this end.Now let me ask you: what's your "master plan" to eliminate the deficit
I know this will shock and disappoint you, and you possibly won’t even believe me, but there are actually some people posting here who are wailing about our budget deficit but are opposing measures introduced by the government to help address it 0 -
Finally, an answer! It took you long enough, are you sure you don’t work in the public sector?
So you would have made an instant adjustment of 20 billion. And what would you say to the majority who think the economy could not sustain a blow like that and might have turned us into a third world country? Or is that of no great importance as long as manners was put in them PS workers?
My plan is the same as most people’s plan, a combination of new taxes and yes, extensive cuts in public spending, in particular in PS wages and SW over time. And the HHC / property tax is a fairly sensible charge to introduce towards this end.
I know this will shock and disappoint you, and you possibly won’t even believe me, but there are actually some people posting here who are wailing about our budget deficit but are opposing measures introduced by the government to help address it
Protesting is the word I'd use Lugha. Maybe if a simultaneous attempt had been made to arrest the PS/CS/SW gravy trains people might not have had such an issue with €100. But when you don't do any of the above, and then exempt 160,000 households from a household charge then what else can you expect really?
BTW when you say "over time" how much time are you talking, given that we're borrowing €20Bn a year to fund these farces?
And still no comment on post #2974..............0 -
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This discussion has been closed.
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