Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

jumpguy

Ghandee wrote: »

I would be delighted to see this current regime embarrassed.
I won't shy away from that fact, they have proven themselves to be no better than the last shower they replaced, lies, broken promises, stealth taxes, and that Hogan fella, parading around town threatening to change laws so he can break laws whilst at the same time, avoiding the same laws which were applicable to him in the country he he's a holiday home in yet all the time, reminding us that the law of the land must be obeyed.

So yes, I'll take great delight in a no vote, it will Piss off the smug gits who think they are out masters, not our servants, and it will let our EU OVERLORDS know that Ireland will be pushed around no longer. Perhaps then, they'll offer some debt forgiveness, and stop asking us the Irish tax payers to pay for the mistakes their banks made. (the
ECB admitted it this day last week)

So are these your actual reasons for voting no now, or is this another statement on how you'll be delighted to spite the evil politicians? Lest I'm mistaken again.

Phill Ewinn

I'm going along with Ganley on this one. Negotiate with me, then ask me to vote. We need rid of our debts and/or rid of some of our politicians, bankers and civil servants.

Do me a deal, maybe I'll vote yes.

jumpguy

tayto lover wrote: »

Enda will use that sort of response to scaremonger too.

Okay, so besides political humiliation, what do you think will happen if we vote no, and what will happen if we vote yes?

Also, why do you think the government would act contrary to the good of the nation? What benefit would that be of to them? If they fúck us all up and the economy doesn't recover, they know they'll be set to be the next FF.

tayto lover

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

I'm going along with Ganley on this one. Negotiate with me, then ask me to vote. We need rid of our debts and/or rid of some of our politicians, bankers and civil servants.

Do me a deal, maybe I'll vote yes.

Our crowd wouldn't have the balls to do that.

tayto lover

jumpguy wrote: »

Okay, so besides politically humiliation, what do you think will happen if we vote no, and what will happen if we vote yes?

Also, why do you think the government would act contrary to the good of the nation? What benefit would that be of to them? If they fúck us all up and the economy doesn't recover, they know they'll be set to be the next FF.

They will be the next FF either way.
I will read the Treaty and vote accordingly but there are many who will vote No just to have a dig. People are angry and are being lumped on with extra taxes to pay for the sins of others so many will vote No.

Ghandee

jumpguy wrote: »

So are these your actual reasons for voting no now, or is this another statement on how you'll be delighted to spite the evil politicians? Lest I'm mistaken again.

The last sentence of the last paragraph would be one reason, yes.

Debt forgiveness were private losses were converted into sovereign debts, then we'll sit down and chat about things.

Don't offer that, then shag off.

The current deficit is unsustainable at the minute regardless, so Ireland's future looks bleak while the debt hangs around our necks (a debt that doesn't belong to the Tax payers)

dxhound2005

If the Treaty is not ratified by Ireland I cannot see that making any difference to the upcoming property tax or being of any help to those who are breaking the law by not paying the Household Charge. If there is a change of Government in 2016 or before the new parties in power will inherit property tax and metered water and will not abolish them. The new hate figure will be the Minister for Finance from Sinn Fein or the Socialist Party (unlikely I know but some people think it will happen).

On the Treaty the Government did not need to hold a referendum. They could have passed it in the Dail and let someone challenge it's constitutionality through the Supreme Court. And anyway it goes ahead in the other countries if it is rejected here, they do not need us to say Yes.

Ghandee

This govt will be guaranteed their fat pensions after their (prob) short stint in office.

Your conning yourself if you think they'll give us a second thought when their reign is over.

The_Joker

Politicians are like nappies
They need to be changed often and for the same reason!

jumpguy

tayto lover wrote: »

but there are many who will vote No just to have a dig. People are angry and are being lumped on with extra taxes to pay for the sins of others so many will vote No.

Sadly, I've no doubt that'll happen. I also think, as was in Lisbon, the Yes campaign could do just as much damage as the No campaign by exaggerating the benefits. For example, "Lisbon for Jobs"...Lisbon itself had little to do with jobs, it was about streamlining the bureaucracy of an ever-expanding EU. But I guess you really don't have the space on a placard for in-depth discussion about it...

Ghandee wrote: »

The last sentence of the last paragraph would be one reason, yes.

Debt forgiveness were private losses were converted into sovereign debts, then we'll sit down and chat about things.

Don't offer that, then shag off.

The current deficit is unsustainable at the minute regardless, so Ireland's future looks bleak while the debt hangs around our necks (a debt that doesn't belong to the Tax payers)

I'm afraid this is not really a strong bargaining chip at all. The EU won't give a bog, they can move on without us this time. If you are suggesting we hold the gun to the head of our own government and say "look, we don't want to pay back this debt we incurred bailing out banks", then the treaty would probably be pointless anyway. We'd have to default for the treaty to be accepted, and by then the Euro would probably be past the point of no return as far as stabilisation goes.

Phill Ewinn

tayto lover wrote: »

Our crowd wouldn't have the balls to do that.

As people have said before. They're up to their necks in it. Wouldn't you want a getaway vehicle if you just robbed a bank?

The difference is we're being robbed. By the past and current government. They're trying to get away with what they've done. A no vote will get us attention from ''Europe''. Then we can speak up.

dxhound2005

Ghandee wrote: »

This govt will be guaranteed their fat pensions after their (prob) short stint in office.

Your conning yourself if you think they'll give us a second thought when their reign is over.

You cannot know the outcome of the next election. It is possible that this Government will turn the country round by taking the necessary harsh decisions now and be in a position in 2016 to preside over a much better set of circumstances.

Phill Ewinn

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You cannot know the outcome of the next election. It is possible that this Government will turn the country round by taking the necessary harsh decisions now and be in a position in 2016 to preside over a much better set of circumstances.

Are you following this at all? FG voted in favour of the measures that got us into this mess. Why on earth would you believe they want to get us out of it?

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You cannot know the outcome of the next election. It is possible that this Government will turn the country round by taking the necessary harsh decisions now and be in a position in 2016 to preside over a much better set of circumstances.

I was referring to the suggestion made by jumpguy that the govt wouldn't want to leave a mess behind for future generations.

I hope your right about stabilisation in the future, but almost every economist its predicting bad, very bad things for Ireland if it continues on the path it is headed.

It has been proven time and time again that a country cannot tax itself out of recession, yet our lads in charge are raising taxes left right and centre. They left income tax alone, but IMO that was only so they could raise other ones (vat for example) which would affect the pockets of everyone, not just the wage earner.

dxhound2005

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Are you following this at all? FG voted in favour of the measures that got us into this mess. Why on earth would you believe they want to get us out of it?

Broadening the tax base and providing for local services by having a recurring tax on property instead of depending on the vagaries of the housing market for stamp duty. And introducing water metering. Neither of these measures have made them too popular (at least on AH). But if anyone thinks that Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail the Socialist Party or anyone else will abolish these if they get in power forget it.

We have some track record with Sinn Fein. They opposed everything the Unionist Party and the SDLP did in the North but now that they are in power with the DUP they are doing exactly the same.

jumpguy

Ghandee wrote: »

They left income tax alone, but IMO that was only so they could raise other ones (vat for example) which would affect the pockets of everyone, not just the wage earner.

They left income tax alone so they could have a nice little sound bite back in the general election last year and get into government, as they did.

A foolish and populist decision, since income tax is the easiest way to implement tax and to regulate tax in proportion for different pay scales to make it fair, rather than this messy household charge and whatnot.

Phill Ewinn

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Broadening the tax base and providing for local services by having a recurring tax on property instead of depending on the vagaries of the housing market for stamp duty. And introducing water metering. Neither of these measures have made them too popular (at least on AH). But if anyone thinks that Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail the Socialist Party or anyone else will abolish these if they get in power forget it.

We have some track record with Sinn Fein. They opposed everything the Unionist Party and the SDLP did in the North but now that they are in power with the DUP they are doing exactly the same.

Could have just typed no. You on overtime?

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

They left income tax alone, but IMO that was only so they could raise other ones (vat for example) which would affect the pockets of everyone, not just the wage earner.

Broadining the tax base seems like a good idea to me.

Frank Black

jumpguy wrote: »

They left income tax alone so they could have a nice little sound bite back in the general election last year and get into government, as they did.

A foolish and populist decision, since income tax is the easiest way to implement tax and to regulate tax in proportion for different pay scales to make it fair, rather than this messy household charge and whatnot.

Increasing income tax effectively reduces the incentive for people to work. Not the best idea to encourage people to come off social welfare if work becomes available.
Increasing VAT reduces consumer confidence and encourages black market activity and cross border purchases.

It's generally accepted by most economists that a property tax will have less negative effects on an economy than income tax or VAT increases.
It's also less cyclical providing a steady and predictable income stream to the exchequer.

Noreen1

black francis wrote: »

Increasing income tax effectively reduces the incentive for people to work. Not the best idea to encourage people to come off social welfare if work becomes available.
.

If being the operative word.
Given the increase in unemployment levels, it's a rather poor argument, imo.

Meanwhile, people who are genuinely struggling to pay existing bills are having this justification used as an excuse to tax them further.

Freddie59

Interesting to see today that the saviours of Ireland (the IMF) are off busily borrowing money themselves.

How long can this merry-go-round last?

dvpower

Freddie59 wrote: »

Interesting to see today that the saviours of Ireland (the IMF) are off busily borrowing money themselves.

How long can this merry-go-round last?

Where the hell do you think the IMF got their money from?

Bottom line,

Every penny of every currency is loaned into existence, money is nothing but IOU's being passed between people, government and businesses.

If everyone repaid ALL their debts, money would disappear! POOF!!!

steve9859

dolanbaker wrote: »

Every penny of every currency is loaned into existence, money is nothing but IOU's being passed between people, government and businesses.

That is not sinister in itself though....that's how it has been since the very first coins were minted about 500BC to take the place of bartering. The simplest of coins is nothing other than an IOU created by the state for its citizens to pass around. It's just that the numbers have got too big and the coins have turned 'virtual'...

Edit: Off topic....sorry!!

gerryo777

tayto lover wrote: »

Our crowd wouldn't have the balls to do that.

They only have balls to tax the **** out of the home you live in.

Suppose they don't have to negotiate with bricks and mortar!

steve9859

steve9859 wrote: »

That is not sinister in itself though....that's how it has been since the very first coins were minted about 500BC to take the place of bartering. The simplest of coins is nothing other than an IOU created by the state for its citizens to pass around. It's just that the numbers have got too big and the coins have turned 'virtual'...

Edit: Off topic....sorry!!

It's the loaning at interest that's the problem. In a world of growth, the interest is paid by more loans.

We are now at the end of growth in the classical sense, some of this household charge is being used to just pay this interest in place of the non-existence of growth.

jaspertheghost

If you dont pay the charge or the fines that buld up over the years; if you decide to sell your house in say ten year could the government take whats owed from the price you get from your house???

dvpower

jaspertheghost wrote: »

If you dont pay the charge or the fines that buld up over the years; if you decide to sell your house in say ten year could the government take whats owed from the price you get from your house???

In the circumstance that you describe, not only could the state take the amount owing (plus interest and penalties ) from the sale, they must take it.

Wild Bill

dvpower wrote: »

In the circumstance that you describe, not only could the state take the amount owing (plus interest and penalties ) from the sale, they must take it.

Bilge. Based on the latest opinion poll by then the Govt will consist of parties who will abolish this obscenity from the current undemocratic Regime and forgive illegitimate debts.

Don't feel threatened by this fascist Regime - don't pay!

Wild Bill

And look....

I've been thanked by Phil

Thanks Big Guy! :cool: