Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

dvpower

robbie7730 wrote: »

So if one county had 100% employment, and another had 40% employment, you would find it interesting that the full employment one is more likely to pay newly introduced taxes, with no allowances made for ability to pay?


Or that cant afford newly introduced taxes as easily as those that cant wait to see this new tax increased. Its all so equally easy for everyone to pay, is`t it.

I hardly think 'ability to pay' was the main factor for most people who chose to dodge the €100 HHC.

Hijpo

not the ability to pay now, but the ability to pay the increases

dvpower

Hijpo wrote: »

not the ability to pay now, but the ability to pay the increases

The full property tax will have exemptions for low income households.

tayto lover

dvpower wrote: »

I hardly think 'ability to pay' was the main factor for most people who chose to dodge the €100 HHC.

Another bold assumption from the same camp who think that everyone had a never ending pot to take from. Silver spoons come to mind.

Bruthal

dvpower wrote: »

I hardly think 'ability to pay' was the main factor for most people who chose to dodge the €100 HHC.

Well you tell us what the main factor is then, since you linked welfare claimants etc with higher non payments, or pointed out the link anyway.

dxhound2005

dvpower wrote: »

I hardly think 'ability to pay' was the main factor for most people who chose to dodge the €100 HHC.

tayto lover wrote: »

Another bold assumption from the same camp who think that everyone had a never ending pot to take from. Silver spoons come to mind.

If someone genuinely couldn't get €100 together having had three months to do so how can they afford to own a house?

On this thread I can't remember anyone saying they can't pay but there are plenty saying they won't pay.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If someone genuinely couldn't get €100 together having had three months to do so how can they afford to own a house?

On this thread I can't remember anyone saying they can't pay but there are plenty saying they won't pay.

If the govt weren't so cloak and dagger about the whole thing, they wouldn't have got shown the resistance they did.

Refusal to inform the public on how much the hundred euro would undoubtedly rise to, which will be more than likely be a five to ten times increase (500-1000€) is where most people have problems signing up to this whole thing.

So, to sum it up.

Won't pay the hundred euro today, because I can't afford to pay the hundreds if not thousands it will increase to.

You can't take knickers off a bare backside!

Bruthal

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If someone genuinely couldn't get €100 together having had three months to do so how can they afford to own a house?

So unemployment increases/job losses only happened to non home owners then?

dvpower

robbie7730 wrote: »

So unemployment increases/job losses only happened to non home owners then?

Unemployment can't account for the majority of non payers. The numbers don't add up.

dvpower

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well you tell us what the main factor is then, since you linked welfare claimants etc with higher non payments, or pointed out the link anyway.

Opportunism.

bluesteel

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe his family would be happy that he put food on their table rather than on some German bondholder's table. People have gone to prison in the past for honourable purposes.

have you heard of a thing called the deficit?

Guess how much it is?

really, "Bondholder" - this country is bankrupt and the economically illiterate trot out this bondholder line like it's some sort of magic spell that make the books magically balance

You do realise that those bondholders are currently paying the pensions etc in this country!?

tayto lover

bluesteel wrote: »

have you heard of a thing called the deficit?

Guess how much it is?

really, "Bondholder" - this country is bankrupt and the economically illiterate trot out this bondholder line like it's some sort of magic spell that make the books magically balance

You do realise that those bondholders are currently paying the pensions etc in this country!?

We all know where its going. And you could have 20 household charges and it still won't be enough. We will default eventually anyway according to the vast majority of the economically literate.

bluesteel

tayto lover wrote: »

We will default eventually anyway according to the vast majority of the economically literate.

Well the market doesn't believe that - judging by bond yields - they've come down. It's quite clear you just don't want to pay and are making up excuses to justify cheating the state. It's no better than being a dole cheat.

tayto lover

bluesteel wrote: »

Well the market doesn't believe that - judging by bond yields - they've come down. It's quite clear you just don't want to pay and are making up excuses to justify cheating the state. It's no better than being a dole cheat.

Bull. If you read through the thread you will see exactly why I am refusing to pay. I am not repeating it again. I pay other taxes which are a lot higher than 100e and I have never signed on the dole in my life.

mikom

bluesteel wrote: »

Well the market doesn't believe that - judging by bond yields - they've come down. It's quite clear you just don't want to pay and are making up excuses to justify cheating the state. It's no better than being a dole cheat.

The same dole cheats that tayto lovers taxes support.
The same dole cheats that are probably living in local authority houses which are exempt from the charge........ whilst they hoover up more "services" in a day than a working man can use in a week.


Cut the waste before coming with the paw out again.

This is why I did not pay this crock of shit charge.

darkhorse

Hi Everyone,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Mr Kenny say on the evening news one night several weeks ago that the household charge was to go towards public libraries, parks and public places in general. Now where I'm confused is, I am living in a so called private estate, but in the middle of the estate is a big green area, which is belong to the council, but which we, the residents pay to have it maintained, grass cut etc. Would I be right in assuming that, it being a public area, that the household tax, which is purportedly going to the local authority, should partly be used for the maintenance of this public area, or should we keep paying an annual levy of fifty euro per household.
John:mad:

Bruthal

dvpower wrote: »

Opportunism.

I guess the non payers in them counties knew they would be the non payment leaders in terms of numbers, and took the opportunity not to pay. Very good.

Hard to believe people dependent on welfare payments might have more pressing things to pay for is it?. And the counties with the highest numbers of them will have the lowest payments of this new tax comes as a surprise to you does it?

Opportunism indeed. :pac:

dvpower

robbie7730 wrote: »

I guess the non payers in them counties knew they would be the non payment leaders in terms of numbers, and took the opportunity not to pay. Very good.

Hard to believe people dependent on welfare payments might have more pressing things to pay for is it?. And the counties with the highest numbers of them will have the lowest payments of this new tax comes as a surprise to you does it?

Opportunism indeed. :pac:

Even people wholly dependant on social welfare can afford €100 over a year. Of course the numbers of evaders are far greater than the numbers wholly dependant on social welfare, so there are a great deal of people who are much better off evading the tax.

They are evading it because it is easy to - one of the merits of the No campaign put forward by many No posters here was that to protest this tax, all you had to do is do nothing.
Simple opportunism.

Izzy Skint

dvpower wrote: »

Even people wholly dependant on social welfare can afford €100 over a year. Of course the numbers of evaders are far greater than the numbers wholly dependant on social welfare, so there are a great deal of people who are much better off evading the tax.

They are evading it because it is easy to - one of the merits of the No campaign put forward by many No posters here was that to protest this tax, all you had to do is do nothing.
Simple opportunism.

If you want to call it "opportunism" then that's your choice....the simple fact is that this tax could not be brought in without the publics' consent and help, they relied on people registering, so if you don't agree with it all you have to do is not register....simple
also, why do you assume that people on social welfare are worse off than those working?....believe me, I know many on SW and they are much better off than many working people. There is now a new phenomenon in this crap country that I call "the employment trap" , working people with families, mortgages, debts etc. working hard all week with little if nothing left once bills, fuel, expenses etc. are paid. They would be better off on the dole, except they can't quit their work because they would not get SW and they still have to pay their mortgage to keep their family home....THEY ARE TRAPPED....as the cost of living increases eg. gas, electricity, petrol, TAX INCREASES etc. they become more entrapped....."the employment trap".... we will be hearing a lot more of it in the very near future.

Wild Bill

dvpower wrote: »

Opportunism.

No.

Resistance to an illegitimate regime. Democracy is more important than economics.

dvpower

Izzy Skint wrote: »

....believe me, I know many on SW and they are much better off than many working people.

They can't use the 'I can't afford to pay my HHC' excuse then, can they?

Wild Bill wrote: »

Resistance to an illegitimate regime. Democracy is more important than economics.

I seem to recall democratic elections just last year.

Izzy Skint

dvpower wrote: »

They can't use the 'I can't afford to pay my HHC' excuse then, can they?


I seem to recall democratic elections just last year.

"better off" still does not mean they can afford to pay though, does it?....and what about when it increases to €500 or even €1,000 ?...can they use the "I can't afford to pay my HHC" then ?

democratic elections last year...there is nothing very democratic about screwing and threatening your own people.

Wild Bill

dvpower wrote: »

They can't use the 'I can't afford to pay my HHC' excuse then, can they?


I seem to recall democratic elections just last year.

Do you?

What's "democratic" about a system that allows massive rejection of FF policies to result in their implementation?

There is a crisis in Irish (and European) "democracy". When voters get one chance in five years to vote on existential issues and their vote can simply be thrashed by the establishment parties - that ain't democracy.

The election was democratic - the regime elected then abolished democracy in any meaningful sense. (Similar situation in Germany in the 1930s I believe)

The Russian or Chinese Governments better represents the will of their respective populations than the current Irish Regime.

Fact :cool:

tayto lover

The people rejected Fianna Fail in the elections because of their lies and corruption.
They elected Fine Gael / Labour on a platform of lies and false promises.

Both Governments are the same.

dvpower

Izzy Skint wrote: »

"better off" still does not mean they can afford to pay though, does it?....and what about when it increases to €500 or even €1,000 ?...can they use the "I can't afford to pay my HHC" then ?

There will be an income threshold when the full property tax comes into force that should deal with 'ability to pay'.
The number of property owners who genuinely can't afford €100 over a year is very small.

Izzy Skint wrote: »

democratic elections last year...there is nothing very democratic about screwing and threatening your own people.

Raising taxes is a pretty fundemental power we give to a democratically elected government.

dvpower

Wild Bill wrote: »

Do you?

What's "democratic" about a system that allows massive rejection of FF policies to result in their implementation?

There is a crisis in Irish (and European) "democracy". When voters get one chance in five years to vote on existential issues and their vote can simply be thrashed by the establishment parties - that ain't democracy.

The election was democratic - the regime elected then abolished democracy in any meaningful sense. (Similar situation in Germany in the 1930s I believe)

The Russian or Chinese Governments better represents the will of their respective populations than the current Irish Regime.

Fact :cool:

tayto lover wrote: »

The people rejected Fianna Fail in the elections because of their lies and corruption.
They elected Fine Gael / Labour on a platform of lies and false promises.

Both Governments are the same.

In four years time you'll get your chance to replace them, but somehow I doubt that they'll be replaced with your own preferred choices.

Wild Bill

dvpower wrote: »

In four years time you'll get your chance to replace them, but somehow I doubt that they'll be replaced with your own preferred choices.

Yeah, because whoever is elected will simply ignore their mandate and implement establishment policies for the following five years? :mad:

So, in your view "democracy" consists of allowing the people to vote every 5 years for policies which are then totally ignored.

As I say - the Russian and Chinese Governments better represent the will of the majority than the Irish Regime.

Fact :cool:

Hijpo

dvpower wrote: »

There will be an income threshold when the full property tax comes into force that should deal with 'ability to pay'.
The number of property owners who genuinely can't afford €100 over a year is very t.

Does anyone know what this threshold will be? Or will they make that up as they go along aswell?

Bruthal

dvpower wrote: »

Even people wholly dependant on social welfare can afford €100 over a year.

Speaking from experience are you?

Of course the numbers of evaders are far greater than the numbers wholly dependant on social welfare, so there are a great deal of people who are much better off evading the tax.

They are evading it because it is easy to - one of the merits of the No campaign put forward by many No posters here was that to protest this tax, all you had to do is do nothing.
Simple opportunism.

So if it did go up to 5000 a year (unlikely but as example), would you have any objection what so ever, or would you just accept its a new tax, and pay because its a tax?

kippy

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If someone genuinely couldn't get €100 together having had three months to do so how can they afford to own a house?

On this thread I can't remember anyone saying they can't pay but there are plenty saying they won't pay.

The issue is not the €100.
The issues are numerous.
1. It has to be asked, were this charge to pay for local amenities and services, why is it only homeowners that have to pay it? Are homeowners the only beneficiaries of local amenities and services?

2. While the charge is a "paltry" €100 this year, once you pay that charge your details are available, rather easily, for any subsequent charges (be it water or increased housing charges).

3. The charge will increase (rather drasticilly, I might add) in the future. While there may be some deductions for "low" income households, even those on "mid" incomes will find it tough to pay between €800-€2000 (no idea what the charge will be) of their net income towards this, which these mid income earners get hammered for almost every other increase as well.

4. What, if anything, will local authorities do to ensure this money isnt wasted, as has happened in almost every local authority over the past few years. People have yet to see any changes in the operation of some local authorities.


Ultimately, I paid the charge, after the deadline, because, afterall, it is a tax etc etc. I am entirely unhappy with how the whole thing has been handled, and I have absolutely no confidence that this money will be used for what it is said it will be used for. I have no confidence in a fair implementation of this charge in the years ahead and whatever money goes into this charge will be taken directly out of my families exceptionally limited spending power annually.
My wife and I are in what one would call "good" jobs, but the costs keep mounting, the wages keep dropping.