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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #3962
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Careful now DV, your starting to sound like the ancestors of your German overlords.

    Btw, taken to court and what?

    Its already been stated by the govt that no one will be jailed for non payment, if you refuse to pay a fine that came about because of non payment, jail wouldn't be possible either (didn't the govt say no one will be Jailed?)

    Yes they did say that but if a court was to fine someone for not paying the charge, and then this fine went unpaid well that would be a different kettle of fish as they would be directly ignoring a court order, so they could be jailed for contempt of court (or something similiar) and not for non payment of the HHC.


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    #3963
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    I fail to see how any union will differentiate between the HHC being deducted at source, and any fine related to non payment of the HHC being deducted from source.

    Either way, its a sum of money deducted at source for the same thing.


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    #3964
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Thank you. That answers my question (I think).


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    #3965
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Yes they did say that but if a court was to fine someone for not paying the charge, and then this fine went unpaid well that would be a different kettle of fish as they would be directly ignoring a court order, so they could be jailed for contempt of court (or something similiar) and not for non payment of the HHC.

    But the fine only arose from non payment of the HHC, something the govt said no one would be jailed for.

    This is irrelevant anyway, our jails are overcrowded as it is, doubt they will get another 700,000 + crammed into them for non payment of the HHC, or any fine not being paid that only came about because of non payment of the HHC.


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    #3966
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    But the fine only arose from non payment of the HHC, something the govt said no one would be jailed for.

    This is irrelevant anyway, our jails are overcrowded as it is, doubt they will get another 700,000 + crammed into them for non payment of the HHC, or any fine not being paid that only came about because of non payment of the HHC.

    But a court wont let someone directly ignore a court order and they wont give two f**ks what Enda and Co. say about jailing someone, the court system would be screwed if Joe public decided they could just ignore court orders whenever they wanted.

    Besides it wouldnt be 700,000 people, only have to bring 10 or 20 to court, fine them and the rest will rush to pay no doubt.


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    #3967
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    If they use the new Fines Act I can't see how someone can get out of having an attachment to their wages. Now if someone isn't a wage earner or social welfare recipient, it could be more difficult and jail may come into the equation there. But in most cases, I'd say you won't see people going to jail.


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    #3968
    Hijpo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,824 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'm sure he has thought in the last 27 years. He hasn't taught.

    He paid into his pension fund (I think 6.5% of earnings and notional earnings) presumably way after he was substituted.
    It seems a daft rule that allows people to hold on to their teaching positions when they go into the Dail, but the idea that he shouldn't have a right to the pension fund that he contributed to is just silly.

    We do have property rights in this country.

    Ah gud job DV, resawrting 2 pickin on spelling mistakes, shows how small an argumant u have agenst de rest of deh post.

    Now can you share your opinion on the rest of the post please?
    Whats your opinion on this
    already admitting to having taken a quarter of million in severance and pension while still a TD even though he has been campaigning against these payments

    and again if you see a problem with people not paying 100 euro, how do you not see a problem with all this money the politicians are able to claim even though the country is supposed to be broke.


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    #3969
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    But a court wont let someone directly ignore a court order and they wont give two f**ks what Enda and Co. say about jailing someone, the court system would be screwed if Joe public decided they could just ignore court orders whenever they wanted.

    Besides it wouldnt be 700,000 people, only have to bring 10 or 20 to court, fine them and the rest will rush to pay no doubt.

    You're so so wrong on that one it its unbelievable.

    Surely, four months on from the deadline passing you can still see the determination and resentment from the non payers?

    Ten or twenty martyrs may have the opposite effect the govt/court would ever wish for.


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    #3970
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    You're so so wrong on that one it its unbelievable.

    Surely, four months on from the deadline passing you can still see the determination and resentment from the non payers?

    Ten or twenty martyrs may have the opposite effect the govt/court would ever wish for.

    Absolutely no chance that I am wrong on that one.

    How would anyone be stupid enough to go to jail over the household charge. I know there are some idiots out there but none as ridiculously dumb as that.

    Those 10 or 20 people will be brought to court and fined. Then everyone else that hasnt paid will have the option of paying €114 - €130 today for the HHC or go to court next week and get fined €1000 - €2500 approx. So anyone with a brain would obviously choose to pay €114 today instead of anything up to €2,500 next week.

    And before you say sure they wont pay the €2,500 either, well as I have outlined already if they dont pay this they could end up in prison or at least with a conviction on their record. So again they will have the option of paying €114 - €130 to avoid a far bigger fine or a possible criminal conviction.


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    #3971
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    donalg1 wrote: »
    But a court wont let someone directly ignore a court order and they wont give two f**ks what Enda and Co. say about jailing someone, the court system would be screwed if Joe public decided they could just ignore court orders whenever they wanted.

    Besides it wouldnt be 700,000 people, only have to bring 10 or 20 to court, fine them and the rest will rush to pay no doubt.

    If someone was jailed for failing to pay an unjust tax on their home then people really would take to the streets in support of that householder. I would anyway.


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    #3972
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    donalg1 wrote: »

    How would anyone be stupid enough to go to jail over the household charge. I know there are some idiots out there but none as ridiculously dumb as that.

    You think anyone that defends a principle is an idiot and dumb? For some people at this stage it is the principle not the actual cost of the HHC.
    The government are bullying people while taking the piss themselves. It will come to a head eventually and I'm sure any of us want that.


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    #3973
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    tayto lover wrote: »
    If someone was jailed for failing to pay an unjust tax on their home then people really would take to the streets in support of that householder. I would anyway.

    Again they wouldnt be jailed for not paying the HHC they would be jailed for ignoring a court order


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    #3974
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    hondasam wrote: »
    You think anyone that defends a principle is an idiot and dumb? For some people at this stage it is the principle not the actual cost of the HHC.
    The government are bullying people while taking the piss themselves. It will come to a head eventually and I'm sure any of us want that.

    I think anyone that would prefer to go to jail or would prefer to pay €2,500 instead of paying €100 would be pretty stupid now.

    Dont get me wrong though I am all for people having the right to protest about something they believe in, but there comes a point when you have to say ok my protest hasnt worked and I am not going to end up with a conviction or paying needless fines for the sake of a point of principle but I am glad I protested against it and am happy to have made my point.


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    #3975
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    donalg1 wrote: »

    Dont get me wrong though I am all for people having the right to protest about something they believe in, but there comes a point when you have to say ok my protest hasnt worked and I am not going to end up with a conviction or paying needless fines for the sake of a point of principle but I am glad I protested against it and am happy to have made my point.

    Sounds like the attitude of a limp leaf of lettuce.


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    #3976
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    mikom wrote: »
    Sounds like the attitude of a limp leaf of lettuce.

    Ok if you think so.

    To me it sounds like the attitude of someone with a brain, I for one would not go to jail over a €100 charge, or would I decide it would be better to pay 25 times that instead, but sure each to their own I suppose:rolleyes:


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    #3977
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    donalg1 wrote: »
    I think anyone that would prefer to go to jail or would prefer to pay €2,500 instead of paying €100 would be pretty stupid now.

    Dont get me wrong though I am all for people having the right to protest about something they believe in, but there comes a point when you have to say ok my protest hasnt worked and I am not going to end up with a conviction or paying needless fines for the sake of a point of principle but I am glad I protested against it and am happy to have made my point.

    But Donal its not about €100 expected this year.

    Its the registration of your details (with one hundred euro) to enable the govt to have your details for a year on year property tax of several (up to five) hundred euro per year.

    They won't be providing any thing for this charge, no refuse collection, no education, no medical care etc etc.


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    #3978
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    donalg1 wrote: »
    I think anyone that would prefer to go to jail or would prefer to pay €2,500 instead of paying €100 would be pretty stupid now.

    Dont get me wrong though I am all for people having the right to protest about something they believe in, but there comes a point when you have to say ok my protest hasnt worked and I am not going to end up with a conviction or paying needless fines for the sake of a point of principle but I am glad I protested against it and am happy to have made my point.

    Where does it stop? next year it will be another tax/charge and we just can't afford to keep bailing out everyone else.
    The government have not done enough in their own dept imo. Expenses should be abolished we all have to fund out way to work etc.


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    #3979
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Ghandee wrote: »
    But Donal its not about €100 expected this year.

    Its the registration of your details (with one hundred euro) to enable the govt to have your details for a year on year property tax of several (up to five) hundred euro per year.

    They won't be providing any thing for this charge, no refuse collection, no education, no medical care etc etc.

    It is about €100 this year, that is what we are here discussing, we are discussing what could or could not happen if you choose not to pay the €100.


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    #3980
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Ok if you think so.

    To me it sounds like the attitude of someone with a brain, I for one would not go to jail over a €100 charge, or would I decide it would be better to pay 25 times that instead, but sure each to their own I suppose:rolleyes:

    Buts it not about the €100, most of us are Intelligent enough to realeaze this is a gateway tax, once they have your details, bam the door is wide open for high property taxes/high water charges and whatever other taxes they might be considering-and will peoples ability and means to pay be taken into account for next years property tax ?




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    #3981
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    hondasam wrote: »
    Where does it stop? next year it will be another tax/charge and we just can't afford to keep bailing out everyone else.
    The government have not done enough in their own dept imo. Expenses should be abolished we all have to fund out way to work etc.

    Who knows where it will all stop, but I was only discussing the implications of non payment of the HHC. Who knows how much will be paying next year and for what.

    As for the expenses I agree with that 100%, their salaries are high enough for them to cover it themselves.


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    #3982
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Buts it not about the €100, most of us are Intelligent enough to realeaze this is a gateway tax, once they have your details, bam the door is wide open for high property taxes/high water charges and whatever other taxes they might be considering.

    Do you honestly think that by not registering for the HHC you wont be caught for the property tax or water charges? Its not a game of hide and seek, they asked people to register for the HHC to make it easier to gather the information, they are going to compile the necessary info one way or another I cant imagine anyone thinking that by not registering for the HHC they will be automatically excluded from the property tax or water charges.


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    #3983
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Who knows where it will all stop, but I was only discussing the implications of non payment of the HHC. Who knows how much will be paying next year and for what.

    As for the expenses I agree with that 100%, their salaries are high enough for them to cover it themselves.

    This has been my argument all along, I'm not signing up to a contract when I have no idea what it is I'm signing.
    They can turn around next year and demand a €1000 from me and I have no choice but pay because I signed up to it.
    IMO it would be madness to sign something without know the full facts.


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    #3984
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Tax rates change all the time. Your income tax can go up or down for example.


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    #3985
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Tax rates change all the time. Your income tax can go up or down for example.

    It's not the same thing as the HHC. we have no idea what the charge will be next year and we have to pay water, bin charges as well.
    What is the HHC for? it's not value for money imo.


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    #3986
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    hondasam wrote: »
    This has been my argument all along, I'm not signing up to a contract when I have no idea what it is I'm signing.
    They can turn around next year and demand a €1000 from me and I have no choice but pay because I signed up to it.
    IMO it would be madness to sign something without know the full facts.

    But regardless of what you do with the HHC this year, you will be signed up for property taxes next year there will be no getting away from it imo.


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    #3987
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Why don't they up the income tax of higher earners then so? They could have raised the one hundred and sixty million very very easily that way.

    Because we know that, that's only a matter of time too, income tax will increase across the board on top of a property tax.


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    #3988
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    It's been well flagged that it's going up. It's not like it's a secret. Your income tax liability could go up next year too for all you know.

    What's it for? It goes directly to local authorities.


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    #3989
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    there is a shortfall of what the government takes in, against what it has to pay out....

    it has to decrease it's payout or increase taxes....it will increase taxes, because it has not decreased it payout enough.......

    that is the situation.......the only arguement is....who will pay the extra taxes.....

    somebody will......


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    #3990
    hondasam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    It's been well flagged that it's going up. It's not like it's a secret. Your income tax liability could go up next year too for all you know.

    What's it for? It goes directly to local authorities.

    It's going up? how long is a piece of string, going up to what?

    Why are we expected to pay bin/water charges separately? should this not be included ?


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    #3991
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    golden lane wrote: »
    there is a shortfall of what the government takes in, against what it has to pay out....

    it has to decrease it's payout or increase taxes....it will increase taxes, because it has not decreased it payout enough.......

    that is the situation.......the only arguement is....who will pay the extra taxes.....

    somebody will......


    You see the word 'government' at the top of your post?

    Well, that's where they should start, and work their way down.


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