Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Am Chile

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Tax rates change all the time. Your income tax can go up or down for example.

Linked to your income and ability and means to pay, the goverment should be honest and upfront about all these new taxes/charges- next years property tax how much will it be and will someones ability and means to pay be taken into account ? septic tanks if someone needs to upgrade or replace their septic tank will their be any grants/ financial assistance available to people ? water charges once again how much will they be and will someones ability and means to pay be taken into account ?

As long as the goverment avoids answering these questions . most people aren,t gonna register for the household tax nor register their septic tanks.

donalg1

hondasam wrote: »

It's going up? how long is a piece of string, going up to what?

Why are we expected to pay bin/water charges separately? should this not be included ?

Bin charges could be included provided the LA's have a bin service (some have scrapped thiers due to losses incurred as a result of being undercut by the competition), but water charges couldnt as they will be most likely based on usage so couldnt be predicted in advance.

golden lane

Ghandee wrote: »

You see the word 'government' at the top of your post?

Well, that's where they should start, and work their way down.

agreed.....but that does not look
like it is going to happen......it is up to the people to ensure it does..

if the burden is just placed on homeowners.....it will not solve anything....

mikom

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Tax rates change all the time. Your income tax can go up or down for example.

Question 1. ........... Do employed people who live in local authority houses pay income tax?


Question 2. ........... Do employed people who live in local authority houses pay the household charge?

Chips Lovell

hondasam wrote: »

It's going up? how long is a piece of string, going up to what?

A few hundred quid I'd expect

hondasam wrote: »

Why are we expected to pay bin/water charges separately? should this not be included ?

I suppose they could add them in and have a bigger household charge, but at least by paying separately for water and waste you can control your spending by how much of each service you use.

mikom wrote: »

Question 1. ........... Do employed people who live in local authority houses pay income tax?


Question 2. ........... Do employed people who live in local authority houses pay the household charge?

1. Yes
2. No

mikom

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

1. Yes
2. No

Exactly.
Consistent as ever this government.

tayto lover

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Tax rates change all the time. Your income tax can go up or down for example.

:rolleyes:

Yes i can see the Income Tax coming down very soon and with it PRSI, the USC and Home Tax. Looking forward to that.

Chips Lovell

mikom wrote: »

Exactly.
Consistent as ever this government.

It's been gone over already in this thread. At length. There's nothing unusual about taxing people's assets. If you don't own a car, you don't have to pay Motor Tax. If you don't have savings, you won't have to pay DIRT. And so on....

dvpower

Hijpo wrote: »

Now can you share your opinion on the rest of the post please?
Whats your opinion on this

already admitting to having taken a quarter of million in severance and pension while still a TD even though he has been campaigning against these payments

What relevance does this have to do with the HHC?
Some of you guys might want to drag this thread off topic, but I'd prefer to stick with the HHC issue, but feel free to open another thread.

Hijpo wrote: »

and again if you see a problem with people not paying 100 euro, how do you not see a problem with all this money the politicians are able to claim even though the country is supposed to be broke.

I do have a probem with the level of payments made to senior public servants and senior politicians, but they're not really the topic here. I'd like to see some laws changed and all laws obeyed.

mikom

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It's been gone over already in this thread. At length. There's nothing unusual about taxing people's assets. If you don't own a car, you don't have to pay Motor Tax. If you don't have savings, you won't have to pay DIRT. And so on....

Ability to pay flies right out the window...........

Doesn't pay
A person renting a council house with a good (non benefit) income, streetlights outside, public sewerage, a park and a library just a short jog away.

Pays
John the unemployed farm labourer in an heirloom one bedroomed cottage in rural mayo, no streetlights outside, private septic tank, no park, no library.
Ps. We'll be back shortly to ask for more money for the septic tank)

Justice.
Fine Gael style

Chips Lovell

mikom wrote: »

Ability to pay flies right out the window...........

That's another topic that's come up before here. There appears to be no stats on how many people are genuinely unable to pay.

flutered

gerryo777 wrote: »

Why the **** do this shower need 10,000 silk ties and a similar amount of silk scarves for the 'ladies'.

10,000??? that's 10,000 folks, of each!!!

Even if they get them at a fiver each, that's €100,000.

€100,000

You really couldn't write this stuff.
The arrogance and contempt this government show the electorate is stunning, simply stunning.

Haughey will never be dead, if you pulled Kenny's face off you'll find Charlie's!

Think I'll e-mail the troika and let them know..

are you not a simple person. expecting our goverment to purchase silk ties and gloves for a fiver, that is car boot prices, if our spiffin president uses a paris boutique you can bet your household charge that the goverment will find a similar spot, or more than likely fone a friend.

flutered

dvpower wrote: »

The Waterford branch of Unite iirc.
It would be an unofficial and probably illegal strike, with little impact.

back in the day i knew one or two guys who died for this wreched isle, i also knew many that were on the run, they are all gone before their god now, i believe the a few more will emerge from the smell of this precurser of more taxes, if required, when my country need leaders they emerged, when it needed people to die for it, they stuck to their belief, riddiculing each and every one saying they will run and hide is riddleculing oneself.

flutered

dvpower wrote: »

The Waterford branch of Unite iirc.
It would be an unofficial and probably illegal strike, with little impact.

back in the day a certain mobile fone company decieded to put a mast on a place called tory hill, an ideal spot, as it could then beam a signal down into waterford and kilkenny citys, they got planning permission, the locals objected and were overruled, the fone company tried to go ahead, today there is no fone mast on it, figure that out.

dvpower

flutered wrote: »

back in the day i knew one or two guys who died for this wreched isle, i also knew many that were on the run, they are all gone before their god now, i believe the a few more will emerge from the smell of this precurser of more taxes, if required, when my country need leaders they emerged, when it needed people to die for it, they stuck to their belief, riddiculing each and every one saying they will run and hide is riddleculing oneself.

Its a €100 household charge, probably not worth dying for.

flutered wrote: »

back in the day a certain mobile fone company decieded to put a mast on a place called tory hill, an ideal spot, as it could then beam a signal down into waterford and kilkenny citys, they got planning permission, the locals objected and were overruled, the fone company tried to go ahead, today there is no fone mast on it, figure that out.

I can't even begin to.

KTurtle

mikom wrote: »

Ability to pay flies right out the window...........

Doesn't pay
A person renting a council house with a good (non benefit) income, streetlights outside, public sewerage, a park and a library just a short jog away.

Pays
John the unemployed farm labourer in an heirloom one bedroomed cottage in rural mayo, no streetlights outside, private septic tank, no park, no library.
Ps. We'll be back shortly to ask for more money for the septic tank)

Justice.
Fine Gael style

Are you suggesting that every tax payable to the state should involve means testing?

Someone living in a coucil house does not own the place. So just like anyone who privately rents a property, they don't pay the household charge. You may argue over someone's entitlement to a local authority property if you think they earn over x amount but that is a separate matter.

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

Ability to pay flies right out the window...........

Doesn't pay
A person renting a council house with a good (non benefit) income, streetlights outside, public sewerage, a park and a library just a short jog away.

Pays
John the unemployed farm labourer in an heirloom one bedroomed cottage in rural mayo, no streetlights outside, private septic tank, no park, no library.
Ps. We'll be back shortly to ask for more money for the septic tank)

Justice.
Fine Gael style

Pays Income tax
Young couple both earning average industrial wage with a few kids to support and pay childcare costs for, and a big mortgage to service.

Pays the same Income tax
Older couple both earning average industrial wage with no kids to support and the mortgage paid off.


Even progressive taxes don't take account of actual ability to pay. If anyone can come up with a 'fair' system that everyone agrees is fair, they'll be getting a nobel prize.

mikom

dvpower wrote: »

Pays Income tax
Young couple both earning average industrial wage with a few kids to support and pay childcare costs for, and a big mortgage to service.

Pays the same Income tax
Older couple both earning average industrial wage with no kids to support and the mortgage paid off.


Even progressive taxes don't take account of actual ability to pay. If anyone can come up with a 'fair' system that everyone agrees is fair, they'll be getting a nobel prize.

You pay when you earn in both cases.

In the case of the household charge you have to pay even if you don't earn......................except if you earn and live in a local authority house...... then you get a pass.

Am Chile

KTurtle wrote: »

Are you suggesting that every tax payable to the state should involve means testing?

Someone living in a coucil house does not own the place. So just like anyone who privately rents a property, they don't pay the household charge. You may argue over someone's entitlement to a local authority property if you think they earn over x amount but that is a separate matter.

Certain taxes next years property tax should be based on someones ability and means to pay although I suspect it won,t. some research found by a survey a few months ago found the following.

Over 1.6 million people in Ireland now have just €100 to spare at the end of each month, according to new research carried out by the Irish League of Credit Unions (ILCU).

Half the country feel they are just "living to work", with 41% believing there is no longer a future for them or their family in Ireland, an ICLU survey has found.

Disposable income is under pressure for the majority of consumers, with 63% saying the amount of money left after paying essential bills has fallen in the past 12 months. Compared to six months ago, 51% have experienced an actual fall in their disposable income.

The survey, part of the ILCU's ongoing disposable income tracker index, What’s Left, found:

* 28% of people cannot afford to pay the household charge;

* 46% are unable to save money;

* 45% are struggling with their car finances as a result of the increased cost of motoring;

* 40% have switched car insurance company to cut down on costs; 20% have switched to a smaller car.

Around half of those surveyed admitted to not paying their utility bills on time, with bin charges, TV licences and phone bills the most likely to be put off.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/credit-union-survey-highlights-financial-struggles-547619.html

You cannot seriously expect people struggling in these circumstances to be able to afford an annual combined property tax/water charge of over €1000, I said it before IL say it again, you cannot get blood from a stone and if you criminalise the stone you still won't draw blood from it- even a labour counciler had the following to say on his blog.

I now think that there is a significant group of people who just cannot afford to pay these charges. I am hearing a lot of debate about the merits and demerits of a property task or water charges from well heeled economists and commentators . The main question that is not being addressed is what if the householder just cannot afford to pay. What happens then? It's not just property tax, household charge or water charges it is all the other cuts to income including job losses that people have suffered that is making this particularly difficult.

http://seamusryan.blogspot.ie/2012/04/adding-fuel-to-fire-taoiseach-and-water.html

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

You pay when you earn in both cases.

In the case of the household charge you have to pay even if you don't earn......................except if you earn and live in a local authority house...... then you get a pass.

And in all cases, ability to pay isn't taken into account, except by using imprecise indicators like gross income or home ownership.

mikom

dvpower wrote: »

And in all cases, ability to pay isn't taken into account, except by using imprecise indicators like gross income or home ownership.

Gross income is sooo imprecise.
Give me a fuckin' break

dvpower

mikom wrote: »

Gross income is sooo imprecise.
Give me a fuckin' break

Yes. Quite imprecise, as I demonstrated above. Especially so in the context of a €100 charge.

flutered

dvpower wrote: »

Its a €100 household charge, probably not worth dying for.


I can't even begin to.

i will save you the bother as you are too hooked up on trying to persuade people to pay the household charge, work started despite demands for it to stop, a compound was built on tory hill, security guards were hired to do what security gaurds do, on a dark and lonesome night the security guys were overpowered, they were marched down the hill naked by a number of local women, that put an end to the fone companys dream, now what would be the odds of the same people even more applying themselves in an likewise manner.

donalg1

flutered wrote: »

dvpower wrote: »

Its a €100 household charge, probably not worth dying for.


I can't even begin to.

i will save you the bother as you are too hooked up on trying to persuade people to pay the household charge, work started despite demands for it to stop, a compound was built on tory hill, security guards were hired to do what security gaurds do, on a dark and lonesome night the security guys were overpowered, they were marched down the hill naked by a number of local women, that put an end to the fone companys dream, now what would be the odds of the same people even more applying themselves in an likewise manner.

So basically the security guards were assaulted while trying to earn a living. Sound like a great bunch of people you know! Can't imagine too many people applauding that tbh or wanting to get involved with those types of people.

dvpower

flutered wrote: »

i will save you the bother as you are too hooked up on trying to persuade people to pay the household charge, work started despite demands for it to stop, a compound was built on tory hill, security guards were hired to do what security gaurds do, on a dark and lonesome night the security guys were overpowered, they were marched down the hill naked by a number of local women, that put an end to the fone companys dream, now what would be the odds of the same people even more applying themselves in an likewise manner.

So some scumbags terrorised security workers going about their business.

How is this relevant to the HHC?

tayto lover

golden lane wrote: »

there is a shortfall of what the government takes in, against what it has to pay out....

it has to decrease it's payout or increase taxes....it will increase taxes, because it has not decreased it payout enough.......

that is the situation.......the only arguement is....who will pay the extra taxes.....

somebody will......

Well maybe they should do what i have to do. Live within existing budget.
They do very little with what they're getting already and many people have had to pay private bin collectors. What are we going to get for this Home Tax anyway ? Nothing i'd say.

Hijpo

dvpower wrote: »

Some of you guys might want to drag this thread off topic, but I'd prefer to stick with the HHC issue, but feel free to open another thread.

Sure you do

this is relevant to the point where if they stopped throwing money around and accepting massive salaries and enda "taking a quarter of a million in severance and pension while still a TD even though he has been campaigning against these payments" (the f**kin two faced pr** again just like taxing someones home) as if the country was loaded they might not need to threaten us for the extra taxes, if people saw that they were some what a bit more careful on there spending then people might be a little more willing to part with the money they earned.

So if you have a problem with how much they earn, why feel the need to give them more of your money with out question, then slate all the people who are not so easily fooled, when senior public servants and senior politicians are in a much better position to take a bigger hit?

Its all relevant as to why we shouldnt be paying a HHC, but sure if you want to fob it off again so be it......

flutered

donalg1 wrote: »

So basically the security guards were assaulted while trying to earn a living. Sound like a great bunch of people you know! Can't imagine too many people applauding that tbh or wanting to get involved with those types of people.

ordinary decent tax payers.

flutered

dvpower wrote: »

So some scumbags terrorised security workers going about their business.

How is this relevant to the HHC?

scumbags no, ordinary house holders who ndid not want a mast beaming radiaton on them day and night, as to how its relevant, if you can figure out how to pay this tax, then surely you have this figured out by now.

flutered

people whose homes are flodded out twice a year are expected to pay for the privilage, yeah ted.