Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Chips Lovell

So if we'd managed to chop 10 per cent from the overall public sector pay bill, you'd be happy?

phil1nj

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So if we'd managed to chop 10 per cent from the overall public sector pay bill, you'd be happy?

No because happiness is a mental or emotional state of well-being characterized by positive or pleasent emotions ranging from contentment to intense joy. I rarely experience these feelings and find it difficult to quantify them in my day to day activities.

Hijpo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So if we'd managed to chop 10 per cent from the overall public sector pay bill, you'd be happy?

obviously a 10% wage cut isnt all that can be saved before you go saying 10% wont fill the gap.

bgrizzley

tbh wrote: »

put simply, if the majority of votes at the next election go to parties that oppose the HHC, then those parties will be able to repeal the HHC.

I agree with the poster who said that overspending in government must also be tackled, but the fact remains that the HHC is the law, and it must be paid.

I'd also dispute the fact that 700,000 (or however many) are making a political point, I'd assume that number includes people who intend to pay but are waiting until they are forced to pay, those just taking a chance that it'll go away somehow, and those who don't pay any tax (car tax etc)

Simple fact: there is a deficit in this country that must be filled. IF the HHC doesn't do it, cuts will. There are - and this is fact - people in this country who can easily afford to pay the HHC, but choose not to, and not because of any political ideals, but because they think they'll get away with it. Once the letters go out, we'll see how it shakes out.

i agree with you, of course everyone isnt doing it for those reasons, any more than the people that have paid are doing for the good of the country, the majority are doing it because they are scared of clipboard wielding council officials and threats of court and liens on your house and god knows what other threats the blueshirts are making.

That reminds me, when they take their long break for the summer holidays, are they more "blueshorts". :pac:
ok, ill get me coat............

phil1nj

Hijpo wrote: »

obviously a 10% wage cut isnt all that can be saved before you go saying 10% wont fill the gap.

I may have given Vladimir Kurtains the wrong idea when I used my 10% example (I also know when I'm being set up for a fall hence my last reply).

A reduction of 10% in the PS pay bill would be a good start coupled with a 10% reduction in the HSE bill and a 10% reduction in the social welfare bill. They might, just might be consdiered "decisive actions" that didn't involve increased taxation. Guess we'll never know.

Chips Lovell

How about 20 per cent? Do you think that would be adequate or is that maybe taking it too far?

phil1nj

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

How about 20 per cent? Do you think that would be adequate or is that maybe taking it too far?

Depends on where the 20% comes from to be honest. 20% of Brian Cowen's pension mightn't be missed by this newly mature student, but 20% of an ex-soldiers pension who served 21 years or more in the Irish armed forces might be consdered harsh and taking it too far.

Likewise 20% of Enda's salary wouldn't see him being reduced to living off Spam and Koki Noodles for dinner but it might have a detrimental effect on a young teachers standard of living. You see where I'm going with this? It ties in with the sliding scale point I mentioned earlier.

tayto lover

Hijpo wrote: »

obviously a 10% wage cut isnt all that can be saved before you go saying 10% wont fill the gap.

I don't believe in wage cuts at all (in either sector) as it prevents the economy from growing and actually leads to job losses. Less money spent by either sector = less jobs in the Private Sector. Stop the wastage and you won't need to think of cuts. I do agree with pay caps and non replacement of half of the administrators in the Public Sector. I think the Croke Park Agreement is working well and will sort the problem out. I work in the Private Sector for what it's worth.

Bishop_Donal

tayto lover wrote: »

I don't believe in wage cuts at all (in either sector) as it prevents the economy from growing and actually leads to job losses. Less money spent by either sector = less jobs in the Private Sector. Stop the wastage and you won't need to think of cuts. I do agree with pay caps and non replacement of half of the administrators in the Public Sector. I think the Croke Park Agreement is working well and will sort the problem out. I work in the Private Sector for what it's worth.

In applying your theory of reducing half the administrators in the Public Sector, how come the Less money spent by either sector .... theory doesn't apply?

Also, excluding the salary costs of the various elements of the Public Sector (as you seem to be profoundly opposed to touching same - except for half the administrators!!), how much cost do you anticipate will be saved by department?

Hint: You need to get to Eur18bn to get the books back in order.

Bishop_Donal

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

So if we'd managed to chop 10 per cent from the overall public sector pay bill, you'd be happy?

If we manage to reduce average wages in the PS by 10%,

• combined with a fully enforced Property Tax at say Eur1k per annum for an average house (yielding Eur1.6bn),
• combined with a general reduction in Personal Allowances and PAYE allowances,
• combined with a serious attempt to eliminate Welfare Fraud,
• combined with a a substantial general reduction in Social Welfare payments

We'd be getting closer to making a real impact on the problems of this country.

To encourage the type of activity you'd like to see in this country, I'd simultaneously reduce the combined top rate of Income Tax/PRSI/USC, but needless to say the Labour influence in our current government would be too terrified to do anything that might promote economic activity, and FG are too worried that they would alienate their 'rent-a-vote' by doing anything that would upset anybody.

tayto lover

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

In applying your theory of reducing half the administrators in the Public Sector, how come the Less money spent by either sector .... theory doesn't apply?

Also, excluding the salary costs of the various elements of the Public Sector (as you seem to be profoundly opposed to touching same - except for half the administrators!!), how much cost do you anticipate will be saved by department?

Hint: You need to get to Eur18bn to get the books back in order.

Less money spent in Admin (particularly in HSE), better time management, not over-buying equipment and having it kept away in stores for years and going obsolete is bound to save money. You would have to know exactly how many are employed in Admin to price the savings and that's something we don't know but from reading threads we have far too many.
I am against cutting wages again as the PS have been hit two or three times already and the people at the bottom are earning very poor wages i.e. many on 27k or less. From reading the Credit Union report this week there are very few people on the lower scales who have any savings so to cut them again would force many of them to give up work and claim SW instead. We have to keep as much money flowing as possible.
As I said earlier the CPA will get the PS bill down to 18k in time because of the recruitment moratorium. They have experts in charge and don't need me or you giving them figures.

darkhorse

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

If we manage to reduce average wages in the PS by 10%,

• combined with a fully enforced Property Tax at say Eur1k per annum for an average house (yielding Eur1.6bn),
• combined with a general reduction in Personal Allowances and PAYE allowances,
• combined with a a substantial general reduction in Social Welfare payments

We'd be getting closer to making a real impact on the problems of this country.
More like we'd be getting closer to making a good deal of the irish people homeless altogether. Are you in government, cause I can't imagine an ordinary middle of the road PAYE worker suggesting an enforced property tax at 1k or anything near it, along with all the cuts and stealth taxes that we have already endured and with what's coming down the line in the future.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Bishop_Donal

tayto lover wrote: »

Less money spent in Admin (particularly in HSE), better time management, not over-buying equipment and having it kept away in stores for years and going obsolete is bound to save money. You would have to know exactly how many are employed in Admin to price the savings and that's something we don't know but from reading threads we have far too many.
I am against cutting wages again as the PS have been hit two or three times already and the people at the bottom are earning very poor wages i.e. many on 27k or less. From reading the Credit Union report this week there are very few people on the lower scales who have any savings so to cut them again would force many of them to give up work and claim SW instead. We have to keep as much money flowing as possible.
As I said earlier the CPA will get the PS bill down to 18k in time because of the recruitment moratorium. They have experts in charge and don't need me or you giving them figures.

I note you conveniently didn't bother addressing the obvious contradiction I put to you first.

Regarding the balance of your response, I'd say that would really wash with International markets alright. Begorra we're going to reduce our deficit by cuttin out waste, Angela. We're not really sure where or how much, but it will be alright on the night, so can you give us another few billion to give the lads on the social drinkin money. BTW, we're not reducing anyones salary if that's OK with you? I know our lads are paid a bit more than yours, but sure they're entitled to it...

Ghandee

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

[*]combined with a fully enforced Property Tax at say Eur1k per annum for an average house (yielding Eur1.6bn),

Lol, so a low earner already on less than 25k a year, is now on 24k before he gets out of his (property taxed) bed

Now I know you be trollin Donal :cool:

tayto lover

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I note you conveniently didn't bother addressing the obvious contradiction I put to you first.

Regarding the balance of your response, I'd say that would really wash with International markets alright. Begorra we're going to reduce our deficit by cuttin out waste, Angela. We're not really sure where or how much, but it will be alright on the night, so can you give us another few billion to give the lads on the social drinkin money. BTW, we're not reducing anyones salary if that's OK with you? I know our lads are paid a bit more than yours, but sure they're entitled to it...

Well now I wouldn't want to argue with that bit of a corrective measure you posted Bishop. You should send that to Enda. He'll be delighted that you are only going to target the small man again.
I didn't conveniently address that part because I don't have the numbers and neither have you so there's no point. As for things being alright on the night sure F.G./ Labour and F.F. have the same remedies for every problem i.e. cut the small guy and leave our rich cronies alone. That will please Angela.

Bishop_Donal

Ghandee wrote: »

Lol, so a low earner already on less than 25k a year, is now on 24k before he gets out of his (property taxed) bed

Now I know you be trollin Donal :cool:

I'm not saying we'll get there in one budget.
I am saying I think the average liability to property tax will end up close to Eur1,000 (but obviously there is a dispersion around an average).
I doubt that many individuals on 24k will be that impacted, as they generally (even in boom times weren't in a position to buy property in Ireland), although I think landlords will increase rents if they (rather than tenants are inappropriately levied with the charge).

I've been accused of 'trollin' here before, and frankly I cudn't care less. I make my predictions, you can make yours, and we'll see who is right in the end.

The take up on the household charge has been somewhat higher than you predicted, and it will continue to rise.

Property tax is here to stay. Like it or not. Expressing & supporting a legitimate prediction that it will have to become a material component of the resolution of this country's problems (i.e. the levels at which I am estimating it) should hardly upset or offend you.

Bishop_Donal

tayto lover wrote: »

Well now I wouldn't want to argue with that bit of a corrective measure you posted Bishop. You should send that to Enda. He'll be delighted that you are only going to target the small man again.
I didn't conveniently address that part because I don't have the numbers and neither have you so there's no point. As for things being alright on the night sure F.G./ Labour and F.F. have the same remedies for every problem i.e. cut the small guy and leave our rich cronies WEALTH & EMPLOYMENT GENERATORS alone. That will please Angela.

Fixed.

Ghandee

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I'm not saying we'll get there in one budget.
I am saying I think the average liability to property tax will end up close to Eur1,000 (but obviously there is a dispersion around an average).
I doubt that many individuals on 24k will be that impacted, as they generally (even in boom times weren't in a position to buy property in Ireland), although I think landlords will increase rents if they (rather than tenants are inappropriately levied with the charge).

I've been accused of 'trollin' here before, and frankly I cudn't care less. I make my predictions, you can make yours, and we'll see who is right in the end.

The take up on the household charge has been somewhat higher than you predicted, and it will continue to rise.

Property tax is here to stay. Like it or not. Expressing & supporting a legitimate prediction that it will have to become a material component of the resolution of this country's problems (i.e. the levels at which I am estimating it) should hardly upset or offend you.

Ok, I respect that.

I retract the trolling statement.

squod

donalg1 wrote: »

The economy has changed drastically in that time though which should be in the forefront of his thinking.

Our GDP is probably going to be €170bn by the end of the year. I'd say what we have here is the misallocation of resources coupled with a criminal act of grand fraud which has the ''economy'' where it is now. How a HHC is going to solve those issues is beyond me.

Do you not find it reasonable that we should fix what's wrong before we go about randomly ripping of the general public?

darkhorse

hi squod,

I think you are 100% right on that one.

bgrizzley

squod wrote: »

Our GDP is probably going to be €170bn by the end of the year. I'd say what we have here is the misallocation of resources coupled with a criminal act of grand fraud which has the ''economy'' where it is now. How a HHC is going to solve those issues is beyond me.

Do you not find it reasonable that we should fix what's wrong before we go about randomly ripping of the general public?

Wow when i look at that figure it makes me realise just how petty this shower are. if everyone had paid they would realise 0.1% of that.

That would be the same as someone coming home from the bookies owing E1000 and taking E1 off his kids pocket money to pay it back.
nice one lads.:mad:

Am Chile

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

If we manage to reduce average wages in the PS by 10%,

• combined with a fully enforced Property Tax at say Eur1k per annum for an average house (yielding Eur1.6bn),
• combined with a general reduction in Personal Allowances and PAYE allowances,
• combined with a serious attempt to eliminate Welfare Fraud,
• combined with a a substantial general reduction in Social Welfare payments

We'd be getting closer to making a real impact on the problems of this country.

To encourage the type of activity you'd like to see in this country, I'd simultaneously reduce the combined top rate of Income Tax/PRSI/USC, but needless to say the Labour influence in our current government would be too terrified to do anything that might promote economic activity, and FG are too worried that they would alienate their 'rent-a-vote' by doing anything that would upset anybody.

Reading your post its obvious in real life you re well off and won't be effected by further cuts/taxes in the future- nowhere in your post do you mention peoples circumstances/means/ability to pay-then you re suggesting cutting peoples social welfare/cutting peoples wages then increasing a property tax 1k per annum. for people like you who might of missed this weeks league of credit union survey.

More than 1.8 million people are struggling to survive on €100 or less a month after bills are paid, a study showed.
Four out of 10 adults have borrowed to pay a household bill in the last year, with the most desperate 10pc using a moneylender, it revealed.

The survey, by the Irish League of Credit Unions (ILCU), also found half of all [COLOR=#009900 !important]bank[/COLOR] account holders do not know what bank charges they pay on accounts.


Kieron Brennan, ILCU chief executive, warned it has never been more important for people to get in the practice of managing their money tightly.


"The issue of personal debt is something we are hearing more and more about and the issue is a growing concern, particularly for those who are relying on their credit card to make ends meet every month," he said.

"Even more concerning is that of those who are borrowing each month to meet payments on their household bills, 10pc are turning to moneylenders.

"The ILCU recently called on the Government to put a legal cap on the interest rates charged by moneylenders in Ireland. No such cap currently exists but in practice, the ceiling is just below 190pc APR.


"With the level of personal indebtedness and financial exclusion in Ireland, there is a real danger of compounding the problem by allowing legal moneylenders to charge excessive rates."


The "What's Left" Tracker survey quizzed 1,000 adults in June.

It calculated 1.82 million adults across Ireland have less than €25 left each week to spend after bills - a jump of 200,000 people in the last year.

The ILCU said Irish disposable income has dropped in the past three months, with 69pc having less than 12 months ago.


It also found Irish consumers owe an average €1,100 euro on their credit card, with a quarter using a credit card to make ends meet each month.

To help customers in debt, the Credit Union has launched www.fixyourfinances.ie, the smart phone budgeting tool MYBUDGETBUDDY, and has tips and a budget planner to download on www.creditunion.ie/whatweoffer.


Its tracker study revealed consumer sentiment has weakened among those with less than 5pc of their income left at the end of the month.

Almost nine out of 10 vulnerable people worry about how they will cope if unforeseen expenses arise and over their ability to cope financially if further changes are made to social welfare or income tax in the next budget.


Elsewhere mortgage and rent continue to be the most expensive bills for the majority of Irish adults (72pc), followed by groceries (57pc), utility bills (54pc), and transport and car-related costs (27pc). Almost half of all consumers struggle to pay all of their bills on time.


And child care comes in as the greatest work-related expense at €520 euro per month, this is followed by car fuel (€145), daily lunches (€110) and public transport (€77).


Mr Brennan said many people may not be in a position to pay off their credit card bills in full each month and will be subject to high interest rates.


"Worryingly in this tracker only 54pc know what interest rate is charged on their credit card," he added.

"We would urge people to take some time to understand their bank charges and credit card interest rates and certainly look at their personal and household budgets to ensure that these costs are covered."

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/harsh-reality-of-austerity-18m-have-less-than-100-left-each-month-3161976.html

You say in another post property taxes is here to stay- we see next year when the real property tax prices come in how much resistance is gonna come from ordinary people when more people won't be paying.

donalg1

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

If we manage to reduce average wages in the PS by 10%,

• combined with a fully enforced Property Tax at say Eur1k per annum for an average house (yielding Eur1.6bn),
• combined with a general reduction in Personal Allowances and PAYE allowances,
• combined with a serious attempt to eliminate Welfare Fraud,
• combined with a a substantial general reduction in Social Welfare payments

We'd be getting closer to making a real impact on the problems of this country.

To encourage the type of activity you'd like to see in this country, I'd simultaneously reduce the combined top rate of Income Tax/PRSI/USC, but needless to say the Labour influence in our current government would be too terrified to do anything that might promote economic activity, and FG are too worried that they would alienate their 'rent-a-vote' by doing anything that would upset anybody.

So you want the little guy to pay for everything while giving the top earners a break? I wonder what your salary is :rolleyes:

You want to promote economic activity by cutting the salaries of the average worker by 10% and then telling them to pay €1,000 of a property tax. I cant honestly see how that would promote economic activity.

And as for the property tax of €1k how would you work that bearing in mind ability to pay and fairness too, especially when coupled with your slashing of wages of the average worker.

donalg1

Ghandee wrote: »

Lol, so a low earner already on less than 25k a year, is now on 24k before he gets out of his (property taxed) bed

Now I know you be trollin Donal :cool:

You never mentioned the 10% wage cut either, so they are actually on 21.5k before they get out of bed, I wonder how much the same lad would get on Social Welfare!!

donalg1

squod wrote: »

Our GDP is probably going to be €170bn by the end of the year. I'd say what we have here is the misallocation of resources coupled with a criminal act of grand fraud which has the ''economy'' where it is now. How a HHC is going to solve those issues is beyond me.

Do you not find it reasonable that we should fix what's wrong before we go about randomly ripping of the general public?

Of course whats broken should be fixed, but the above statement I made was in response to somebody saying that enda said it was morally wrong to tax someones home, I was simply pointing out that things have changed somewhat since 1994 and therefore Enda should be looking at changing his views on certain issues 18 years later in order to adapt to the changes in the economy.

crusher000

Ability to pay won't come into it as we see from this Government that it doesn't care about your ability to pay it wants Merkels money back. Calculations will be on the size of your property and market value which will be self assessed (this is according to what I have read and may not be actual fact ) (just preparing myself for correction) So if you built your house in the Good Auld Days on 1/2 acre and it was woth 450,000 and now is only worth 200,000 you pay on that. What it doesn't take into account is you may now be out of work or your earnings have decreased. Of course the reminder letters are still to arrive.

donalg1

crusher000 wrote: »

Ability to pay won't come into it as we see from this Government that it doesn't care about your ability to pay it wants Merkels money back. Calculations will be on the size of your property and market value which will be self assessed (this is according to what I have read and may not be actual fact ) (just preparing myself for correction) So if you built your house in the Good Auld Days on 1/2 acre and it was woth 450,000 and now is only worth 200,000 you pay on that. What it doesn't take into account is you may now be out of work or your earnings have decreased. Of course the reminder letters are still to arrive.

When I said ability to pay I meant making it €1k would not even attempt to factor in ability to pay, but making it a grand would only mean that there are those that simply cant pay, which obviously would be a mistake for the Govt as it would be better to make it €400 and have a 80% collection rate than make it €1000 and have a 5% collection rate.

But yeah from what I have read too I think the property tax will be based on a site valuation which I think will be a disaster.

tayto lover

Welcome home from the "Dark Side" donalg1.

donalg1

tayto lover wrote: »

Welcome home from the "Dark Side" donalg1.

I wouldnt go that far now Tayto, I dont want to be on either side on this one, more than comfortable here on the fence.:D

mikom

donalg1 wrote: »

I wouldnt go that far now Tayto, I dont want to be on either side on this one, more than comfortable here on the fence.:D

Mind the flowerpots......