Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

golden lane

donalg1 wrote: »

When I said ability to pay I meant making it €1k would not even attempt to factor in ability to pay, but making it a grand would only mean that there are those that simply cant pay, which obviously would be a mistake for the Govt as it would be better to make it €400 and have a 80% collection rate than make it €1000 and have a 5% collection rate.

But yeah from what I have read too I think the property tax will be based on a site valuation which I think will be a disaster.

just a bit of information....the council rating bands in the uk are.......a..b...c...d...is based on the rentable value .......

mine was c band......£1,400 to £1,600 A MONTH...varying from council to council....

Ghandee

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Any breakdown of those figures available? I'd like to see:

1. Spend on Local Government
2. Spend on Pay, Renumeration, Pensions, Golden Handshakes, etc for Ministers and Public/Civil Servants
3. Spend on Health
4. Spend on Social Welfare
5. Spend on Justice
6. Spend on Foreign Affairs

I think I read a statistic that govt spend 40% of their budget on Health, 35% on Social Welfare, and 25% on everything else (including pay/remuneration for ministers, civil and public service, advisors, etc). If this is true, then the anti-HHC argument that the government should stop wasting money on huge pensions doesn't hold any water - even if all the ministers and government workers worked for free, that would still only address less than 25% of total govt expenditure.

Drop in the ocean, indeed.

Are you a private sector employee? Can't fathom how you're in favour of these charges if you are tbh

donalg1

golden lane wrote: »

just a bit of information....the council rating bands in the uk are.......a..b...c...d...is based on the rentable value .......

mine was c band......£1,400 to £1,600 A MONTH...varying from council to council....

I think bands based on the size of the property / site would be a better way to go, but this would also need to take into account location and available services etc. and some more I wont have thought of.

A valuation system leaves it open to too much abuse imo. Such as what happens if the value changes how often do we get it valued, can we do it every few months if the market goes down and then every few years if it goes up again.

And based on market value I could say that if i put my house on the market today it would never sell so the actual value is zero, so no property tax for me. I could also ask the auctioneer to be nice to me when valuing the property and slip him 50 quid to keep me in the lower band, (not saying I would do this or that this would work but the question mark would always be there)

Plus telling people to pay for a valuation on their own property in order to then pay for a property tax wouldnt be ideal.

golden lane

donalg1 wrote: »

I think bands based on the size of the property / site would be a better way to go, but this would also need to take into account location and available services etc. and some more I wont have thought of.

A valuation system leaves it open to too much abuse imo. Such as what happens if the value changes how often do we get it valued, can we do it every few months if the market goes down and then every few years if it goes up again.

And based on market value I could say that if i put my house on the market today it would never sell so the actual value is zero, so no property tax for me. I could also ask the auctioneer to be nice to me when valuing the property and slip him 50 quid to keep me in the lower band, (not saying I would do this or that this would work but the question mark would always be there)

Plus telling people to pay for a valuation on their own property in order to then pay for a property tax wouldnt be ideal.

there are many ways of doing it....i just posted that , as they may take up the uk way......but gradually i think...

donalg1

golden lane wrote: »

there are many ways of doing it....i just posted that , as they may take up the uk way......but gradually i think...

I know that I wasnt disagreeing with you or anything like that just offering my opinion, but maybe rentable value could be the way to go.

golden lane

donalg1 wrote: »

I know that I wasnt disagreeing with you or anything like that just offering my opinion, but maybe rentable value could be the way to go.

in my opinion.....as the tax for services, is already within the central governments domain.......

propert tax is not the way to go......it has never been budgeted for by the house buyers......

maybe when things get better...but not soon.....

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

Plus telling people to pay for a valuation on their own property in order to then pay for a property tax wouldnt be ideal.

Arnt they, in a way, doing that with the septic tanks?
I know that has nothing to do with the HHC, just asking.

Iv agreed mostly with every post youv made since yesterday

donalg1

Hijpo wrote: »

Arnt they, in a way, doing that with the septic tanks?

Iv agreed mostly with every post youv made since yesterday

Really

Its fairly similiar to the septic tank thing I suppose, but the €5 they are looking for wont cover the inspection cost, whereas the site valuation would be about €125 and I would imagine they would be telling people they have to pay for it, which would be crazy either that or they will just add the cost of it to the property tax and recoup it that way.

The sq foot would be handiest as the Govt would have this info already in the planning permission.

Hijpo

donalg1 wrote: »

The sq foot would be handiest as the Govt would have this info already in the planning permission.

i agree but then they close the valuation loopholes you suggested for themselfs and i cant see them doing that.

kr7

golden lane wrote: »

just a bit of information....the council rating bands in the uk are.......a..b...c...d...is based on the rentable value .......

mine was c band......£1,400 to £1,600 A MONTH...varying from council to council....

Stop comparing Ireland to the UK.
We are not the UK, we have a different system here.
In the UK a lot more services are provided for by the council tax than what is proposed here.
In Ireland we want to reduce services and then charge more for them.
Pure madness.

Izzy Skint

Afternoon all.
Firstly, just wanted to say that in my opinion, this hhc / property tax fiasco WILL die a death eventually, it's just a pity that the gov. are going to waste years and millions of our taxpayers money before they realise this. It is just not going to be workable whichever way they try to implement it, plus, the resistance and anger among the people is only going to grow!.... do they have the guts to take on the irish people and face their wrath?...we will see but I will find it very ironic as they are scared of their lives to take on the all powerful unions ?

It is not workable, it seems to me that no matter how they attempt to implement this they will need the public's help and approval... they wanted us to register...why could they not have drawn up the register themselves?....answer : incapable of doing it.

How will they calculate what you owe? size of the site ? floor area of home? what about any additions / alterations / state of repair etc to the house that would alter it's value ....and all this will have to be calculated every year!!

What if they decide to use a broader approach to valuing, eg. a certain street or area address then all homes will be valued at x euro...fair? will people be 'happy' with that ??? .....don't think so!

What if they put the onus on the homeowner?...how will they force people to have their home valued ?, plus, it would be open to massive abuse....not workable

What if they try to value properties themselves and deduct it from peoples income ?....how will they value it ? will they need to gain access to properties?...will they deduct it from social welfare payments?... etc. etc....i bet that would be very popular !

Affordability ?...do the gov. realise how much it would cost them and how many people it would take to do that ?...remember, the gov. thought about that approach when they were thinking of not paying the childrens allowance to well off families but they scrapped that idea when they realised it was not workable.

No matter how you look at it, it is just not workable. It will be either very unfair, complicated, costly and will need the co-operation of the masses while enduring the backlash from the public.
We must also realise that this is Ireland and the public sector we are talking about....they are hardly renowned for their hard work and efficiency are they ?

Final point....TO ALL THOSE WHO THINK THAT THE PROPERTY TAX IS HERE TO STAY BECAUSE WE GAVE A COMMITMENT TO THE TROIKA....I SAY B*LLSH*T....the troika do not care how the gov. do it, once the spending to income ratio is reduced they are happy, the present gov. keep blaming the previous government for this commitment....absolute crap!....just go back and renegotiate with the IMF...it would not be a problem.
Somebody needs to tell this useless shower of PR*CKS in government to stop screwing the people, stop lying to us , stop threatening us, cut what needs to be cut or they will f*ck this country up bigtime !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Am Chile

Izzy Skint wrote: »

Afternoon all.
Firstly, just wanted to say that in my opinion, this hhc / property tax fiasco WILL die a death eventually, it's just a pity that the gov. are going to waste years and millions of our taxpayers money before they realise this. It is just not going to be workable whichever way they try to implement it, plus, the resistance and anger among the people is only going to grow!.... do they have the guts to take on the irish people and face their wrath?...we will see but I will find it very ironic as they are scared of their lives to take on the all powerful unions ?

It is not workable, it seems to me that no matter how they attempt to implement this they will need the public's help and approval... they wanted us to register...why could they not have drawn up the register themselves?....answer : incapable of doing it.

How will they calculate what you owe? size of the site ? floor area of home? what about any additions / alterations / state of repair etc to the house that would alter it's value ....and all this will have to be calculated every year!!

What if they decide to use a broader approach to valuing, eg. a certain street or area address then all homes will be valued at x euro...fair? will people be 'happy' with that ??? .....don't think so!

What if they put the onus on the homeowner?...how will they force people to have their home valued ?, plus, it would be open to massive abuse....not workable

What if they try to value properties themselves and deduct it from peoples income ?....how will they value it ? will they need to gain access to properties?...will they deduct it from social welfare payments?... etc. etc....i bet that would be very popular !

Affordability ?...do the gov. realise how much it would cost them and how many people it would take to do that ?...remember, the gov. thought about that approach when they were thinking of not paying the childrens allowance to well off families but they scrapped that idea when they realised it was not workable.

No matter how you look at it, it is just not workable. It will be either very unfair, complicated, costly and will need the co-operation of the masses while enduring the backlash from the public.
We must also realise that this is Ireland and the public sector we are talking about....they are hardly renowned for their hard work and efficiency are they ?

Final point....TO ALL THOSE WHO THINK THAT THE PROPERTY TAX IS HERE TO STAY BECAUSE WE GAVE A COMMITMENT TO THE TROIKA....I SAY B*LLSH*T....the troika do not care how the gov. do it, once the spending to income ratio is reduced they are happy, the present gov. keep blaming the previous government for this commitment....absolute crap!....just go back and renegotiate with the IMF...it would not be a problem.
Somebody needs to tell this useless shower of PR*CKS in government to stop screwing the people, stop lying to us , stop threatening us, cut what needs to be cut or they will f*ck this country up bigtime !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very good post, good questions posed as to how they will value properties.

If houses in Estate A happen to be more expensive to buy then Estate B will everyone living in Estate A be asked to pay a higher amount valued property tax for that housing estate ? also Some have said in a
scenario of two neighbours lets call them the Ryan Family and the Cummins family if one neighbour the Ryan Family has a bigger back garden then the other neighbour or a more expensive kitchen and bathroom the Ryan family be asked to pay more property tax, then how will they know who has a bigger back garden or a more expensive kitchen and bathroom, will people be asked to get auctioneers to value their homes or would people be given the self assessment option and value the home themselves.

dxhound2005

Izzy Skint wrote: »

Afternoon all.
Firstly, just wanted to say that in my opinion, this hhc / property tax fiasco WILL die a death eventually, it's just a pity that the gov. are going to waste years and millions of our taxpayers money before they realise this. It is just not going to be workable whichever way they try to implement it, plus, the resistance and anger among the people is only going to grow!.... do they have the guts to take on the irish people and face their wrath?...we will see but I will find it very ironic as they are scared of their lives to take on the all powerful unions ?

It is not workable, it seems to me that no matter how they attempt to implement this they will need the public's help and approval... they wanted us to register...why could they not have drawn up the register themselves?....answer : incapable of doing it.

How will they calculate what you owe? size of the site ? floor area of home? what about any additions / alterations / state of repair etc to the house that would alter it's value ....and all this will have to be calculated every year!!

What if they decide to use a broader approach to valuing, eg. a certain street or area address then all homes will be valued at x euro...fair? will people be 'happy' with that ??? .....don't think so!

What if they put the onus on the homeowner?...how will they force people to have their home valued ?, plus, it would be open to massive abuse....not workable

What if they try to value properties themselves and deduct it from peoples income ?....how will they value it ? will they need to gain access to properties?...will they deduct it from social welfare payments?... etc. etc....i bet that would be very popular !

Affordability ?...do the gov. realise how much it would cost them and how many people it would take to do that ?...remember, the gov. thought about that approach when they were thinking of not paying the childrens allowance to well off families but they scrapped that idea when they realised it was not workable.

No matter how you look at it, it is just not workable. It will be either very unfair, complicated, costly and will need the co-operation of the masses while enduring the backlash from the public.
We must also realise that this is Ireland and the public sector we are talking about....they are hardly renowned for their hard work and efficiency are they ?

Final point....TO ALL THOSE WHO THINK THAT THE PROPERTY TAX IS HERE TO STAY BECAUSE WE GAVE A COMMITMENT TO THE TROIKA....I SAY B*LLSH*T....the troika do not care how the gov. do it, once the spending to income ratio is reduced they are happy, the present gov. keep blaming the previous government for this commitment....absolute crap!....just go back and renegotiate with the IMF...it would not be a problem.
Somebody needs to tell this useless shower of PR*CKS in government to stop screwing the people, stop lying to us , stop threatening us, cut what needs to be cut or they will f*ck this country up bigtime !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Other developed countries manage to devise a system to calculate property taxes. It used to be done in this country in the past as well. The system in the North is very similar to the one we had until the 1970's. As far as I know no country does a new calculation every year.

kr7

Once the troika are gone and we're back to the markets, and in the run up to the next election this household tax will be dropped.
Politicians will do anything to get back in office.

kr7

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Other developed countries manage to devise a system to calculate property taxes. It used to be done in this country in the past as well. The system in the North is very similar to the one we had until the 1970's. As far as I know no country does a new calculation every year.

This is the Republic of Ireland,not any other country.

In northern Ireland the property taxes include refuse collection, down here it doesn't.
My refuse collection alone costs approx €500 per year.

Izzy Skint

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Other developed countries manage to devise a system to calculate property taxes. It used to be done in this country in the past as well. The system in the North is very similar to the one we had until the 1970's. As far as I know no country does a new calculation every year.

DX, being only a child in the 70's I know nothing of tax system at that time. When you get the time, could you give us a run down of how it worked then ?...how was it calculated, how was it collected, who was liable etc.
I am interested to know as I would like to compare the situation then with our current situation, and, would such a system work now ?
Just one more question, if the system we had in the 70's was very similar to the one in the North now, did people in the 70's get all those services for their tax that those in the North enjoy now ?

....thanks IZZY SKINT (yes he is !):)

Ghandee

kr7 wrote: »

This is the Republic of Ireland,not any other country.

In northern Ireland the property taxes include refuse collection, down here it doesn't.
My refuse collection alone costs approx €500 per year.

you've forgotten a few things my family members get for their 'rates' in the six counties.


Education:
free education (no book fees etc)
Free school buses
Free school meals.

Medical and emergency services:
Free visits to the doctor, hospital etc.
Prescriptions in a chemist average out about 4 pounds a time.
Free ambulance
Free fire service.

Council services etc:
Refuse collection
Rubbish/white goods removal services (council will take away old washing machines, fish washers, mattresses etc etc etc for free)
No water charges.

Roads:
Much lower motor tax
No tolls on the roads.
No VRT

(I'm sure theirs a few things I've forgot)

What we will receive for our property tax/HHC:
Nothing.



So yeah folks.

Its exactly like the norths rates system. :rolleyes:

For the love of God, stop comparing them :mad:

tayto lover

Ghandee wrote: »

you've forgotten a few things my family members get for their 'rates' in the six counties.


Education:
free education (no book fees etc)
Free school buses
Free school meals.

Medical and emergency services:
Free visits to the doctor, hospital etc.
Prescriptions in a chemist average out about 4 pounds a time.
Free ambulance
Free fire service.

Council services etc:
Refuse collection
Rubbish/white goods removal services (council will take away old washing machines, fish washers, mattresses etc etc etc for free)
No water charges.

Roads:
Much lower motor tax
No tolls on the roads.
No VRT

(I'm sure theirs a few things I've forgot)

What we will receive for our property tax/HHC:
Nothing.



So yeah folks.

Its exactly like the norths rates system. :rolleyes:

For the love of God, stop comparing them :mad:

Now i'd pay 100e for that Ghandee. Well worth it

Ghandee

tayto lover wrote: »

Now i'd pay 100e for that Ghandee. Well worth it

You see,b the prob is Tayto, I'd actually pay the (rumoured) 700€ charge if it included these services.

And if it was renamed as a service charge/rates or whatever the hell else they'd like to call it, as long as its not a 'tax' on my property.

I won't pay a fixed fee annually and get nothing in return.(never even mind bad value for money)

I won't pay a tax to live in my own abode. Ever.

bgrizzley

Ghandee wrote: »

You see,b the prob is Tayto, I'd actually pay the (rumoured) 700€ charge if it included these services.

And if it was renamed as a service charge/rates or whatever the hell else they'd like to call it, as long as its not a 'tax' on my property.

I won't pay a fixed fee annually and get nothing in return.(never even mind bad value for money)

I won't pay a tax to live in my own abode. Ever.

+1 this is the cruncher.

i would even pay this money, and more, just to get us Ireland of the sh1t, no providing of imaginary services necessary.
Just put the tax on me personally, not a feckin rent on my home that i am already paying for, with money i already pay tax on and that i built with materials i already paid tax on.
Otherwise, you'll be waiting, Phil.

Izzy Skint

Ghandee, loved your last 2 posts, great stuff. I too would pay €700 a year for all that with no hesitation. But, as you say, we will get none of that, the governments intentions are quite clear, this tax will disappear into the deficit black hole.
I would hope that all this will open peoples eyes to the robbery, lies, deception, rip off that us in the 26 counties are being subjected to....

dxhound2005

Izzy Skint wrote: »

DX, being only a child in the 70's I know nothing of tax system at that time. When you get the time, could you give us a run down of how it worked then ?...how was it calculated, how was it collected, who was liable etc.
I am interested to know as I would like to compare the situation then with our current situation, and, would such a system work now ?
Just one more question, if the system we had in the 70's was very similar to the one in the North now, did people in the 70's get all those services for their tax that those in the North enjoy now ?

....thanks IZZY SKINT (yes he is !):)

You can examine the system in the North to see how things were here in the past. Their Rates is a tax on ownership and occupation, you have to own a property to be liable just like the Household Charge and the Property Tax here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672338.html

What services are provided from property taxes varies internationally. For instance some areas of the England have separate water charges apart from Council Tax and this will almost certainly be introduced in the North in future.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jan/31/water-consumer-affairs


Before 1977 Rates provided about two thirds of local government spending here but when they were abolished for private houses this reduced drastically since only businesses pay rates now. The Local Government Fund is now dependent mostly on income tax and has always been subject to the vagaries of central government. If the Property Tax gets up and running I can't see any future government abolishing it again.

At the moment I pay €280 for bins and €100 Household Charge and I think I am getting a better deal than my friend in the North who pays £2100 in Rates.

kr7

dxhound2005 wrote: »

At the moment I pay €280 for bins and €100 Houshehold Charge and I think I am getting a better deal than my friend in the North who pays £2100 in Rates.

When that increases to say €1000 for household charge, €500 water charge + your €280 for bins and any other charge they think of, will you still think the same?

Not forgetting the extortionate rate of VRT, road tax, paying for schoolbooks , doctors fees, costs of medication etc etc.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You can examine the system in the North to see how things were here in the past. Their Rates is a tax on ownership and occupation, you have to own a property to be liable just like the Household Charge and the Property Tax here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672338.html

What services are provided from property taxes varies internationally. For instance some areas of the England have separate water charges apart from Council Tax and this will almost certainly be introduced in the North in future.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jan/31/water-consumer-affairs


Before 1977 Rates provided about two thirds of local government spending here but when they were abolished for private houses this reduced drastically since only businesses pay rates now. The Local Government Fund is now dependent mostly on income tax and has always been subject to the vagaries of central government. If the Property Tax gets up and running I can't see any future government abolishing it again.

At the moment I pay €280 for bins and €100 Houshehold Charge and I think I am getting a better deal than my FICTIONAL friend in the North who pays £2100 in Rates.

FYP

faral

you should pay 100 euro without any complaint.its only a Saturday night out (not even in many cases)I think rate for household charge in here should be around a 1000 euro. now its petty cash

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You can examine the system in the North to see how things were here in the past. Their Rates is a tax on ownership and occupation, you have to own a property to be liable just like the Household Charge and the Property Tax here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672338.html

What services are provided from property taxes varies internationally. For instance some areas of the England have separate water charges apart from Council Tax and this will almost certainly be introduced in the North in future.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jan/31/water-consumer-affairs


Before 1977 Rates provided about two thirds of local government spending here but when they were abolished for private houses this reduced drastically since only businesses pay rates now. The Local Government Fund is now dependent mostly on income tax and has always been subject to the vagaries of central government. If the Property Tax gets up and running I can't see any future government abolishing it again.

At the moment I pay €280 for bins and €100 Houshehold Charge and I think I am getting a better deal than my friend in the North who pays £2100 in Rates.

Have you kids that need to be schooled?
Do you own a car?
Ever needed the fire brigade or an ambulance? (bet you didn't need the five hundred euro bill afterwards if you did)
Ever needed to go to the gp or A&E?

As an idea on how cartels work in the South, think on this.

In Newry, one can walk into boots/Tesco etc and buy a pack's of ibuforen for sixteen PENCE (about twenty cent or so)

In Dublin, boots charge 2.49 (this alone is bad enough) but, if you need more than a pack (which, if you suffer from chronic back pain, you will need more than one no doubt about it) you need a prescription from the doctor.

Doctor charges you fifty euro just to see him.

So, 50€ + 5 x packs of ibuforen at 2.49 each = €62.45 in total.
Guy in Newry pays only 5 x ibuforen @ 16.p each = £0.80p, (or a euro in our money)


You quite deliberately ignored all the rest of my post Dx (again).

The time t o stand up to the robbery in this country has came to a head folks, only you can stand up and say enough!

Izzy Skint

slightly off topic but still relevant to the situation this country is in...
People have discussed here about what would a fair rate of social welfare be, how much per week ?.... I am not going to say a number but what I would say is this: "a SINGLE person working a full week at the minimum wage rate should be financially MUCH better off than even a family on welfare".... It can be calculated from that statement. Notice how I said much better off, not by €20 or €30 but a lot more, also notice I compared a working single person to a family on welfare. Otherwise there is no incentive for those on welfare and there is no advantage for the worker.

At present, it hardly pays a person on the average industrial wage to work. A number of years ago people were questioning the benefits of living on social welfare as opposed to working, since then it has just got worse, and yet the gubberment are planning new taxes, prsi increases, allowance cuts etc. to tip the balance even further in favour of those on social welfare....work does not pay, you get no reward for going out and supporting your family (and the country)...but you are rewarded for doing nothing, sit on your hole all day, read the papers, go to bookies, go to pub, go to park with kids, etc.
Of course not all on welfare want to be idle, many do want to work, but there are many who don't and these alone account for billions out of the social welfare budget.
Since the sh*t hit the fan back in 2008 the govt. has increased the cost of EVERY public service I can think of. They should in fact be doing the opposite and bursting their b*alls to reduce the cost of living. Way back in 2002 Eddie Hobbs drew our attention to the cost of living increases and the rip offs we were being subjected to, he severely criticised the banks and gubberment but he was himself severely attacked by govt. ministers until he had to back down and cool off his attacks.
The govt. now say that they have little room to reduce welfare due to the cost of living in this country, which is completely all of their own doing !!!!....and what about the workers ? the cost of living is high for them too and they have to pay for everything, they get nothing off the govt. !!!!....why do the govt. never listen to people who actually know what they are talking about ????

A country that does not reward those who work and pay tax will ultimately come off the rails. We are in a global economy, we must become competitive, otherwise we will be left behind.

darkhorse

I'm afraid if things do go that the way that some of the above posters talk about in terms of future charges, we will be reduced to little more than a third world country, those of us that are left in the country that is.

dxhound2005

Someone in the North with a big house will easily pay over £2000 in Rates. Some of the highest Rates are set by Councils that have high Sinn Fein representation, like Newry and Mourne the district where my very real friend lives.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672338.html

Finally, with an expanding family and the absence of a garden, we moved to the Balmoral area of south Belfast. In the revaluation our house was reckoned to be worth over £400,000. But for rates purposes domestic valuations are capped at that figure and we were left with an annual bill of £2,685.60 (€3,221)

Ghandee

faral wrote: »

you should pay 100 euro without any complaint.its only a Saturday night out (not even in many cases)I think rate for household charge in here should be around a 1000 euro. now its petty cash

You should pay for ten families who can't afford to pay anything, seeing as how its seemingly no problem to you, and such good value for money in your eyes.