Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Someone in the North with a big house will easily pay over £2000 in Rates. Some of the highest Rates are set by Councils that have high Sinn Fein representation, like Newry and Mourne the district where my very real friend lives.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672338.html

Finally, with an expanding family and the absence of a garden, we moved to the Balmoral area of south Belfast. In the revaluation our house was reckoned to be worth over £400,000. But for rates purposes domestic valuations are capped at that figure and we were left with an annual bill of £2,685.60 (€3,221)

Again, ignored the rest of my post and the facts contained in it.

Don't see the need to mention SF tbh.

FWIW, the wealthiest areas in the north all tend to be in DUP led council areas actually.

Doubt me? Check out the wealthiest area in Ulster, which is North Down (Ards peninsula) bangor, Donaghadee etc (some of the highest rate of millionaires in the north) which unbelievably have NO nationalist council members at all.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Down_Borough_Council

Dx, I'm sorry but you are a consistent liar, you ignore facts, and are a propagandist.
I urge everyone to take your posts with more than a pinch of salt.

Caught out lying once again. Tut tut tut.:cool:

Edit.

Here's a link about the area 'Balmoral' in Belfast which you've also quoted, quite an affluent area actually, takes in stormont area, Lisburn road and the Malone road (undoubtedly the wealthiest area of Belfast)

Councils here? Alliance, followed by DUP (Ian paisleys gang)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balmoral_(District_Electoral_Area)

Izzy Skint

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You can examine the system in the North to see how things were here in the past. Their Rates is a tax on ownership and occupation, you have to own a property to be liable just like the Household Charge and the Property Tax here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0124/1224310672338.html

What services are provided from property taxes varies internationally. For instance some areas of the England have separate water charges apart from Council Tax and this will almost certainly be introduced in the North in future.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jan/31/water-consumer-affairs


Before 1977 Rates provided about two thirds of local government spending here but when they were abolished for private houses this reduced drastically since only businesses pay rates now. The Local Government Fund is now dependent mostly on income tax and has always been subject to the vagaries of central government. If the Property Tax gets up and running I can't see any future government abolishing it again.

At the moment I pay €280 for bins and €100 Household Charge and I think I am getting a better deal than my friend in the North who pays £2100 in Rates.

thank you for the links. As I have said, I would consider paying something, perhaps €700 - €1000 a year IF I was getting the services they get in the North and if the cost of living here was more in line with the North....but I can't and won't accept property tax to pay for services which I will not get anyway, and with a cost of living that is crippling families....

Izzy Skint

darkhorse wrote: »

I'm afraid if things do go that the way that some of the above posters talk about in terms of future charges, we will be reduced to little more than a third world country, those of us that are left in the country that is.

about 10 years ago I suggested emmigration to my wife, I could see the country was heading for very bad times at some stage in the future. I thought this, not because of the magical housing bubble, it was going to happen due to the extortionate rise in living costs, this being Ireland, I knew the govt. would never bring these costs down....anyway, being a bit of a homebird she was not interested, I remember saying to her then , 'ok, but this country is going to become a sh*thole to live in'.......the rest is history....I remind her at least once a week now !

DoesNotCompute

Ghandee wrote: »

Are you a private sector employee? Can't fathom how you're in favour of these charges if you are tbh

Hardly relevant. No matter what sector I work/worked/would have worked in I'd still pay this tax, as I believe it is the morally correct thing to do.

DoesNotCompute

donalg1 wrote: »

The sq foot would be handiest as the Govt would have this info already in the planning permission.

According to the Indo (not the most reliable source):

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/letter-plan-to-target-household-tax-dodgers-3126782.html wrote:

Government sources say the property tax is expected to be in the form of a 'site valuation tax', which assesses the value of the site itself and ignores the value of the house built on it.


As the tax is on the raw value of the site, it takes account of the location more than the physical bricks and mortar of the house itself.


So two houses side-by-side -- one rundown and one modern -- on the same size site, would be levied the same amount of property tax.


An expert group is due to report back before the summer with a formula for applying the property tax.


In order to introduce it in time for next year, the Government will have to make decisions and announce the system by the autumn.


The key elements of the equation to be considered for the site valuation property tax will be the:


- Value of the property.


- Regional differences between property values.


- Methods of payment.


- Help for low-income households.


- Alleviation for those who paid high stamp duty or first-time buyers during the property boom.


- Waivers to apply for council tenants.


- Assistance for those getting state help to pay their mortgage.


The expert group also has to work out how to audit the system to ensure householders are paying the right amount and how to enforce the system with penalties for failing to pay.

So it looks like they are going to with the location, more than the size of the house or the value of the land it's built on.

DoesNotCompute

Am Chile wrote: »

Very good post, good questions posed as to how they will value properties.

Terrible post, full of ranting and excessive exclamation marks.

Am Chile wrote: »

If houses in Estate A happen to be more expensive to buy then Estate B will everyone living in Estate A be asked to pay a higher amount valued property tax for that housing estate ? also Some have said in a
scenario of two neighbours lets call them the Ryan Family and the Cummins family if one neighbour the Ryan Family has a bigger back garden then the other neighbour or a more expensive kitchen and bathroom the Ryan family be asked to pay more property tax, then how will they know who has a bigger back garden or a more expensive kitchen and bathroom, will people be asked to get auctioneers to value their homes or would people be given the self assessment option and value the home themselves.

See my post above, quoting the Indo. The property tax is likely to be based on a house's location, rather than how big the garden is, or how fancy the kitchen is. :rolleyes:

Ghandee

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Hardly relevant. No matter what sector I work/worked/would have worked in I'd still pay this tax, as I believe it is the morally correct thing to do.

Ah but you see, its very relevant indeed.

A public sector worker (or even a shill) could be seen as having a vested interest in ensuring his or her gravy continues to be poured over the spuds or not. As such could not really be seen as being impartial or neutral in the whole argument now could they?

I'm going to assume your a ps/cs worker so.

Above you'll see three or four, sensible, honest and viable reasons from me, why a property tax where we get nothing in return for money paid over the year is unfair,v especially when compared with the rates system in the six counties that constantly gets bandied about this thread.

I've seen no reason, nor even attempted justification as to why a person should be expected to shell out several (rumoured seven).hundred euro next year on top of all the taxes and charges they're already paying out next year is fair and equitable,v apart from a few 'its the law' excuses.

If you are a private sector employee, please feel free to correct me. But your refusal to answer the question leads me to make my own assumption. And as such, your opinion can hardly be seen as a neutral one though can it?

Better get used to chef sauce on the spuds mate, the gravy is about to run out......

murphyebass

When is this actually going to end??

ie when are those who haven't bothered / cant pay going to actually get prosecuted or those who abided the law and paid their bill get refunded?

Ghandee

murphyebass wrote: »

When is this actually going to end??

ie when are those who haven't bothered / cant pay going to actually get prosecuted

Never, this won't happen.

murphyebass wrote: »

or those who abided the law and paid their bill get refunded?

Neither will this, its already been spent wasted this year. (yoink, says Enda)

DoesNotCompute

Ghandee wrote: »

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Hardly relevant. No matter what sector I work/worked/would have worked in I'd still pay this tax, as I believe it is the morally correct thing to do.

Ah but you see, its very relevant indeed.

A public sector worker (or even a shill) could be seen as having a vested interest in ensuring his or her gravy continues to be poured over the spuds or not. As such could not really be seen as being impartial or neutral in the whole argument now could they?

I'm going to assume your a ps/cs worker so.

Above you'll see three or four, sensible, honest and viable reasons from me, why a property tax where we get nothing in return for money paid over the year is unfair,v especially when compared with the rates system in the six counties that constantly gets bandied about this thread.

I've seen no reason, nor even attempted justification as to why a person should be expected to shell out several (rumoured seven).hundred euro next year on top of all the taxes and charges they're already paying out next year is fair and equitable,v apart from a few 'its the law' excuses.

If you are a private sector employee, please feel free to correct me. But your refusal to answer the question leads me to make my own assumption. And as such, your opinion can hardly be seen as a neutral one though can it?

Better get used to chef sauce on the spuds mate, the gravy is about to run out......

Wow, and up until now you had me convinced that the HHC was going straight to German bond holders. Turns out it's actually going to the public sector gravy train. Never saw that one coming.

Ghandee

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Wow, and up until now you had me convinced that the HHC was going straight to German bond holders. Turns out it's actually going to the public sector gravy train. Never saw that one coming.

Regardless of where it is going.

You, me, and everyone else know where its not going.... Don't we?

kr7

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

According to the Indo (not the most reliable source):



So it looks like they are going to with the location, more than the size of the house or the value of the land it's built on.

So someone who lives in a 'better' area will pay more than someone who lives in a 'not so good' area?

People in the major cities will pay more than someone living out in the country even though the services in the country are more expensive to provide.

Only in Ireland.

kr7

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Hardly relevant. No matter what sector I work/worked/would have worked in I'd still pay this tax, as I believe it is the morally correct thing to do.

Your moral compass is wrong.

kr7

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Wow, and up until now you had me convinced that the HHC was going straight to German bond holders. Turns out it's actually going to the public sector gravy train. Never saw that one coming.

So do you work in the PS/CS?
A refusal to answer will confirm that you do.
Thank you.

Ghandee

kr7 wrote: »

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Wow, and up until now you had me convinced that the HHC was going straight to German bond holders. Turns out it's actually going to the public sector gravy train. Never saw that one coming.

So do you work in the PS/CS?
A refusal to answer will confirm that you do.
Thank you.

They do.

So, hardly and impartial opinion tbh.

tbh

kr7 wrote: »

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Wow, and up until now you had me convinced that the HHC was going straight to German bond holders. Turns out it's actually going to the public sector gravy train. Never saw that one coming.

So do you work in the PS/CS?
A refusal to answer will confirm that you do.
Thank you.

What kind of bull**** argument is that?

donalg1

kr7 wrote: »

So do you work in the PS/CS?
A refusal to answer will confirm that you do.
Thank you.

What difference does it make where he works, I mean who the hell cares, wherever he works he will be liable to pay the HHC and Property tax when its introduced so I fail to see the relevance of where he is employed. Unless of course he is at the top of the so called "gravy train" :rolleyes:.

No harm in turning yet another thread in to a public v private debate anyway, sure there isnt enough of them already.

kr7

donalg1 wrote: »

What difference does it make where he works, I mean who the hell cares, wherever he works he will be liable to pay the HHC and Property tax when its introduced so I fail to see the relevance of where he is employed. Unless of course he is at the top of the so called "gravy train" :rolleyes:.

No harm in turning yet another thread in to a public v private debate anyway, sure there isnt enough of them already.

I'm just interested to know where the guy works.
Have you a problem with that?

Like it or not there are people who work in the private sector who are being hammered and cost the state nothing and then there is the PS/CS, in this sector pay rises seem to be the norm and the thought of industrial action seems to scare the government.

It's obvious to anyone that the money collected from households will go towards paying PS workers so it is relevant to this discussion.

tayto lover

donalg1 wrote: »

What difference does it make where he works, I mean who the hell cares, wherever he works he will be liable to pay the HHC and Property tax when its introduced so I fail to see the relevance of where he is employed. Unless of course he is at the top of the so called "gravy train" :rolleyes:.

No harm in turning yet another thread in to a public v private debate anyway, sure there isnt enough of them already.

That Public v Private thing is a way of dividing people and when you do that then you can introduce whatever you like in taxes because one side will always think the other is better off.
All sides should stick together and cuts should happen at the top of both sectors.

kr7

tayto lover wrote: »

That Public v Private thing is a way of dividing people and when you do that then you can introduce whatever you like in taxes because one side will always think the other is better off.
All sides should stick together and cuts should happen at the top of both sectors.

If the CEO of a large company is driving that company on and creating employment here then that company should reward him/her for doing a good job.

The people at the top of the PS/CS are bleeding the exchequer and giving very little in return.What they earn is way out of line with the rest of europe.

tayto lover

kr7 wrote: »

If the CEO of a large company is driving that company on and creating employment here then that company should reward him/her for doing a good job.

The people at the top of the PS/CS are bleeding the exchequer and giving very little in return.What they earn is way out of line with the rest of europe.

Agree to a point but don't forget the Bankers were Private Sector.

kr7

tayto lover wrote: »

Agree to a point but don't forget the Bankers were Private Sector.

Very true.

Banks are letting people go at the moment, so any top banker should not be getting any bonuses let alone the €600-€700k + perks they presently receive.

donalg1

kr7 wrote: »

I'm just interested to know where the guy works.
Have you a problem with that?

Like it or not there are people who work in the private sector who are being hammered and cost the state nothing and then there is the PS/CS, in this sector pay rises seem to be the norm and the thought of industrial action seems to scare the government.

It's obvious to anyone that the money collected from households will go towards paying PS workers so it is relevant to this discussion.

Ok obvious to anyone good one. :rolleyes:

And as a private sector worker what do you think will happen if the government cuts the wages of your customers, do you think this could possibly have any affect on your income?

I would think that a PS worker who has had a 14% pay cut would have been hammered as you say and would have less to spend in the local economy, wouldnt you agree? Given the fact that alot of their wages are returned straight away to the govt in the form of income tax, pensions, pension levy, usc, prsi, then the rest is handed over to the private sector. But yeah slash everyones wages because that wont have any affect whatsoever on small businesses or their employees

kr7

donalg1 wrote: »

Ok obvious to anyone good one. :rolleyes:

What do propose to do with the money collected then?
Put it in a piggy bank?
Or will it not be used to pay the wages of PS workers?

The point is that there seems to be a lot of posters on here, in favour of this tax, who work in the PS.
Are they afraid that if the tax is not collected that they might have to take a pay cut?
Fact is that average earnings in the PS are about half as much again as in the private sector.

PUBLIC-SECTOR workers have received more than €1.2bn in incremental pay increases since Ireland's worst-ever recession began in 2007, despite the dire state of the public finances.

Figures from the Department of Finance show that although the country has had to borrow roughly €20bn a year to run the State since 2008, length-of-service pay increases have continued across all departments, agencies and organisations in the public sector.

Staff are still seeing their gross salaries increase because the Government is allowing them to receive increased pay purely on the basis of time served.

Ireland should consider cutting public sector wages -- even if it means breaking the Croke Park deal -- to reflect falling private sector incomes, the head of the employment division of the Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) has said.

"At a time when private sector wages are adjusting rapidly it would be prudent to also put into the hopper public sector wages and working conditions," John Martin said.

"If the [Croke Park] agreement constrains the ability of the Government to make some changes in that regard, I think our view would be there should be a bit more flexibility," he said.

The public sector pay bill in 2010 was €15.1bn, and official figures show that state employees earn one-third more than their private sector counterparts.

According to a new Central Statistics Office report on wages, weekly earnings in the public sector rose from a three-year low of €882 a week in the first quarter of 2010 to €913 in the final quarter. In contrast, in the final quarter of 2010, weekly earnings in the private sector were almost a third lower at €625.

Ireland's public sector pay structure is substantially higher than most other European countries and, on average, one-third higher than public sector workers in Britain. Latest comparable figures show that average British public service weekly earnings were €634 compared with the €913 paid to state employees here.

Some civil servants at the top of their respective pay scales are getting wage rises of €2,400 for long service. The previous government shied away from further angering public sector workers already reeling from pension and income levy increases.

A sample survey across a range of departments shows an average payout of €2,345 for the civil servants entitled to the long-service payments. The pay scales in the public sector see most workers go up the scale each year, meaning their gross salary increases on an annual basis.

A spokeswoman from the Department of Finance explained: "Suspending increments would have an uneven impact and would disproportionately affect lower-paid staff. Higher-paid public service grades have, in general, significantly shorter incremental scales than lower-paid staff and, consequently, more of them are at the maximum of scales. Some higher-paid grades do not have incremental scales at all and their salaries are single points."

The cost of increments is set to fall as numbers in the public service fall. Thirty-seven per cent of civil servants are eligible for an annual increment this year, however this excludes long-service increments which are applicable in some cases after three or six years.

Of that, 53 per cent are at clerical officer grade or lower, who are paid between €22,015 on a scale up to a maximum of €38,135 over 14 years.

Before entering office, several Fine Gael ministers, including Leo Varadkar and Richard Bruton, called on the incremental pay increases to be frozen as long as the country remains in recession.

Given the arrival of the IMF last November and the change of government, Public Expenditure and Reform Minister Brendan Howlin is set to come under significant pressure to end the practice as part of any reform process. The Department of Finance said €250m was spent on salary increments in the public sector last year.

darkhorse

Hi DNC,

They hav'nt figured out what you do yet. Will I tell 'em. Ok, the avatar gives it away. He is the guy in the Simpsons that owns the comic shop. He sells a lot of rare comics, therefore can well afford to pay top doller for govt. services/non services.:D:D

donalg1

kr7 wrote: »

What do propose to do with the money collected then?
Put it in a piggy bank?
Or will it not be used to pay the wages of PS workers?

The point is that there seems to be a lot of posters on here, in favour of this tax, who work in the PS.
Are they afraid that if the tax is not collected that they might have to take a pay cut?
Fact is that average earnings in the PS are about half as much again as in the private sector.

Who knows what it is going to be used for, some say its for local services, others say its to pay the bondholders, you are now saying it is to be used to pay the wages of the PS workers. AFAIK the PS workers are getting paid as is anyway so thats not going to change as a result of the CPA, which also stops their wages from being cut bar an increase in income tax (which personally I think should be done).

I dont think there are too many on here in favour of the HHC tbh, and I certainly doubt any PS worker here wants people to pay it so they dont have to take a pay cut as this isnt going to happen anyway. Plus there is the fact that the PS Worker has to pay it too so is unlikely to be too happy about it really.

You never answered me about what might happen to the small businesses and local economy when the wages of customers are cut. Dont forget too that if the lower paid PS workers are cut further they will be at a point where they qualify for Medical Cards and or FIS so savings there would be pretty non existant.

But dont let any of the above get in the way of good old fashioned PS bashing. :rolleyes:

While you are at it though you might want to lump in those on Social Welfare, Rent Allowance etc. make sure everyone else pays except yourself of course, and ignore the fact that taking money out of other peoples pocket will result in money being taken from your own pocket.

donalg1

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

According to the Indo (not the most reliable source):



So it looks like they are going to with the location, more than the size of the house or the value of the land it's built on.

Probably makes the most sense by the looks of it easiest way of calculating it and then the actual value cant be disputed plus you wont have neighbours saying "their kitchen is nicer than mine yet I am paying more why is that"

Izzy Skint

donalg1 wrote: »

Who knows what it is going to be used for, some say its for local services, others say its to pay the bondholders, you are now saying it is to be used to pay the wages of the PS workers. AFAIK the PS workers are getting paid as is anyway so thats not going to change as a result of the CPA, which also stops their wages from being cut bar an increase in income tax (which personally I think should be done).

I dont think there are too many on here in favour of the HHC tbh, and I certainly doubt any PS worker here wants people to pay it so they dont have to take a pay cut as this isnt going to happen anyway. Plus there is the fact that the PS Worker has to pay it too so is unlikely to be too happy about it really.

You never answered me about what might happen to the small businesses and local economy when the wages of customers are cut. Dont forget too that if the lower paid PS workers are cut further they will be at a point where they qualify for Medical Cards and or FIS so savings there would be pretty non existant.

But dont let any of the above get in the way of good old fashioned PS bashing. :rolleyes:

While you are at it though you might want to lump in those on Social Welfare, Rent Allowance etc. make sure everyone else pays except yourself of course, and ignore the fact that taking money out of other peoples pocket will result in money being taken from your own pocket.

And money is also being taken from private sector workers pockets, and the gubberment want to take even more with the introduction of property / water charges. People who work in the ps should be just as opposed to these charges as private sector workers are.
Yes, you are correct, we do pay too much in social welfare, rent allowance etc. the cost of living here is high....who's fault is that ?

What is wrong with ps bashing? as far as I am concerned it is here where the gubberment can make billions in savings, it is where my hard earned tax is going to support a huge number of lazy, self indulgent, over paid, under performing, pampered employees with guaranteed jobs.
I have the right to criticise them, I PAY THEIR WAGES.
14% pay cut, yeah, it was 14% of an excessive salary.

We have the third highest paid teachers in Europe, behind Luxembourg and Switzerland, and we have the 4'th highest paid teachers in the developed world behind Lux. Switz and South Korea....yet on a league table of student grades and performance we are way down...sometimes as low as 30'th or 40'th on these tables....good value for money there eh ?....
Teachers received over €500m in extra allowances last year alone !...and that is on top of their wages, and yet Ruairi Quinn is afraid to even mention any possible cuts to these allowances, teaching unions have warned him early...stay away from these or else...

I will say it again, it is far more beneficial for the gubberment to cut its spending rather than maintain its current spending and raising additional taxes...they are not addressing the root cause of the deficit which is overspending brought about by excessive wage increases and staff numbers during the 'boom'....the 'boom' is over so we must reverse the increases....it is simple logic really.

Of course they will be taking money out of the economy but the benefits of reducing spending will, in the long run far outweigh this.

kr7

donalg1 wrote: »

Who knows what it is going to be used for, some say its for local services, others say its to pay the bondholders, you are now saying it is to be used to pay the wages of the PS workers. AFAIK the PS workers are getting paid as is anyway so thats not going to change as a result of the CPA, which also stops their wages from being cut bar an increase in income tax (which personally I think should be done).

I dont think there are too many on here in favour of the HHC tbh, and I certainly doubt any PS worker here wants people to pay it so they dont have to take a pay cut as this isnt going to happen anyway. Plus there is the fact that the PS Worker has to pay it too so is unlikely to be too happy about it really.

You never answered me about what might happen to the small businesses and local economy when the wages of customers are cut. Dont forget too that if the lower paid PS workers are cut further they will be at a point where they qualify for Medical Cards and or FIS so savings there would be pretty non existant.

But dont let any of the above get in the way of good old fashioned PS bashing. :rolleyes:

While you are at it though you might want to lump in those on Social Welfare, Rent Allowance etc. make sure everyone else pays except yourself of course, and ignore the fact that taking money out of other peoples pocket will result in money being taken from your own pocket.

I'm not saying cut the wages of the average PS/CS worker, I'm saying that the ones towards the higher end of the scale should be cut and cut severely.

There's too many chief's and not enough indians if you know what i mean.

Social welfare should be cut in line with the cost of living but not slashed as some on here seem to suggest.

Also, I know a lot os PS workers (local county council) who live in rented council houses, do you think they should pay for their services?

I will pay more income tax if I have to, but I will not pay a tax on the roof over my head.
I paid enough tax on that in stamp duty, VAT and council levies when I extended it a number of years ago.
Now I'm to be taxed again because my home is bigger than someone elses??

kr7

donalg1 wrote: »

Probably makes the most sense by the looks of it easiest way of calculating it and then the actual value cant be disputed plus you wont have neighbours saying "their kitchen is nicer than mine yet I am paying more why is that"

My immediate neighbour lives in a 7000 sq ft house with a summer house on site too.
My house is about 2000 sq ft.
They are multi-millionaire's who happened to make a lot of their money as developers.
I work for myself and pay my dues (except this one) and just about get by.

Is it right that we should pay the same amount because we live in the same location?