Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

dvpower

kr7 wrote: »

You say your private sector but you could be anyone.

It's the beauty of boards.......anonymity.

You could be phil hogan's secret boyfriend for all we know:D

... and you could be a re reg troll, but we may never know for sure.

Am Chile

alastair wrote: »

1. I'm not conning myself that I can avoid paying for local services through direct taxation.
2. The poll tax had a clear moral argument against it, which property taxation does not.
3. I wasn't hoping that I could slip through the net by not showing up on a database.
4. I don't repeatedly claim I'm not engaging in discussion, and then continue that discussion.

2. The poll tax had a clear moral argument against it, which property taxation does not.

How property taxation actually works, how it targets the vulnerable in society which makes it an Immoral and unjust tax which must be resisted-the following is from a recent news report on property taxation.

Elderly lose their homes for as little as $400 in unpaid tax

A consumer advocacy group has issued a report highlighting a disturbing practice in which elderly and other vulnerable homeowners are losing their homes over as little as $400 in unpaid taxes.

The National Consumer Law Center (NCLC) report, "The Other Foreclosure Crisis: Property Tax Lien Sales," examines the practice of tax lien sales, in which local governments seize homes of owners who fall behind on property taxes or even utility bills. The homes are then sold at auction to major banks, investment corporations or private investors who reap massive profits from the transactions.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/328438

We can prob expect to see Elderly and other Vulnerable people in society forced out of their homes over property taxes here also which makes property taxation Immoral and unjust- even Enda Kenny said one time its morally wrong to tax the family home.

alastair

Am Chile wrote: »

How property taxation actually works, how it targets the vulnerable in society which makes it an Immoral and unjust tax which must be resisted-the following is from a recent news report on property taxation.



http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/328438

We can prob expect to see Elderly and other Vulnerable people in society forced out of their homes over property taxes here also which makes property taxation Immoral and unjust- even Enda Kenny said one time its morally wrong to tax the family home.

Really? You link to legislation in the US to make a point about a domestic law that you've not seen yet? The probability is that - like most other states - no-one will be 'forced out of their homes' by owed property tax. One benefit of property taxation is that owed taxes are tied to an asset - the property, and can be accessed by the revenue on point of sale or transfer of that property. Why not go the full nine yards and suggest that the vulnerable are being forced to sell their homes over the USC, or motor tax, or any other tax? :rolleyes:

kr7

dvpower wrote: »

... and you could be a re reg troll, but we may never know for sure.

Reading back through the last few pages you are coming across as a passive/aggressive/trollish type yourself.

You seem to rub a lot of posters up the wrong way.

PC CDROM

Why can't this money be raised through normal taxation methods? Income tax etc?

Lots of people don't own houses and they will be availing of all the amenities and services house owners will be paying for? Streetlights etc.

alastair

PC CDROM wrote: »

Why can't this money be raised through normal taxation methods? Income tax etc?

Lots of people don't own houses and they will be availing of all the amenities and services house owners will be paying for? Streetlights etc.

Income is easy to tax, until it leaves the country - which is tricky to stop. Houses are pretty hard to move to a tax haven.

Those who rent will have the tax passed on to them by their landlords - and the property tax will only contribute a small part of the costs of running local services in any case - everyone will continue to pay for amenities through taxation.

dvpower

PC CDROM wrote: »

Why can't this money be raised through normal taxation methods? Income tax etc?

Lots of people don't own houses and they will be availing of all the amenities and services house owners will be paying for? Streetlights etc.

It provides a steady dependable income stream to the state. Income tax is a tax on work, which we should try and avoid at a time of high unemployment.

bgrizzley

alastair wrote: »

Income is easy to tax, until it leaves the country - which is tricky to stop. Houses are pretty hard to move to a tax haven.

Those who rent will have the tax passed on to them by their landlords - and the property tax will only contribute a small part of the costs of running local services in any case - everyone will continue to pay for amenities through taxation.

you are not comapring like with like. the kind of people that can afford to move to a tax haven to avoid tax are the kind of people who can afford to move a house brick by brick if they desire. this tax has nothing to do with the rich. E100 notes are for lighting cigars.

this tax hits people who work hard, pay their taxes, and are already under enough pressure without piling more on.

Also everyone already pays for services through taxation.

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

Really? You link to legislation in the US to make a point about a domestic law that you've not seen yet? The probability is that - like most other states - no-one will be 'forced out of their homes' by owed property tax. One benefit of property taxation is that owed taxes are tied to an asset - the property, and can be accessed by the revenue on point of sale or transfer of that property. Why not go the full nine yards and suggest that the vulnerable are being forced to sell their homes over the USC, or motor tax, or any other tax? :rolleyes:

WE ARE:mad::mad::mad:

darkhorse

alastair wrote: »

Income is easy to tax, until it leaves the country - which is tricky to stop. Houses are pretty hard to move to a tax haven.

Those who rent will have the tax passed on to them by their landlords - and the property tax will only contribute a small part of the costs of running local services in any case - everyone will continue to pay for amenities through taxation.


Wrong, not everyone pays tax, but everyone benefits. Just to make it easy for you, instead of you wondering what am I on about, I will give you one brief example. A guy I know well, who lives not too far away from me, married, 11 kids, never worked a day in his life, blah blah blah, need I go on. I may be wrong, but there could be more of him out there.

Bishop_Donal

darkhorse wrote: »

alastair wrote: »

Income is easy to tax, until it leaves the country - which is tricky to stop. Houses are pretty hard to move to a tax haven.

Those who rent will have the tax passed on to them by their landlords - and the property tax will only contribute a small part of the costs of running local services in any case - everyone will continue to pay for amenities through taxation.


Wrong, not everyone pays tax, but everyone benefits. Just to make it easy for you, instead of you wondering what am I on about, I will give you one brief example. A guy I know well, who lives not too far away from me, married, 11 kids, never worked a day in his life, blah blah blah, need I go on. I may be wrong, but there could be more of him out there.

I don't think anyone cud argue with that what you're sayin (or will want to differ) as difficult to say otherwise unless you think the other way about it all in which case they'd say it.

darkhorse

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

darkhorse wrote: »

I don't think anyone cud argue with that what you're sayin (or will want to differ) as difficult to say otherwise unless you think the other way about it all in which case they'd say it.

Hey Bish,

Could you run that past me again, as I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. Ah, leave it til tomorrow, cause the barman says I definitely have to go now...................looow liesssss the fields or at henry.:):):)

Izzy Skint

A couple of questions directed towards all the blue nose brigade pro hhc / property tax people.....a straight yes or no will do guys...:)

1. are Irish politicians / public sector workers paid more than in the UK ?
2. are Irish public sector pensions higher than those in the UK ?
3. do Irish workers pay higher rates of tax than those in the UK ?
4. is the general cost of living in Ireland higher than in the UK ?
5. is the VAT rate in the UK lower than in Ireland ?
6. are public services in UK better than in Ireland ?
7. are childcare costs in Ireland higher than in the UK ?
8. is VRT applied to cars in the UK ?
9. are welfare payments, rent allowances etc. higher here than in the UK ?

please answer YES or NO !....and don't bother going into the fine detail as I could just as easily do the same.

There is a concil tax in the UK and considering all the advantages above, (and there are many many more !) that would be ok with me, I would pay it gladly.... reading the list above, I find it incredible that any sane person could try to justify the introduction of the property tax in Ireland...We are so obviously being ripped off big time it is almost funny !!

We are getting shafted from every angle !
The govt. can only go so far and the people will push back....I can guarantee it.
Give me some or all of the above and I will pay the prop. tax....until then not a hope....and I don't care whether it's the law or not !!!

golden lane

alastair wrote: »

Run along now - you're just digging a deeper hole.

i will take my council tax bills with me.......all fifty two years of them.....

not a problem.......you can dream on.......poor man....lol

alastair

darkhorse wrote: »

alastair wrote: »

Income is easy to tax, until it leaves the country - which is tricky to stop. Houses are pretty hard to move to a tax haven.

Those who rent will have the tax passed on to them by their landlords - and the property tax will only contribute a small part of the costs of running local services in any case - everyone will continue to pay for amenities through taxation.


Wrong, not everyone pays tax, but everyone benefits. Just to make it easy for you, instead of you wondering what am I on about, I will give you one brief example. A guy I know well, who lives not too far away from me, married, 11 kids, never worked a day in his life, blah blah blah, need I go on. I may be wrong, but there could be more of him out there.

Sorry - but it's you who's missed the point. Everyone (even your pal with the 11 kids) pays taxes - buy a mars bar for one of the 11 kiddies and the VAT goes into the state coffers - a portion of which goes to support local authority services. Now - your pal may well be a net recipient of state payments, but he's still paying taxes. Everyone contributes to local authority service funding - even if they're not liable for a property tax.

alastair

Izzy Skint wrote: »

A couple of questions directed towards all the blue nose brigade pro hhc / property tax people.....a straight yes or no will do guys...:)

1. are Irish politicians / public sector workers paid more than in the UK ?
2. are Irish public sector pensions higher than those in the UK ?
3. do Irish workers pay higher rates of tax than those in the UK ?
4. is the general cost of living in Ireland higher than in the UK ?
5. is the VAT rate in the UK lower than in Ireland ?
6. are public services in UK better than in Ireland ?
7. are childcare costs in Ireland higher than in the UK ?
8. is VRT applied to cars in the UK ?
9. are welfare payments, rent allowances etc. higher here than in the UK ?

please answer YES or NO !....and don't bother going into the fine detail as I could just as easily do the same.

There is a concil tax in the UK and considering all the advantages above, (and there are many many more !) that would be ok with me, I would pay it gladly.... reading the list above, I find it incredible that any sane person could try to justify the introduction of the property tax in Ireland...We are so obviously being ripped off big time it is almost funny !!

We are getting shafted from every angle !
The govt. can only go so far and the people will push back....I can guarantee it.
Give me some or all of the above and I will pay the prop. tax....until then not a hope....and I don't care whether it's the law or not !!!

You do know that you aren't obliged to get involved with VRT at all? You can buy a car from an Irish dealer, or just buy second-hand?

You might also consider that taxes are higher in the UK than here, and that council taxes are generally higher than the mooted property tax bands that we'll be getting soon enough.

Finally - if you don't like the levels of pay, pensions, welfare, etc applicable in this state - then vote for a candidate that intends to change them - that's what representational democracy is about. Avoiding paying your taxes isn't the mechanism for broad brushstroke societal whinging.

Bruthal

alastair wrote: »

darkhorse wrote: »

Sorry - but it's you who's missed the point. Everyone (even your pal with the 11 kids) pays taxes - buy a mars bar for one of the 11 kiddies and the VAT goes into the state coffers - a portion of which goes to support local authority services. Now - your pal may well be a net recipient of state payments, but he's still paying taxes. Everyone contributes to local authority service funding - even if they're not liable for a property tax.

I would say darkhorse is correct, unless you can tell us how someone who receives more than they pay in taxes, is now a contributor, and does what you said here

everyone will continue to pay for amenities through taxation

alastair

robbie7730 wrote: »

I would say darkhorse is correct, unless you can tell us how someone who receives more than they pay in taxes, is now a contributor, and does what you said here

You can be a contributor while still being a net recipient. That's surely self-evident?

Bruthal

alastair wrote: »

You can be a contributor while still being a net recipient. That's surely self-evident?

So, a person recieves €500 a week dole, and pays back €100 a week in mars bar vat (for his 11 kids) etc.

You say this is a person contributing to services now?

bgrizzley

alastair wrote: »

You can be a contributor while still being a net recipient. That's surely self-evident?

explain to us Alastair, how someone, who pays vat by spending money we paid into the state as tax, a contributor?

bearing in mind that darkhorses' friend never worked a day in his life.

Bruthal

bgrizzley wrote: »

explain to us Alastair, how someone, who pays vat by spending money we paid into the state as tax, a contributor?

bearing in mind that darkhorses' friend never worked a day in his life.

Our problems are over bgrizzley. Give everyone in the state €1000 a week. We all pay €800 a week tax out if it. With everyone contributing €800 a week, we will be sorted in no time.

alastair

robbie7730 wrote: »

So, a person recieves €500 a week dole, and pays back €100 a week in mars bar vat (for his 11 kids) etc.

You say this is a person contributing to services now?

Of course they are.

alastair

bgrizzley wrote: »

explain to us Alastair, how someone, who pays vat by spending money we paid into the state as tax, a contributor?

bearing in mind that darkhorses' friend never worked a day in his life.

Because being a contributor has nothing to do with being a net recipient.

alastair

robbie7730 wrote: »

Our problems are over bgrizzley. Give everyone in the state €1000 a week. We all pay €800 a week tax out if it. With everyone contributing €800 a week, we will be sorted in no time.

Q. Does every tax payer in the state contribute to local services funding or not?

A. Yes they do, through general taxation.

Any other idiotic interpretation is the responsibility of others. Sorry about that.

bgrizzley

alastair wrote: »

Because being a contributor has nothing to do with being a net recipient.

so let me get this straight......

Little johnny collects marbles. little mike has none so johnny gives him 5 cause he is a kind kid.
little mike gives one back to johnny and says, "i just wanted to add to your marblecollection, no need to thank me"

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

so let me get this straight......

Little johnny collects marbles. little mike has none so johnny gives him 5 cause he is a kind kid.
little mike gives one back to johnny and says, "i just wanted to add to your marblecollection, no need to thank me"

Little johnny (national exchequer) collects marbles. little mike (welfare recipient) has none so johnny gives him 5 cause he is a kind kid. Little mike gives one marble to little Mary (local authority).

Has little mike made a contribution to little Mary? Yes, of course he has.

alastair

bgrizzley wrote: »

so let me get this straight......

Little johnny collects marbles. little mike has none so johnny gives him 5 cause he is a kind kid.
little mike gives one back to johnny and says, "i just wanted to add to your marblecollection, no need to thank me"

If that's a roundabout means of evading the fact that a contribution might mean a greater return to the contributor, then it's a pretty inane one - you didn't even make it entertaining.

Why not just pay your taxes and be done with the whiney petulance?

kr7

dvpower wrote: »

Little johnny (national exchequer) collects marbles. little mike (welfare recipient) has none so johnny gives him 5 cause he is a kind kid. Little mike gives one marble to little Mary (local authority).

Has little mike made a contribution to little Mary? Yes, of course he has.

Wouldn't it have been easier if little johnny just gave little mike 4 marbles and gave 1 to little mary?

steve9859

UK Council tax = tax on residents to pay for local services = fair. I pay it without question in London in my rented apartment (I was forced to leave Ireland to find a good job)

Ireland Household tax = tax on property owners, tenants get off scot free = unfair.

I am passing as much as possible on to my tenants. If it goes up to €750 (based on the oft quoted 0.003%), my tenants will pay about €500. Anyone who claims that the household tax is to pay for local services cannot complain about me passing it on to my tenants, who use those local services. (it is in a sought after location, and I have already agreed the increase). To the government who want to squeeze more out of property owners, I say "**** you"

bgrizzley

alastair wrote: »

If that's a roundabout means of evading the fact that a contribution might mean a greater return to the contributor, then it's a pretty inane one - you didn't even make it entertaining.

Why not just pay your taxes and be done with the whiney petulance?

like you did in the UK :rolleyes: