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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #4592
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    dvpower wrote: »
    Little johnny (national exchequer) collects marbles. little mike (welfare recipient) has none so johnny gives him 5 cause he is a kind kid. Little mike gives one marble to little Mary (local authority).

    Has little mike made a contribution to little Mary? Yes, of course he has.


    i stand corrected. you are dead right, mike has contributed johnnys marbles to mary.


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    #4593
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    steve9859 wrote: »
    UK Council tax = tax on residents to pay for local services = fair. I pay it without question in London in my rented apartment (I was forced to leave Ireland to find a good job)

    Ireland Household tax = tax on property owners, tenants get off scot free = unfair.

    I am passing as much as possible on to my tenants. If it goes up to €750 (based on the oft quoted 0.003%), my tenants will pay about €500. Anyone who claims that the household tax is to pay for local services cannot complain about me passing it on to my tenants, who use those local services. (it is in a sought after location, and I have already agreed the increase). To the government who want to squeeze more out of property owners, I say "**** you"

    Landlord crying poormouth over having to pay their taxes, while admitting they're passing on the overhead? I'd say many would be saying "**** you".


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    #4594
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    like you did in the UK :rolleyes:

    Yep - I paid council tax and rates. Like I said - I didn't pretend that local services need not be paid for.


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    #4595
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    Landlord crying poormouth over having to pay their taxes, while admitting they're passing on the overhead? I'd say many would be saying "**** you".


    attack a guy for paying the HHC, you just cant decide what side you are on lol


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    #4596
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    Yep - I paid council tax and rates. Like I said - I didn't pretend that local services need not be paid for.


    you know i meant the poll tax, which you evaded.


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    #4597
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    kr7 wrote: »
    Wouldn't it have been easier is little johnny just gave little mike 4 marbles and gave 1 to little mary?
    Do you mean fund all local services directly from the central exchequer? No. I think its more transparent when they are funded seperatly.

    Before the HHC / Property Tax was introduced people hardly ever scrutinised local authority value for money. As soon as a seperate charge is implemented, people are up in arms about the quality and level of service they get.
    This is a good thing - when people are paying a substantial proportion of LA funding directly they will demand value for money.


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    #4598
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    alastair wrote: »
    Landlord crying poormouth over having to pay their taxes, while admitting they're passing on the overhead? I'd say many would be saying "**** you".

    Yeah, a landlord like many out there who are only landlords by virtue of the fact that they have had to leave the country to find work and are unable to sell the house, thereby being left with a mortgage which is higher than rent and a monthly shortfall to cover, along with rent in the new place.

    So forgive me if I don't lose any sleep over getting the tenants to pay.

    Government says this is a tax to pay for local services......well, I don't use those local services....the people who live there do.


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    #4599
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    i stand corrected. you are dead right, mike has contributed johnnys marbles to mary.
    Glad that was cleared up.


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    #4600
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    attack a guy for paying the HHC, you just cant decide what side you are on lol

    Just to state the obvious - I'm not attacking anyone for paying their taxes.


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    #4601
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    steve9859 wrote: »

    Government says this is a tax to pay for local services......well, I don't use those local services....the people who live there do.

    Government says it's a tax on property ownership, which is used to pay for local services. You do own the property, yep? It's an asset you can liquidate down the line, yep?


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    #4602
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    Just to state the obvious - I'm not attacking anyone for paying their taxes.

    You can't really. That would be hypocritical wouldn't it:p


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    #4603
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    You can't really. That would be hypocritical wouldn't it:p

    I'm sure you thought you posted something clever there.


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    #4604
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Q. Does every tax payer in the state contribute to local services funding or not?

    A. Yes they do, through general taxation.

    Any other idiotic interpretation is the responsibility of others. Sorry about that.

    No, some do, others just hand back money they got from the state. You see that as contributing. And then use the word idiotic.


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    #4605
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    alastair wrote: »
    Government says it's a tax on property ownership, which is used to pay for local services. You do own the property, yep? It's an asset you can liquidate down the line, yep?

    although it's not really though, the reality it's a tax on everyone except landlords, because the landlord will pass it on to tennants at the first available opportunity.
    and if that tennant is on RA, then it's being partially covered out of government coffers, so owner-occupiers are getting hit by it a 2nd time.
    it's the classic "squueze the middle".


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    #4606
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    dvpower wrote: »
    Glad that was cleared up.

    So what you are telling us is, someone on the dole is contributing to the running of the state?


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    #4607
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    alastair wrote: »
    Government says it's a tax on property ownership, which is used to pay for local services. You do own the property, yep? It's an asset you can liquidate down the line, yep?

    And that's where the government has it arseways. If it is a tax on owners, it is clearly a general tax for the pot. If it a tax on residents, like in the uk (which I 100% agree with and pay on time), it is justifiably ringfenced to pay for local services. I pay for my local services in london thanks....along with a service charge in Ireland.

    So on the basis that the government wants us to think that the household charge is going toward local services, I will be passing on to my tenants (have already agreed with them)


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    #4608
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    steve9859 wrote: »
    And that's where the government has it arseways. If it is a tax on owners, it is clearly a general tax for the pot. If it a tax on residents, like in the uk (which I 100% agree with and pay on time), it is justifiably ringfenced to pay for local services. I pay for my local services in london thanks....along with a service charge in Ireland.

    So on the basis that the government wants us to think that the household charge is going toward local services, I will be passing on to my tenants (have already agreed with them)

    The HHC and property tax are equally ringfenced for local authority spending only.


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    #4609
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    So what you are telling us is, someone on the dole is contributing to the running of the state?

    Through their taxes, sure. And have you considered the distinct probability that you're also a net recipient of state and local authority services too?


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    #4610
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Through their taxes, sure. And have you considered the distinct probability that you're also a net recipient of state and local authority services too?

    Where as you are not, is that it?


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    #4611
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Where as you are not, is that it?

    I'm fairly sure that I'm also a net recipient - even though, unlike you, I'm paying my full compliment of taxes.


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    #4612
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    I'm fairly sure that I'm also a net recipient - even though, unlike you, I'm paying my full compliment of taxes.

    And what tax am I not paying alastair


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    #4613
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    And what tax am I not paying alastair

    If you're paying your HHC, fair play - but it would make your protestations here pretty hollow.


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    #4614
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    If you're paying your HHC, fair play - but it would make your protestations here pretty hollow.

    So, my protestations must be ok so. Unlike your own posts telling others to pay.

    Anyway alastair, have a good evening:)


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    #4615
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    So, my protestations must be ok so. Unlike your own posts telling others to pay.

    Anyway alastair, have a good evening:)

    That's rather too cryptic for me - have you paid your HHC or not?


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    #4616
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    alastair wrote: »
    darkhorse wrote: »

    Sorry - but it's you who's missed the point. Everyone (even your pal with the 11 kids) pays taxes - buy a mars bar for one of the 11 kiddies and the VAT goes into the state coffers - a portion of which goes to support local authority services. Now - your pal may well be a net recipient of state payments, but he's still paying taxes. Everyone contributes to local authority service funding - even if they're not liable for a property tax.


    Hey Phil/alastair,

    I feel I better explain this to you, cause no matter what anyone says, I think the need that you have to be right all the time is confusing you a wee bit. You see, if this guy, as I said, has never worked, it stands to reason that he never paid tax to the state. Ok, you say to yourself that this fella, by virtue of the fact that he will spend money on feeding and clothing his children, that he is at least paying VAT. Now, here is where I want you to take the time to think about what I am going to write next.

    It is not his money that he is spending. It is your money and my money.

    ps. This guy is not my friend, I merely know him, just to clarify.


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    #4617
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    darkhorse wrote: »
    alastair wrote: »


    Hey Phil/alastair,

    I feel I better explain this to you, cause no matter what anyone says, I think the need that you have to be right all the time is confusing you a wee bit. You see, if this guy, as I said, has never worked, it stands to reason that he never paid tax to the state. Ok, you say to yourself that this fella, by virtue of the fact that he will spend money on feeding and clothing his children, that he is at least paying VAT. Now, here is where I want you to take the time to think about what I am going to write next.

    It is not his money that he is spending. It is your money and my money.

    ps. This guy is not my friend, I merely know him, just to clarify.

    I think you'll find that it is indeed his money. Did you print up your own money or did you get it from someone else and subsequently passed it off as your own? Same story with this man. He's not just paying VAT btw - he'll be paying income tax on most of his benefit etc.

    So he's both paying taxes and contributing to some degree to paying for local services. He's undoubtedly a net recipient of state services, but then I reckon I am also, and the probability is you are too.


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    #4618
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    alastair wrote: »
    darkhorse wrote: »

    I think you'll find that it is indeed his money. Did you print up your own money or did you get it from someone else and subsequently passed it off as your own? Same story with this man. He's not just paying VAT btw - he'll be paying income tax on most of his benefit etc.

    So he's both paying taxes and contributing to some degree to paying for local services. He's undoubtedly a net recipient of state services, but then I reckon I am also, and the probability is you are too.

    Well alastair,

    All I can now say to you is that I cannot simplify it to you anymore than I have done. As I said before, no matter how anyone explains it to you, in you own mind, you are right about this matter and I know that I am 100% correct, so we have come to an impasse.
    With the position as is, I can only say that there would be no point in debating this matter with you any longer.:):)


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    #4619
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    darkhorse wrote: »
    alastair wrote: »

    in you own mind, you are right about this matter and I know that I am 100% correct

    ... 'in your own mind' no doubt.

    I'm curious what goes on 'in your own mind' about anyone who works in the public sector. That presumably is 'our money and my money' too. So - the logical thing there would be for all public sector workers to stop paying taxes, because they really aren't contributing at all. :p


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    #4620
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    alastair wrote: »
    That's rather too cryptic for me - have you paid your HHC or not?

    I dont think he has, hence the disappearing act as soon as he was called on it, despite the fact he claims to have paid all his taxes, how he walked into that one is a mystery.


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    #4621
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    alastair wrote: »
    The HHC and property tax are equally ringfenced for local authority spending only.

    Exactly.....that's what I said (whether you believe the government or not is a different matter). And hence that is why, for the reasons outlined in my earlier posts, the tenants (ie. the residents of that local authority) should pick up the tab


This discussion has been closed.
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