Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

alastair

steve9859 wrote: »

Exactly.....that's what I said (whether you believe the government or not is a different matter). And hence that is why, for the reasons outlined in my earlier posts, the tenants (ie. the residents of that local authority) should pick up the tab

It's ringfenced for ALL local authority spending - not necessarily THAT local authority spending.

kr7

steve9859 wrote: »

Exactly.....that's what I said (whether you believe the government or not is a different matter). And hence that is why, for the reasons outlined in my earlier posts, the tenants (ie. the residents of that local authority) should pick up the tab

There's some on this thread who don't believe that tenants should pay for their services.
Local authority tenants, people getting rent allowance, people on RAS schemes are being heavily subsidised by the taxpayer as it is.
It has to stop.
If they had to pay a bit more for their accommodation and services they might respect them a bit more.

Bishop_Donal

Interesting to see the compliance rate continuing to rise per Irish Times today. Nearly 1m registered and paid now. Additional 10k in the past week (also paying their penalties).

I genuinely think this is quite an astonishing hit rate for a self declaration tax in light of the speed at which it had to be introduced. We are rapidly heading towards 5/8th compliance which is not bad at all, and it will continue to increase.

It also emphasizes how unrepresentative of the overall population this particular forum appears to be!! The compliance rate here seems to be much lower.

Me thinks a number of 'Don't Register; Don't Pay advocates' are congregating together to try to draw comfort from each other;)

It has a way to go, but this is gradually getting more manageable for the LA's to track down the defaulters. They still have 11.75 years to achieve it!

darkhorse

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Interesting to see the compliance rate continuing to rise per Irish Times today. Nearly 1m registered and paid now. Additional 10k in the past week (also paying their penalties).

I genuinely think this is quite an astonishing hit rate for a self declaration tax in light of the speed at which it had to be introduced. We are rapidly heading towards 5/8th compliance which is not bad at all, and it will continue to increase.

It also emphasizes how unrepresentative of the overall population this particular forum appears to be!! The compliance rate here seems to be much lower.

Me thinks a number of 'Don't Register; Don't Pay advocates' are congregating together to try to draw comfort from each other;)

It has a way to go, but this is gradually getting more manageable for the LA's to track down the defaulters. They still have 11.75 years to achieve it!

Why 11.75 years? Curious.

kr7

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Interesting to see the compliance rate continuing to rise per Irish Times today. Nearly 1m registered and paid now. Additional 10k in the past week (also paying their penalties).

I genuinely think this is quite an astonishing hit rate for a self declaration tax in light of the speed at which it had to be introduced. We are rapidly heading towards 5/8th compliance which is not bad at all, and it will continue to increase.

It also emphasizes how unrepresentative of the overall population this particular forum appears to be!! The compliance rate here seems to be much lower.

Me thinks a number of 'Don't Register; Don't Pay advocates' are congregating together to try to draw comfort from each other;)

It has a way to go, but this is gradually getting more manageable for the LA's to track down the defaulters. They still have 11.75 years to achieve it!

I might consider paying it when the people I mentioned in my previous post and every household in the country is liable for it.
Not a chance before that, I refuse to be punished for owning/having a mortgage on the roof over my head while others get off with paying nothing and costing the state a fortune to house.

bgrizzley

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Interesting to see the compliance rate continuing to rise per Irish Times today. Nearly 1m registered and paid now. Additional 10k in the past week (also paying their penalties).

I genuinely think this is quite an astonishing hit rate for a self declaration tax in light of the speed at which it had to be introduced. We are rapidly heading towards 5/8th compliance which is not bad at all, and it will continue to increase.

It also emphasizes how unrepresentative of the overall population this particular forum appears to be!! The compliance rate here seems to be much lower.

Me thinks a number of 'Don't Register; Don't Pay advocates' are congregating together to try to draw comfort from each other;)

It has a way to go, but this is gradually getting more manageable for the LA's to track down the defaulters. They still have 11.75 years to achieve it!

also interesting to hear a Union guy on the Last word this evening asking the cawht to contact the unions to see how they could be more proactive in helping defeat the tax. ie asking council employees not to send letters out to their hard pressed fellow homeowners.



edit
may have been this guy, didnt catch his name and no podcast of it yet

http://insideireland.ie/2012/07/16/household-charge-campaingers-ask-local-workers-not-to-send-out-letters-77022/

bgrizzley

alastair wrote: »

It's ringfenced for ALL local authority spending - not necessarily THAT local authority spending.

is that serious Alastair?
you mean that people who paid the hhc for imaginary services could actually have their E100 spent on imaginary services in a different county?

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

also interesting to hear a Union guy on the Last word this evening asking the cawht to contact the unions to see how they could be more proactive in helping defeat the tax. ie asking council employees not to send letters out to their hard pressed fellow homeowners.



edit
may have been this guy, didnt catch his name and no podcast of it yet

http://insideireland.ie/2012/07/16/household-charge-campaingers-ask-local-workers-not-to-send-out-letters-77022/

Bit late for that I would think. I thought letters had already begun to be sent out and I haven't heard any local authority worker refusing to do their job.

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

Bit late for that I would think. I thought letters had already begun to be sent out and I haven't heard any local authority worker refusing to do their job.

maybe, but its nice to see the unions getting more involved, they seem to have more clout than the government.

dvpower

bgrizzley wrote: »

maybe, but its nice to see the unions getting more involved, they seem to have more clout than the government.

I'm not sure I agree its nice to see unions putting pressure on workers to put their necks on the line in what may well be an illegal action in pursuit of a political goal.

bgrizzley

dvpower wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree its nice to see unions putting pressure on workers to put their necks on the line in what may well be an illegal action in pursuit of a political goal.

cooper kinda put that to him and he made the point that unions were born from illegality. Made sense, love them or hate them, where would we be without them........

Bishop_Donal

darkhorse wrote: »

Why 11.75 years? Curious.

Debt and associated interest must (legally) be enforced within 12 years. Otherwise it becomes unenforceable.

Bishop_Donal

bgrizzley wrote: »

also interesting to hear a Union guy on the Last word this evening asking the cawht to contact the unions to see how they could be more proactive in helping defeat the tax. ie asking council employees not to send letters out to their hard pressed fellow homeowners.



edit
may have been this guy, didnt catch his name and no podcast of it yet

http://insideireland.ie/2012/07/16/household-charge-campaingers-ask-local-workers-not-to-send-out-letters-77022/

He'd want to get the skids on!!!

No great point in following up when the compliance rate hits up to 70 or 75% (which it will inevitably reach in the not too distant future).

It's really only a matter of how much penalties and interest the tax defaulter minority want to avoid now.

bgrizzley

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

He'd want to the the skids on!!!

No great point in following up when the compliance rate hits up to 70 or 75% (which it will inevitably reach in the not too distant future).

It's really only a matter of how much penalties and interest the tax defaulter minority want to avoid now.

i reckon by the time it hit anything close to that, year two would have come around and there could be a whole lotta defaulters then. i've already heard a couple of people wondering why the feck they paid it and thats out of the very few i know who did. the government have made themselves look very weak in all this. makes me very sad. i had high hopes for them after FF

Bishop_Donal

kr7 wrote: »

I might consider paying it when the people I mentioned in my previous post and every household in the country is liable for it.
Not a chance before that, I refuse to be punished for owning/having a mortgage on the roof over my head while others get off with paying nothing and costing the state a fortune to house.

I'm sure that very many of the compliant majority of property owners have the exact same negative feelings towards you & those adopting your stance!!

Personally I would like to see the free market determine everything (which is really just an extension of your logic), but I recognize that some elements of society and certain services warrant support.

That said, I certainly deplore that deliberate tax defaulters can use health and education systems and the general infrastructure funded by the Irish taxpayer (but that's hardly a basis to justify fraudulently underpaying my income or capital gains tax?).

kr7

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

He'd want to the the skids on!!!

No great point in following up when the compliance rate hits up to 70 or 75% (which it will inevitably reach in the not too distant future).

It's really only a matter of how much penalties and interest the tax defaulter minority want to avoid now.

When they can't get the last 30% or 40% to pay and the economy improves there'll be amnesty to encourage people to register, either that or on the run up to the next election it'll be dropped altogether.

As I've said, there'll have to be changes to who's liable for it before I pay.

Bishop_Donal

bgrizzley wrote: »

i reckon by the time it hit anything close to that, year two would have come around and there could be a whole lotta defaulters then. i've already heard a couple of people wondering why the feck they paid it and thats out of the very few i know who did. the government have made themselves look very weak in all this. makes me very sad. i had high hopes for them after FF

Then again, if you look right back through this discussion thread, you'll see that the Don't Register; Don't Pay group have consistently underestimated the compliance rate with this tax.

There will be a few defaulters who will be made an example of. Then the current 60% compliance rate will jump substantially again. It's called catching the low hanging fruit!!!

kr7

bgrizzley wrote: »

maybe, but its nice to see the unions getting more involved, they seem to have more clout than the government.

The unions hold this government to ransom, just look at the shambles/lie that is the CPA.

kr7

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Then again, if you look right back through this discussion thread, you'll see that the Don't Register; Don't Pay group have consistently underestimated the compliance rate with this tax.

There will be a few defaulters who will be made an example of. Then the current 60% compliance rate will jump substantially again. It's called catching the low hanging fruit!!!

And FG/Lab are good at that.
Although the low hanging fruit has all been harvested, now the hard work begins.

I kinda suspect the posters who throw around inflammatory phrases like tax defaulters etc on this thread may not be quite so squeaky clean as they like to portray.

Bishop_Donal

kr7 wrote: »

And FG/Lab are good at that.
Although the low hanging fruit has all been harvested, now the hard work begins.

Ah I wouldn't agree with you there.

There are still plenty of weak hands to be flushed out. All tough and brave, and not paying it on this principle or that principle. But when they realise that they are going to actually pay their penalties and interest they'll quietly comply.

kr7

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Ah I wouldn't agree with you there.

There are still plenty of weak hands to be flushed out. All tough and brave, and not paying it on this principle or that principle. But when they realise that they are going to actually pay their penalties and interest they'll quietly comply.

To be fair, I was referring to the cuts that are going to have to be made in the PS/CS,the totally unsustainable pay and pensions in there and then the tax breaks/loopholes that the really rich avail of in Ireland.

Bishop_Donal

kr7 wrote: »

I kinda suspect the posters who throw around inflammatory phrases like tax defaulters etc on this thread may not be quite so squeaky clean as they like to portray.

1.) Tax defaulters are Tax defaulters. There is nothing inflammatory about that. If your confused, contact your Accountant / Professional Advisor.

2.) You might be so good as to substantiate the second part of your comment? Sounds pretty much like utter nonsense to me, buts let hear what great insight you have to add.

Am Chile

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Interesting to see the compliance rate continuing to rise per Irish Times today. Nearly 1m registered and paid now. Additional 10k in the past week (also paying their penalties).

I genuinely think this is quite an astonishing hit rate for a self declaration tax in light of the speed at which it had to be introduced. We are rapidly heading towards 5/8th compliance which is not bad at all, and it will continue to increase.

It also emphasizes how unrepresentative of the overall population this particular forum appears to be!! The compliance rate here seems to be much lower.

Me thinks a number of 'Don't Register; Don't Pay advocates' are congregating together to try to draw comfort from each other;)

It has a way to go, but this is gradually getting more manageable for the LA's to track down the defaulters. They still have 11.75 years to achieve it!

In a report a few weeks ago they stated they were going after those with second properties first- its understandable they might register if they get a letter/after all they will just add it to the rent to their tenants-theres still 600.000 plus to get to register and pay-its Interesting its the middle of July and they still haven't given details of the real property tax how much its gonna be come the next budget-although you yourself said in a previous post people should expect it to be €700- all we need is confirmation of that-I have said before the household tax is only a walk in park-as soon as we hear details of the value based property tax we will see the real compliance rate then.

kr7

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

1.) Tax defaulters are Tax defaulters. There is nothing inflammatory about that. If your confused, contact your Accountant / Professional Advisor.

2.) You might be so good as to substantiate the second part of your comment? Sounds pretty much like utter nonsense to me, buts let hear what great insight you have to add.

1. The household charge is classified as a charge, not a tax, so it's yourself who should see your accountant/professional advisor if your that confused.

2. In this country we have a PS/CS who,despite being 4 years into a recession, are still getting pay rises.

3. We have the muppets who destroyed the country on index linked pensions of up to €150,000 per year.

4. We have a welfare bill of circa €20 billion per year.

There's a lot of other ways to save/raise money here other than screwing the hard pressed homeowner.

Bishop_Donal

Am Chile wrote: »

In a report a few weeks ago they stated they were going after those with second properties first- its understandable they might register if they get a letter/after all they will just add it to the rent to their tenants-theres still 600.000 plus to get to register and pay-its Interesting its the middle of July and they still haven't given details of the real property tax how much its gonna be come the next budget-although you yourself said in a previous post people should expect it to be €700- all we need is confirmation of that-I have said before the household tax is only a walk in park-as soon as we hear details of the value based property tax we will see the real compliance rate then.

Agree that it will be more difficult for people to meet that liability. A lot will be influenced by the mechanism chosen to collect. If it's at source, compliance will be high.

Bishop_Donal

kr7 wrote: »

1. The household charge is classified as a charge, not a tax, so it's yourself who should see your accountant/professional advisor if your that confused.

2. In this country we have a PS/CS who,despite being 4 years into a recession, are still getting pay rises.

3. We have the muppets who destroyed the country on index linked pensions of up to €150,000 per year.

4. We have a welfare bill of circa €20 billion per year.

There's a lot of other ways to save/raise money here other than screwing the hard pressed homeowner.

I don't have need to talk to my professional advisor.

I pay all my taxes and charges as they fall due. As you wud put it 'I am squeaky clean'.:D

Watery differentiations don't matter in my world. It all goes into the one pot.

Am Chile

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Agree that it will be more difficult for people to meet that liability. A lot will be influenced by the mechanism chosen to collect. If it's at source, compliance will be high.

If its at source-its goes to show and prove they know there will be a higher non compliance rate with the real value based property tax-although we have heard mixed messages and tds contradict each other on money being taken at source- it it does happen to be taken at source- we can expect unions to come under more pressure from its ordinary members and the possibility of Industrial action.

kr7

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I don't have need to talk to my professional advisor.

I pay all my taxes and charges as they fall due. As you wud put it 'I am squeaky clean'.:D

Watery differentiations don't matter in my world. It all goes into the one pot.

Fair play to you so.

At least you admit that it all goes into the one pot, now why can't the powers that be do that. Call a spade a spade so to speak.

Why don't they just say that because a person owns and pays for their property and doesn't cost the state to house them, they're to be penalised?

Would you agree that my points 2,3 and 4 need to be addressed?

Bishop_Donal

Am Chile wrote: »

If its at source-its goes to show and prove they know there will be a higher non compliance rate with the real value based property tax-although we have heard mixed messages and tds contradict each other on money being taken at source- it it does happen to be taken at source- we can expect unions to come under more pressure from its ordinary members and the possibility of Industrial action.

I feel unnerved when I start agreeing with you, but you are correct.

You have been around here from the start on this one and I'm pretty sure we discussed this aspect months ago. I did argue early on that if it was my call I would just levy it as an increased PSO on the ESB bill (which would have been 6 x eur17 this year). Also ensures user pays.

A bit harder to slip 120 onto the average ESB bill (but then again Phil might stick some of it on the Water Bill!!). Before this degenerates into accusations of Blueshirts and me being a member of FG etc (and of course you being a bad Socialist), I'll ask him the next night I'm out drinking with him:D

Chips Lovell

Are you penalised for earning more by paying the top rate of tax?