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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #4712
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    But how the Govt can class something that is now in negative equity, an asset (Ie I owe more on the house than the house is worth) is mind boggling.

    I owe more than my annual salary - I'm expected to service my debts out of my annual salary and yet they still tax my salary.

    The bastards.:mad:


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    #4713
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    Fairness is subjective and the real Property Tax will be somewhat progressive as it will be based on property value.

    I've never heard anyone call for a means tested income tax system.

    The real property tax introduction is when the real trouble will arise.

    How many of the pensioners, low earners etc that were scared into paying this years hundred euro sign up and be shafted fee will stand up next year and say they will refuse/cant afford ro pay the reported/suggested 700 next year?

    JNext year is when the real fun will begin.......


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    #4714
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    There's nothing unusual about assets declining in value still attracting a tax.

    My car is worth less than it is when I bought it, but I still have to pay tax on it.

    Either way, it's something of value that can ultimately be sold or passed on to someone else.

    I've seen that argument here a few times and I've got to say it's the most bull****e argument for this tax/charge (thanks dv) I've ever heard.

    When people buy/bought a car they knew that they would have to pay a yearly tax on it.

    When people bought a home for their family there was no talk of any yearly tax on it, plus the amount paid in stamp duty/V.A.T etc on the purchase was extortionate.

    It was this kind of dependance on property taxes that have left the country on it's knees.


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    #4715
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    alastair wrote: »
    IT's not mind-boggling at all - your house has value - you stated as much yourself - are you being taxed on a notional value of 340K? No you are not. As regards not crying about being ripped off - what exactly does your negative equity situation have to do with the reality of you owning a taxable asset?

    My house has a negative value to me and the mortgage provider.

    Hows that an 'asset'?


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    #4716
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    kr7 wrote: »
    It was this kind of dependance on property taxes that have left the country on it's knees.
    Dependence on property based transaction taxes yes. That's the beauty of the new property tax.


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    #4717
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Next year is when the real fun will begin.......

    Maybe, maybe not - but the whole camapaign against the household charge has been caught out ctrying wolf a few times already. I'm 100% confident that we're going to return to property taxation - same as the rest of the modern world - whatever opponents believe.


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    #4718
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    kr7 wrote: »
    I've seen that argument here a few times and I've got to say it's the most bull****e argument for this tax/charge (thanks dv) I've ever heard.

    When people buy/bought a car they knew that they would have to pay a yearly tax on it.

    When people bought a home for their family there was no talk of any yearly tax on it, plus the amount paid in stamp duty/V.A.T etc on the purchase was extortionate.

    It was this kind of dependance on property taxes that have left the country on it's knees.

    Also, no one factored in the extra cost of paying a recurring tax.

    700€ to some may be the equivalent of an extra months mortgage payment (although I wish that was mine)


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    #4719
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    dvpower wrote: »
    Dependence on property based transaction taxes yes. That's the beauty of the new property tax.

    When they hand me back my stamp duty, I'll pat the property charge/tax then.
    I'll even back date it to when I bought.


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    #4720
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    My house has a negative value to me and the mortgage provider.
    I'll give you €100 for it.

    Any other bids?


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    #4721
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Ghandee wrote: »
    My house has a negative value to me and the mortgage provider.

    Hows that an 'asset'?

    Because it has a market value - you just paid more than that.


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    #4722
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'll give you €100 for it.

    Any other bids?

    Will you give him €100 and pay off his mortgage?


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    #4723
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'll give you €100 for it.

    Any other bids?

    You're about as funny as an ingrown toenail.


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    #4724
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    When they hand me back my stamp duty, I'll pat the property charge/tax then.
    I'll even back date it to when I bought.

    I think you'll find that stamp duty has nothing to do with property taxes. Do you refuse to pay your motor tax because you paid VAT or VRT on your car?


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    #4725
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    kr7 wrote: »
    When they hand me back my stamp duty, I'll pat the property charge/tax then.
    Sorry. That's already been spent.
    Are you beginning to see that attraction to the state of an ongoing property tax to fund ongoing services?


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    #4726
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    Once again there's a poster with the car tax argument.
    A poster who finds it hard to read my other posts.

    Is trollish posting a feature of the 'pro-tax' people?


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    #4727
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    Sorry. That's already been spent.
    Are you beginning to see that attraction to the state of an ongoing property tax to fund ongoing services?

    Possibly, but only when I stop getting 'ongoing' bills from Oxygen for my bins, GP's bills, Toll charges on the roads, and a list of other services I already pay for.


    I'm not expecting a free lunch, but I'm not paying twice for the same thing.


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    #4728
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    Once again there's a poster with the car tax argument.
    A poster who finds it hard to read my other posts.

    Is trollish posting a feature of the 'pro-tax' people?

    "Stop making that relevant point, because I don't like it"?


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    #4729
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Possibly, but only when I stop getting 'ongoing' bills from Oxygen for my bins, GP's bills, Toll charges on the roads, and a list of other services I already pay for.


    I'm not expecting a free lunch, but I'm not paying twice for the same thing.

    Ghandee, help me out here.
    Is that alastair fellow for real?


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    #4730
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Possibly, but only when I stop getting 'ongoing' bills from Oxygen for my bins, GP's bills, Toll charges on the roads, and a list of other services I already pay for.


    I'm not expecting a free lunch, but I'm not paying twice for the same thing.

    I'm sure you know that you're not paying twice for the same thing - Local Authorities have nothing to do with primary roads, or tolls, and if a Local Authority dropped refuse collection services - they're not charging you for that service either.


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    #4731
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Possibly, but only when I stop getting 'ongoing' bills from Oxygen for my bins, GP's bills, Toll charges on the roads, and a list of other services I already pay for.

    I'm not expecting a free lunch, but I'm not paying twice for the same thing.
    How are you paying twice?

    It was, in part, property based transaction taxes like stamp duty that funded local services. That tax base has collapsed.


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    #4732
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    kr7 wrote: »
    I've seen that argument here a few times and I've got to say it's the most bull****e argument for this tax/charge (thanks dv) I've ever heard.

    When people buy/bought a car they knew that they would have to pay a yearly tax on it.

    When people bought a home for their family there was no talk of any yearly tax on it, plus the amount paid in stamp duty/V.A.T etc on the purchase was extortionate.

    It was this kind of dependance on property taxes that have left the country on it's knees.

    Taxes are never set in stone. We have a budget every year and until it is announced, we've no idea of what our tax liability is going to be. So every purchasing decision is done in that light.

    Given the fact that pretty much every other European state has a property tax and that this has been flagged as far back as 2008 when the Commission on Taxation was set up, I can't say it came as a complete surprise to me that I'd have to pay a tax on my house.


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    #4733
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    dvpower wrote: »
    How are you paying twice?

    It was, in part, property based transaction taxes like stamp duty that funded local services. That tax based has collapsed.

    Say, in 5 or 10 years time, when hopefully we get out of bertie's mess and the exchequer is flush with money, do you think the proposed property tax will be reduced?

    Or will it forever be home owners who have to subsidise people who live in rented houses?


  • Options
    #4734
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dvpower wrote: »
    How are you paying twice?

    It was, in part, property based transaction taxes like stamp duty that funded local services. That tax base has collapsed.

    OK, well put it this way.

    Name me one service I will receive by paying a tax to own a house?


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    #4735
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Ghandee wrote: »
    OK, well put it this way.

    Name me one service I will receive by paying a tax to own a house?

    You'll continue to receive the regular range of local authority services. Have you a favourite you'd like me to namecheck?


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    #4736
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    Another one for dv, do you think we'd even be having this discussion if we weren't in a bailout program?


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    #4737
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ghandee wrote: »
    OK, well put it this way.

    Name me one service I will receive by paying a tax to own a house?
    The planning service.


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    #4738
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    Say, in 5 or 10 years time, when hopefully we get out of bertie's mess and the exchequer is flush with money, do you think the proposed property tax will be reduced?

    Or will it forever be home owners who have to subsidise people who live in rented houses?

    We won't be out of this fix in ten year's time.


  • Options
    #4739
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    kr7 wrote: »
    Another one for dv, do you think we'd even be having this discussion if we weren't in a bailout program?
    Maybe not so soon, but eventually we would have gotten around to introducing a property tax again.


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    #4740
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Taxes are never set in stone. We have a budget every year and until it is announced, we've no idea of what our tax liability is going to be. So every purchasing decision is done in that light.

    Ah, thats grand then when you put it like that.
    So if Income tax was set at 65% next year you'd just cut your cloth to suit would you? Pay up and struggle on?

    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Given the fact that pretty much every other European state has a property tax and that this has been flagged as far back as 2008 when the Commission on Taxation was set up,.

    We pay the highest rate of tax on a box of 20 smokes in the whole of the EU, should that be reduced to be more in line with the rest? (was in Portugal a few weeks ago, 4.10 for 20 marlboro, v 9.10 here) Or does the taxes of other European countries only come into it when its something you agree with?

    This is a case of 'everybody else is doing it'.....
    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »


    I can't say it came as a complete surprise to me that I'd have to pay a tax on my house.

    Do you have inside knowledge or something?


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    #4741
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    kr7 wrote: »
    Ghandee, help me out here.
    Is that alastair fellow for real?

    He's certainly not in negative equity I'd imagine.


This discussion has been closed.
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