Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

alastair

Fupping Grasshole wrote: »

Have any cases been brought before a court?

The law holds regardless of whether someone has been summonsed for breaking it. We're still at the late payment penalty stage with the HCC. Nothing in prospect for the courts for a time yet.

Fupping Grasshole

Valetta wrote: »

Not relevant.

How so?

Chips Lovell

The household charge goes into the Local Government Fund, which is then distributed among the local authorities.

Take a look at Dublin City Council's 2012 budget for example. Less than 10 per cent of its budget came from the Local Government Fund.

kr7

dvpower wrote: »

So lets shift the taxation burden onto areas that don't impact job creation as much as Income Tax does.

I was just listening to Matt Cooper there, the HSE pay out €6.2 million every year for Viagra for medical card holders.

Let's stop this waste of public money before we tax people to live in their own homes.

Ghandee

alastair wrote: »

Well - you should get back in there.

No - there's no local authority services available to you that aren't available to people living in local authority housing. You do recognise that they pay taxes too, yep?

I'm not belittling them in anyway, but its hardly a comparable argument?
I'd assume they pay taxes (nearly everyone does) just seems ridiculous some are liable for this tax/charge (like I will) while people that avail of the same services, but live in la housing are not liable.

How come we're both liable for a TV license?

Would you be annoyed if they suddenly became exempt from that annual charge
too, out would that sit ok with you?

alastair

Ghandee wrote: »

I'm not belittling them in anyway, but its hardly a comparable argument?
I'd assume they pay taxes (nearly everyone does) just seems ridiculous some are liable for this tax/charge (like I will) while people that avail of the same services, but live in la housing are not liable.

How come we're both liable for a TV license?

Would you be annoyed if they suddenly became exempt from that annual charge
too, out would that sit ok with you?

You're liable for a tv licence because you have a TV. If you don't, you're not.

You're liable for a property tax if you have property. If you don't, you're not.

It's pretty consistent. You seem hung up on the fact that the property tax is earmarked for local authority service funding, but that's pretty far from saying those who aren't liable to a property tax aren't also contributing to LA funding.

Refer back to the motor tax comparison. Have you had a problem with paying this, given that many don't have to, and yet we all benefit from whatever services motor taxation supports?

Chips Lovell

The household charge only accounts for a fraction of local authority budgets. The rest come from other sources, including other forms of taxation.

You as a property owner are being asked to pay a larger share, just in the same way as someone on the top rate of tax is being asked to pay a larger share.

Fupping Grasshole

alastair wrote: »

You're liable for a tv licence because you have a TV. If you don't, you're not.

You're liable for a property tax if you have property. If you don't, you're not.

But they haven't introduced a property tax yet, what exactly are you paying?

alastair

Fupping Grasshole wrote: »

But they haven't introduced a property tax yet, what exactly are you paying?

The EU/IMF Programme of Financial Support for Ireland commits the Government to the introduction of a property tax for 2012.

That would be the bad boy you and I are liable for.

Fupping Grasshole

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

You as a property owner are being asked to pay a larger share, just in the same way as someone on the top rate of tax is being asked to pay a larger share.

That implies wealth being associated with property ownership which isn't the case at all.

Fupping Grasshole

alastair wrote: »

That would be the bad boy you and I are liable for.

Yesh, introduction etc.....I'm still waiting for them to even tell me how they'll equate the tax...

Chips Lovell

Fupping Grasshole wrote: »

But they haven't introduced a property tax yet, what exactly are you paying?

Fine. You're liable for a household charge. Happy now?

Fupping Grasshole wrote: »

That implies wealth being associated with property ownership which isn't the case at all.

Who's better off? The man with one house or the man with no house?

alastair

Fupping Grasshole wrote: »

Yesh, introduction etc.....I'm still waiting for them to even tell me how they'll equate the tax...

Everything you need to know:

https://www.householdcharge.ie/default.aspx

dvpower

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

But is there any real practical difference between the two, other than the name?

There isn't really - I don't understand why people forever bring it up.
They don't want to be labelled a tax evader I guess.

kr7

I wonder if people on a shared ownership scheme, where they are buying one half of their property and renting the other half from the LA are liable for this charge/tax?

Oh look, they're not liable.


If a property was purchased under the Shared Ownership Scheme, is it liable to pay the Household Charge?

Under the Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 any property that was in Shared Ownership with a Local Authority on 1st January IS NOT LIABLE for the Household Charge. The Local Authority still retains an ownership stake in the property and all properties owned by Government bodies, including local authorities, are exempt.

So we're supposed to be subsidising people who have a beneficial interest in their properties too.

Fupping Grasshole

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Fine. You're liable for a household charge. Happy now?

Delira now, still not paying though :pac:

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Who's better off? The man with one house or the man with no house?

I don't follow. My point being house ownership doesn't equate to wealth.

dvpower

kr7 wrote: »

So we're supposed to be subsidising people who have a beneficial interest in their properties too.

There are bound to be a whole lot of perceived anomalies in what is a short term interim measure. They needed to get something up and running to satisfy the bailout conditions - I'd be more interested in the shape of the fully fledged property tax.

Fupping Grasshole

alastair wrote: »

Everything you need to know:

https://www.householdcharge.ie/default.aspx

I see f'all info there tbh. Just a big button saying pay now! pay now! :pac:

dvpower

Fupping Grasshole wrote: »

I don't follow. My point being house ownership doesn't equate to wealth.

Nor does income, but we still use that as a measure.
Its an indicator of wealth.

alastair

dvpower wrote: »

There are bound to be a whole lot of perceived anomalies in what is a short term interim measure. They needed to get something up and running to satisfy the bailout conditions - I'd be more interested in the shape of the fully fledged property tax.

Exactly. Another anomaly with the current arrangement is that only an individual name can pay the tax - even if the property is jointly owned (which would be the common arrangement - and certainly the case in this household).

kr7

dvpower wrote: »

Nor does income, but we still use that as a measure.
Its an indicator of wealth.

I see what you mean there.

Someone on a now reduced wage of €35k or so but with a large mortgage might not be considered wealthy whereas someone in a LA provided & paid for house, on the dole getting maximum benefits would be described as wealthy.

Only the former is obliged to pay for his/her local services though.

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

whereas someone in a LA provided & paid for house, on the dole getting maximum benefits would be described as wealthy.

of course they would.

kr7 wrote: »

Only the former is obliged to pay for his/her local services though.

Except for the taxes the latter do pay for same services, that is.

dvpower

kr7 wrote: »

I see what you mean there.

Someone on a now reduced wage of €35k or so but with a large mortgage might not be considered wealthy whereas someone in a LA provided & paid for house, on the dole getting maximum benefits would be described as wealthy.

Only the former is obliged to pay for his/her local services though.

Someone on a wage of €35k or so but with a large mortgage and a pile of kids in creche might not be considered wealthy whereas someone on the same salary with no dependents and the mortgage already paid off might be described as wealthy(er).

They both pay the same income tax though.

Chips Lovell

If living in a council house and drawing the dole is so lucrative, I'm surprised more of us aren't doing it.

kr7

dvpower wrote: »

Someone on a wage of €35k or so but with a large mortgage and a pile of kids in creche might not be considered wealthy whereas someone on the same salary with no dependents and the mortgage already paid off might be described as wealthy(er).

They both pay the same income tax though.

And someone in a LA property with a pile of kids drawing maximum dole payments is wealthier still, pays no income tax, but is exempt from paying this charge/tax.

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

And someone in a LA property with a pile of kids drawing maximum dole payments is wealthier still, pays no income tax, but is exempt from paying this charge/tax.

They pay income tax.

They don't own a property and therefore aren't liable to pay a property tax.

dvpower

kr7 wrote: »

And someone in a LA property with a pile of kids drawing maximum dole payments is wealthier still, pays no income tax, but is exempt from paying this charge/tax.

So you think they should be made to pay income tax?

Edit: Alistair is correct - unemployment benefits are taxable.

Irish social welfare payments
Jobseeker's Benefit is generally taxable, but the first €13 each week is exempt from tax. Jobseeker's Benefit payable to short-time workers is not taxable.

Increases for Qualified Children payable with Jobseeker's Benefit, Illness Benefit and the Occupational Injuries Scheme (Injury Benefit, Disablement Pension and Incapacity Supplement) are not taxable.

Other than the cases above, if your social welfare payment is taxable, any increase in your payment for your adult dependant and child dependants is also taxable.

alastair

dvpower wrote: »

So you think they should be made to pay income tax?

They do.

kr7

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

If living in a council house and drawing the dole is so lucrative, I'm surprised more of us aren't doing it.

Personally, I try not to be a burden on the state.

But according to some on this thread, because I refuse to pay this immoral charge on my family home, I'm classed as a tax defaulter and a freeloader.

Maybe your right, I should sell my family home, screw the banks, declare myself bankrupt and apply for a council house and the dole.

Quid's in!

alastair

kr7 wrote: »

But according to some on this thread, because I refuse to pay this immoral charge on my family home, I'm classed as a tax defaulter and a freeloader.

You're classed as a tax evader, because you're evading paying your taxes. It's not a subjective issue.