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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #5522
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    Was always USC there? Have income taxes changed since you first started working? Are they illegal too?

    They come from my wages and are supposedly for services. I get nothing for a Home Tax.
    We have been here before several times and are only going round in circles. There is no way I will agree to a Home Tax. It is just not right. Then when you think that it's only aimed at a certain percentage of people then it only compounds the issues I have with it.


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    #5523
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Because it was not there when I bought my home and it was not factored into the future costs.
    If you bought a pair of shoes and took them home and began wearing them before then being approached and told you now have to pay a tax on them, would you pay it?
    That's a reason that you might feel it unfair, but why do you think it's illegal?


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    #5524
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    Your telly, car, income etc are all private too. Your home was equally private when you paid stamp duty on it's purchase transaction. You won't be jailed, but you will end up paying penalties - which seems pretty much like a nose/face situation to me.

    You're simply wrong when you say your local authority provides no services to you. But we both know that - it's just bluster as a veneer for your unwillingness to pay another tax.

    Your motor tax has as much to do with roads as VAT, or (whisper it) your property tax / HHC does.

    Maybe you would care to provide a list of the services i receive as they are a mystery to me.
    I will examine them when i return from my game of golf.


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    #5525
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Maybe you would care to provide a list of the services i receive as they are a mystery to me.
    I will examine them when i return from my game of golf.
    Public golf courses.

    http://www.dublincity.ie/RecreationandCulture/DublinCityParks/VisitaPark/Pages/SillogeGolfCourse.aspx


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    #5526
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    dvpower wrote: »
    Public golf courses.

    http://www.dublincity.ie/RecreationandCulture/DublinCityParks/VisitaPark/Pages/SillogeGolfCourse.aspx
    Fees

    Three standard green fee rates apply as follows:

    Saturdays, Sundays and bank holidays €25.00
    1st March to 31st October
    Saturdays, Sundays and bank holidays €21.10
    1st November to 28th February
    Monday to Friday all year €19.20

    He pays fees then.


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    #5527
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    tayto lover wrote: »
    They come from my wages and are supposedly for services. I get nothing for a Home Tax.
    We have been here before several times and are only going round in circles. There is no way I will agree to a Home Tax. It is just not right. Then when you think that it's only aimed at a certain percentage of people then it only compounds the issues I have with it.

    That would be my main problem with it too, tayto.

    People who have cost the state nothing to house them, indeed paid the state maybe €30-€40k in stamp duty not so long ago plus the VAT element of the purchase price, are being penalised now while the other section of society (private renters,LA tenants,RAS scheme & rent allowance recipient's) are subsidised once again.

    People cry about a fair and just society but when it comes to this they're fairly quiet.

    It actually could be termed as discrimination.

    I won't be paying it, at least until the above mentioned are liable.

    A bit like the UK, so often referenced here.

    I would also require that we get the same level of service provided in the UK.

    Free doctors visit, refuse collection, schoolbooks/school transport and any number of other services provided for people who pay council tax.


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    #5528
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    squod wrote: »
    He pays fees then.
    Yes there are fees. You want golf to be completely free at the point of usage?

    The LA provides golf courses at an affordable rate.


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    #5529
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    They come from my wages and are supposedly for services. I get nothing for a Home Tax.

    You get local authority services - that's what this tax is earmarked for.


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    #5530
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Those who whinge about subsidising others through their taxes would do well to remember that they are themselves most likely subsidised by other's taxes. Look at the breakdown of where taxes come from in this country and who's subsidising whom as a consequence.

    60% of household taxation is paid by the top 30% income households in this state, Which means that - unless you're in the top 30 percentile of household earnings - you're being subsidised to some degree by others yourself.

    And that's how it should be.


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    #5531
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    It's a tax on property owners. There are very few property owners exempt. You pay a tax on YOUR car
    Cars deteriorate roads. Roads need maintenance. Whether the tax motorists pay goes directly to the roads or not, motorists do pay their way for road maintenance. The state has to pay for it. Motorists pay for using public roads.

    You know this, but pretend its not the case, just for your arguement.

    If I damage a persons car, and pay them 100 euro, and they spend it in the pub, I still payed for the damage.
    YOUR salary
    Tax on earnings. Equivalent to taxing a person for buying their own home? The reality is, the HHC is a tax on income, but only for people who went to the bother of funding their own home.
    YOUR telly
    Its not really for the telly though, is it. Get a projector, and sky box. Where is the telly now?


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    #5532
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Those who whinge about subsidising others through their taxes would do well to remember that they are themselves most likely subsidised by other's taxes..

    You can subsidise the people who don`t pay the charge so.


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    #5533
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Cars deteriorate roads. Roads need maintenance. Whether the tax motorists pay goes directly to the roads or not, motorists do pay their way for road maintenance. The state has to pay for it. Motorists pay for using public roads.

    You know this, but pretend its not the case, just for your arguement.

    If I damage a persons car, and pay them 100 euro, and they spend it in the pub, I still payed for the damage.

    Motor tax doesn't go to upkeep of roads though - no more than the VAT on your choc ice does. If you want a tax for roads upkeep - your best best is the HHC or commercial rates - which you at least know is going to a local authority. And the structure of motor tax implies nothing about wear and tear of roads - it's cheaper for one of the heaviest cars you can get - electrical cars, given that it's more C02-based than anything.

    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Tax on earnings. Equivalent to taxing a person for buying their own home? The reality is, the HHC is a tax on income, but only for people who went to the bother of funding their own home.
    Earnings are just as private as your home, surely? - and yes - it's a tax purely on home owners - see motor tax and car owners.
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Its not really for the telly though, is it. Get a projector, and sky box. Where is the telly now?

    Fair enough - tax on your TV tuner - equally privately owned and paid for.


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    #5534
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    You can subsidise the people who don`t pay the charge so.

    As will all other home owners with property taxation, and as car owners currently have done for years. Same story with businesses liable to commercial rates. Nothing new in selective taxation.


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    #5535
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    Motor tax doesn't go to upkeep of roads though - no more than the VAT on your choc ice does. If you want a tax for roads upkeep - your best best is the HHC or commercial rates - which you at least know is going to a local authority. And the structure of motor tax implies nothing about wear and tear of roads - it's cheaper for one of the heaviest cars you can get - electrical cars, given that it's more C02-based than anything.
    Does not matter where it goes. If everyone stopped driving tomorrow, where would the shortfall be made up? No road maintenance would be required, and so this would make it up.

    This rubbish about where the motor tax payments goes is irrelevant. Roads need upkeep. The electric car thing again is rubbish. That is to encourage its developement. If everyone tomorrow used electric cars, you think the tax would stay low on them because of low emissions?

    And you think electric cars produce no co2 emissions? All it does is move the emissions to other locations.
    Earnings are just as private as your home, surely?
    The privacy aspect is from another poster
    - and yes - it's a tax purely on home owners -
    Yea, on their wealth you said. But you know well its not.
    see motor tax and car owners.
    Obsessed you are. Cars, roads, maintenance. say what you like about it going to local authorities. Cars damage roads. Roads need fixing. Even with the confusion about where an actual paper 50 euro note goes (i gave a hint with the damaged car post above), that seems simple enough.

    Fair enough - tax on your TV tuner - equally privately owned and paid for.
    But its not a tax on a tv tuner either. It is named a tv licence simply to ensnare everyone. Tv`s these days are used for a lot more than watching tv, often never used for that purpose.

    A couple of years ago I said in a post that if enough people viewed RTE through means other than tuners, then it would become something different than a tv licence. And now the broadcast charge is in the pipeline. It will be the exact same thing, just a different name, and again simply to get even people with no tv or tuner in the net. So the reality is, the tv licence had nothing to do with the tv. It is a type of household charge to fund RTE, whether you avail of the service or not.


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    #5536
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Anyway alastair, I have to go for a while. Take it handy:)


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    #5537
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Does not matter where it goes. If everyone stopped driving tomorrow, where would the shortfall be made up? No road maintenance would be required, and so this would make it up.

    This rubbish about where the motor tax payments goes is irrelevant. Roads need upkeep.

    Sure, but so does the health service - which is where more of that motor tax goes - your selectively focusing on the roads overhead to imply a connection that simply doesn't exist.
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    The electric car thing again is rubbish. That is to encourage its developement. If everyone tomorrow used electric cars, you think the tax would stay low on them because of low emissions?

    The point was to disabuse the notion that motor taxation and wear on roads were somehow related.

    robbie7730 wrote: »
    And you think electric cars produce no co2 emissions? All it does is move the emissions to other locations.

    Depends on the source of the electricity now, doesn't it?

    robbie7730 wrote: »
    The privacy aspect is from another poster

    Indeed - who's argument I was responding to.

    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Yea, on their wealth you said. But you know well its not.

    Do I? I thought I made the opinion quite clear on the subject. But to re-iterate for clarity - yep it's a wealth tax.

    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Obsessed you are. Cars, roads, maintenance. say what you like about it going to local authorities. Cars damage roads. Roads need fixing. Even with the confusion about where an actual paper 50 euro note goes (i gave a hint with the damaged car post above), that seems simple enough.

    Simple enough to you perhaps - but it's still a perfect example of how selective taxation is existent and not considered unfair.


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    But its not a tax on a tv tuner either. It is named a tv licence simply to ensnare everyone. Tv`s these days are used for a lot more than watching tv, often never used for that purpose.

    It's precisely a tax on tv tuners. It's the only element in all those devices that is liable for the license. You can have monitors coming out the wazoo and you don't have to get a license - because there's no tuner.
    robbie7730 wrote: »
    A couple of years ago I said in a post that if enough people viewed RTE through means other than tuners, then it would become something different than a tv licence. And now the broadcast charge is in the pipeline. It will be the exact same thing, just a different name, and again simply to get even people with no tv or tuner in the net. So the reality is, the tv licence had nothing to do with the tv. It is a type of household charge to fund RTE, whether you avail of the service or not.

    No argument there - but that's not what we have at the moment - what we have is a license for the use of TV tuners. The license in the UK is for the purposes of funding (primarily) the BBC, but the license is still levied on TV tuners.

    talk later.


  • Options
    #5538
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    dvpower wrote: »
    Yes there are fees. You want golf to be completely free at the point of usage?

    The LA provides golf courses at an affordable rate.

    We really need golf? Shure turn them courses into tented ghettos. We only make €170bn a year. Jaysus at this rate we'll have to burn the poor for firewood......:rolleyes:


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    #5539
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    dvpower wrote: »
    Yes there are fees. You want golf to be completely free at the point of usage?

    The LA provides golf courses at an affordable rate.

    Not to me they don't. No courses like that near me. I pay membership of my own club.


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    #5540
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Not to me they don't. No courses like that near me. I pay membership of my own club.
    Public golf courses are open to everyone - just another of the many services local authorities provide, whether you choose to avail of them or not.


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    #5541
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by robbie7730 View Post
    Obsessed you are. Cars, roads, maintenance. say what you like about it going to local authorities. Cars damage roads. Roads need fixing. Even with the confusion about where an actual paper 50 euro note goes (i gave a hint with the damaged car post above), that seems simple enough.

    Alastair
    Simple enough to you perhaps - but it's still a perfect example of how selective taxation is existent and not considered unfair.

    alastair, im not sure whether you are right or wrong but i can tell you that the perception of most people is that the tax on driving your car on the public road is for the maintenance of those roads.
    people rightly or wrongly consider they are getting a service for their money.
    this is not the case with the HHC, they are already paying privately for their services.

    i still just think its a groundrent on my house by a bunch of chancers and i wont be paying it:D


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    #5542
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    alastair, im not sure whether you are right or wrong but i can tell you that the perception of most people is that the tax on driving your car on the public road is for the maintenance of those roads.
    people rightly or wrongly consider they are getting a service for their money.
    this is not the case with the HHC, they are already paying privately for their services.

    i still just think its a groundrent on my house by a bunch of chancers and i wont be paying it:D

    You're getting a service for your property tax too - continued local authority service. You're already paying towards local authority services regardless - but, just as with motor tax - it's an additional revenue stream that's required to ensure there's enough to cover the overhead. We've a shortfall of tax revenue at the moment - despite cutting public expenditure and bumping up other taxes - the only question therefore is where to tax and where to cut.


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    #5543
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    alastair wrote: »
    You're getting a service for your property tax too - continued local authority service. You're already paying towards local authority services regardless - but, just as with motor tax - it's an additional revenue stream that's required to ensure there's enough to cover the overhead. We've a shortfall of tax revenue at the moment - despite cutting public expenditure and bumping up other taxes - the only question therefore is where to tax and where to cut.

    Thanks Alastair, i rest my case.......


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    #5544
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    Thanks Alastair, i rest my case.......

    The truth will always come out, the waters clear.

    We all pay through our taxes for the LA services, everyone, and I've always said that.
    This is just screwing home owners, who have cost the LA nothing to house, to pay for others.
    In the long run it will discourage people from buying a house and increase the numbers on the LA housing lists.

    The lunatics really have taken over the asylum.







    Awaits a rebuke from the gruesome twosome!


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    #5545
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    alastair wrote: »
    You get local authority services - that's what this tax is earmarked for.

    I am still waiting for the list of services i receive.


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    #5546
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    Thanks Alastair, i rest my case.......
    Don't tell us that you thought that the HHC was going to provide the total funding for local government?
    tayto lover wrote: »
    I am still waiting for the list of services i receive.
    Check out the website of your local council (the website itself is one of the many services).


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    #5547
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    dvpower wrote: »
    Don't tell us that you thought that the HHC was going to provide the total funding for local government?


    Check out the website of your local council (the website itself is one of the many services).

    lol, i dont think it'll provide anything (only more jobs for the boys).....


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    #5548
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    lol, i dont think it'll provide anything (only more jobs for the boys).....
    ... but jobs for local authority boys, right?


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    #5549
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I am still waiting for the list of services i receive.

    You'll get the list a lot faster than you'll get the services tayto....;)


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    #5550
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,761 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    dvpower wrote: »
    Public golf courses are open to everyone - just another of the many services local authorities provide, whether you choose to avail of them or not.

    They have a 25e charge to play them. So when you play you pay for that service there and then. Those courses are only in Dublin too and not much good to someone in Kerry or Donegal.
    You are scraping the barrel with that one.


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    #5551
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    You'll get the list a lot faster than you'll get the services tayto....;)
    Tayto should probably look up that list himself. He's the only one who can truly answer that question.


This discussion has been closed.
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