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Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

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    #5612
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    Izzy Skint wrote: »
    KR7, that is the point I have been trying to make to him, but he refuses to comment on the issue, it is the root of our problem...obviously he does not want this to happen....I wonder why ?

    Turkeys don't vote for christmas. Simple! It's the NIMBY syndrome.


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    #5613
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    alastair wrote: »
    You can't attain a sustainable economy on the back of your (frankly ridiculous) spending cuts. 40% cuts in public sector salaries is just nutjob ranting - and nothing to do with a solution.
    Moreover Izzy accepts that there is nobody in the Dail that wants these cuts.

    Apparently, next year were going to have general strikes against tax increases, with the people at the same time demanding massive cuts in spending.
    And who will be leading this revolution? Sinn Fein and the ULA! There's the makings of a farce in there somewhere.


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    #5614
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Izzy Skint wrote: »
    EXACTLY, we need the turkeys to vote for Christmas if we want to get out of the mess we are in, the chances of that happening in this country are very slim....you do want us to get out of this mess , don't you ?
    We did elect the current TDs - all of which disagree with your cuts by your own admission.

    Who is going to deliver your big cuts?


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    #5615
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    dvpower wrote: »
    We did elect the current TDs - all of which disagree with your cuts by your own admission.

    Who is going to deliver your big cuts?

    The troika.


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    #5616
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    alastair wrote: »
    Here's the thing - looper post formatting only speaks to the loopy presentation. Now - your 'substance' is problematic enough without having to endure the deranged visuals.

    In answer to your analogy above - nope - you've both a spending and income problem. This state supported it's spending on the back of a property bubble revenue boom - now that revenue stream has gone, and we have a taxation shortfall. You can't attain a sustainable economy on the back of your (frankly ridiculous) spending cuts. 40% cuts in public sector salaries is just nutjob ranting - and nothing to do with a solution.
    Al, I will post these quotes fron Dan O' Brien again....he has no vested interests in maintaining the current status quo, unlike you !

    "In the 2000-08 period, public spending growth in Ireland was the fourth highest among the 27 members of the EU. 2

    "the previous government not only continued to allow expenditure to match economic growth, it ramped up spending even more rapidly than the rate at which the credit- fuelled economy was expanding, whether measured by GDP or GNP"

    it is time to cut our spending, it should have been started at least 4 years ago !... until I can see evidence of serious cuts by the govt. I will not even consider paying any hhc / property tax.


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    #5617
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    If you did not pretend you would not have to pay up at the end of the day, does this mean you paid it when it was first due?

    If I didn't pay it - as I've stated - what do you think? :rolleyes:


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    #5618
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    kr7 wrote: »
    The troika.
    The reforms demanded by the troika are set out clearly in the MOU. They are at odds with what Dizzy is calling for.

    One if the measures that is demanded by the trioka is the property tax, so I'm glad to see you getting on board at last.


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    #5619
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Bulls*** !!! and not for the first time. I expected better from you tbh. Your posts are seriously in decline now.

    If you're going on the back of a member - or on open days - you're being subsidised - simple principle enough to follow.


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    #5620
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    dvpower wrote: »
    Moreover Izzy accepts that there is nobody in the Dail that wants these cuts.

    Apparently, next year were going to have general strikes against tax increases, with the people at the same time demanding massive cuts in spending.
    And who will be leading this revolution? Sinn Fein and the ULA! There's the makings of a farce in there somewhere.

    Twisting words again DV?...well done...I will say it AGAIN...
    I don't care if all , some or none of our overpaid TD's support cuts or no cuts...it is irrelevant....what matters is what the people think...we need serious cuts...
    have i mentioned strike action in any post ?...show me please...


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    #5621
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Izzy Skint wrote: »
    Twisting words again DV?...well done...I will say it AGAIN...
    I don't care if all , some or none of our overpaid TD's support cuts or no cuts...it is irrelevant....what matters is what the people think...we need serious cuts...
    have i mentioned strike action in any post ?...show me please...
    Who will implement your cuts?


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    #5622
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    dvpower wrote: »
    The reforms demanded by the troika are set out clearly in the MOU. They are at odds with what Izzy is calling for.

    One if the measures that is demanded by the trioka is the property tax, so I'm glad to see you getting on board at last.

    Problem is though that while they are really quick to bring in taxes and charges, they're not so quick to bring in the changes that have to happen in welfare rates and the cost of the public sector.

    While I wouldn't call for a 40% cut in these, I do think a 10% cut in welfare rates and in the PS/CS wage bill should be made immediately. Not 2 years down the line, I mean today.

    The people who provide our loans must be wondering what is going on here that this has not happened already.


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    #5623
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    I suppose it's what happens when the country elects a FG (look after the rich) and Labour (unions, blackmailers) government.

    The sooner we hand over complete control of our finances to the troika the better.

    We have proven time and time again since the formation of the state that we're not capable of governing ourselves.

    Boom and bust, boom and bust.


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    #5624
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Izzy Skint wrote: »
    Twisting words again DV?...well done...I will say it AGAIN...
    I don't care if all , some or none of our overpaid TD's support cuts or no cuts...it is irrelevant....what matters is what the people think...we need serious cuts...
    have i mentioned strike action in any post ?...show me please...

    Newsflash! The people don't agree with you.


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    #5625
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    A poster on your side in here does support that notion though.

    So what? That doesn't change my position.
    Ghandee wrote: »
    While we give 100,000 pensions away to folk who worked four years towards it.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/kenny-says-he-will-defer-e100k-pension-lump-sum-until-he-leaves-politics-87736-Feb2011/

    I don't agree with this, and it should be curtailed. But cutting that and other payments is not going to solve our budget deficit unfortunately.
    If the minister for health spent more time running his department, than sorting out his personal financial affairs, keeping his name out of stubbs gazette, and using the states jet as a taxi, improvements could be made here also.

    The problems in the health service run far deeper than the minister unfortunately.
    Once again, the 'appetite' will definitely come when the full blown property tax arises, which will push already struggling families over the edge.

    Every single proposed charge has been said to push people "over the edge", yet it hasn't happened. And don't forget the charge will come with the usual host of exemptions and waivers. I just don't see thousands of people being genuinely pushed into poverty because of this.
    As Alastair himself stated, we're already paying for Local services, a property tax to 'pay for local services' is blatantly asking us to buy the same thing twice at double the cost.

    No it isn't. There is a gap between what is spent on local services and the tax we pay to fund said social services, which is funded by borrowing. We're not even paying for them once, never-mind twice!
    Here is one individual who will not be paying.

    You don't simply get to choose I'm afraid. An honest question; what is the difference between you evading tax, and those who shuffle money offshore to evade paying tax? Do you think either is morally acceptable?
    I'll pay a service charge, rates, whatever they want to call them, on the condition I get services provided.

    You are getting the services provided for less than what they cost at the moment.


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    #5626
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    kr7 wrote: »
    The sooner we hand over complete control of our finances to the troika the better.
    The troika have mandated the property tax - you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth now.


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    #5627
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    No it isn't. There is a gap between what is spent on local services and the tax we pay to fund said social services, which is funded by borrowing. We're not even paying for them once, never-mind twice!

    You'd think this would sink in at some point, wouldn't you?


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    #5628
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    dvpower wrote: »
    Who will implement your cuts?
    nobody in this countrybhas the guts, that's for sure !... that is why I say we are f*cked and our inability to act is going to prolong any chance of a recovery ...quote Dan O' Brien....

    "Politicians almost always slash investment spending more than other areas of spending when they run into budgetary problems. This is so because it is politically easier to stop building roads than to cut public pay and welfare."

    Virtually all economists agree on the following points...
    1. a country can not tax it's way out of recession
    2. spending cuts are far more preferable, even more than a combination of spending cuts / tax increases.

    These economists are the experts, not our politicians !....do you think the economists have got it wrong ???...if you do please explain why ?? :):)


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    #5629
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    If I didn't pay it - as I've stated - what do you think? :rolleyes:

    You said you did not pretend you would not have to pay it at the end of the day.
    alastair wrote: »
    I didn't pretend that I'd not have to pay up in the end of the day.

    So why did you not pay it at the start then, if you were not thinking you will not end up having to pay it?


  • Options
    #5630
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Izzy Skint wrote: »

    Virtually all economists agree on the following points...
    1. a country can not tax it's way out of recession
    2. spending cuts are far more preferable, even more than a combination of spending cuts / tax increases.

    These economists are the experts, not our politicians !....do you think the economists have got it wrong ???...if you do please explain why ?? :):)

    Which economists specifically claim that cuts alone are a better mechanism that cuts and tax increases combined? Links please.


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    #5631
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    dvpower wrote: »
    The troika have mandated the property tax - you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth now.

    They also mandated other cuts and savings that this shower won't implement.

    A compromised government again. I wonder how many times eamon has threatened to 'walk'?

    Attacking the poster again.






    Trawls through some of mine and alastairs more colourful exchanges


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    #5632
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    You said you did not pretend you would not have to pay it at the end of the day.



    So why did you not pay it at the start then, if you were not thinking you will not end up having to pay it?

    Because I was opposed to the poll tax. It was a protest. It's not too tricky to follow, is it?


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    #5633
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    dvpower wrote: »
    The troika have mandated the property tax - you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth now.

    I don't believe they have mandated this, I think the govt. negotiated this out of them and then presented to the public the pretence that "we have no choice"...... an earlier post of mine...

    "Besides our politicians lumping of gambling debts on to the Irish people, and then their very noble commitment to "pay back every single cent", I am convinced that our useless politicians have sold out the Irish people in yet another way !

    I am convinced, that the during their dirty secret little meetings with the IMF, the govt. diluted down the IMF demands for cuts in public spending, the govt. then compensated with commitments to introduce higher taxes, property and water charges etc....

    I can't believe for one second that the IMF, after looking at all the numbers ie. our spending versus tax revenue, our mortgage debt levels, our personal debt levels etc., agreed to such minimal cuts in public spending.

    I remember quotes from German officials along the lines of "we are bailing them out, and they are still paying themselves more than us"....think about it...

    It all points to our govt. bargaining and offering more tax raising measures to lessen spending cuts.... yes, the govt. gave a commitment to the IMF to introduce a property tax, but what they are not telling us is that it was THEIR idea !!!
    where is my proof ?.....where is the proof that I am wrong?"


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    #5634
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    Attacking the poster again.

    Attacking blatently self-contradictory posts - unfortunately that's your speciality.


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    #5635
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    BluntGuy wrote: »

    No it isn't. There is a gap between what is spent on local services and the tax we pay to fund said social services, which is funded by borrowing. We're not even paying for them once, never-mind twice!



    Sure were just handed that money and never have to pay it back.:rolleyes:


  • Options
    #5636
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    alastair wrote: »
    Because I was opposed to the poll tax. It was a protest. It's not too tricky to follow, is it?

    Are we not allowed hold the same position?


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    #5637
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Izzy Skint wrote: »
    I don't believe they have mandated this

    Reality calling!, reality calling!
    The EU/IMF Programme of Financial Support for Ireland commits the Government to the introduction of a property tax for 2012.


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    #5638
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kr7 wrote: »
    Are we not allowed hold the same position?

    You don't have the same position.

    You claim (;)) it's not a tax, and that you won't have to pay it. You've also got no case against it in terms of social justice.


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    #5639
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    kr7 wrote: »
    They also mandated other cuts and savings that this shower won't implement.
    Can you point to the cuts in the MOU that the government have failed to implement?


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    #5640
    kr7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 747 ✭✭✭kr7


    alastair wrote: »
    Attacking blatently self-contradictory posts - unfortunately that's your speciality.

    You as well. Well done you. Monkey see, monkey do.


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    #5641
    Izzy Skint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 304 ✭✭Izzy Skint


    alastair wrote: »
    Which economists specifically claim that cuts alone are a better mechanism that cuts and tax increases combined? Links please.

    here Alastair....just for you...
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0722/1224301110527.html

    also, do you ever listen to economists on the radio / tv, do you remember economists warning the govt. about spending long before the sh!t hit the fan in 2008 ???....come on man ....think !!!


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