Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Bullseye1

dvpower wrote: »

Are you going to tell us who you heard it from and where it was supposed to be leaked from?

What did you actually think this is going to end up at? Did you honestly think €100 for the coming years? Sure your happy to do your bit for the country.

paddy147

ROFLcopter wrote: »

I heard similar on newstalk the other morning on the way to work.

Will they accept grains of sand as a form of barter/settlement?

Because thats all I will have to give them next year,with the way this country is going..

dvpower

Bullseye1 wrote: »

What did you actually think this is going to end up at? Did you honestly think €100 for the coming years? Sure your happy to do your bit for the country.

I've no idea. It'll certainly be increased next year. That decision has already been made.

It would be amazing if the property tax rates were already decided, so the idea of information being leaked sounds like nonsense.

ROFLcopter

dvpower wrote: »

Did you hear that the figure has been decided and was leaked or did you hear someone speculating about the figure? Big difference.

It was a rumor they were discussing and the figure they were speculating was higher, €12>1,300 for an average run of the mill 3 bed semi. I only got the end of the conversation.

But still a rumor in this country usually has some merit and Enda or Phil hasn't come out to deny any of it.

Bullseye1

A property tax based on value is years away if it were to be done properly. Asking someone to put a value on their house is going to be fun i) it's human nature to try and value it as high as possible in order to get as much profit as possible and ii) if the tax is based on value people will want to value it as low as possible in order to reduce their property tax liability.

Bullseye1

dvpower wrote: »

I've no idea. It'll certainly be increased next year. That decision has already been made.

It would be amazing if the property tax rates were already decided, so the idea of information being leaked sounds like nonsense.

We are talking about Phil Hogan here.

dvpower

Bullseye1 wrote: »

We are talking about Phil Hogan here.

It will require a cabinet decision.

The Crab

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

If everybody adopted your philosophy, nobody would do anything in this country. There would be no reward for effort.

Frankly, IMO it's your freeloading mentality that has the country in the mess that it currently is.

Regrettably you seem to be a member of an ever increasing pool of people who don't grasp the 'user pays' ; 'creator earns' concept.

Nice to know someone who woreks and contributes to society is a 'freeloader'.

OK, as it seems to be so difficult for your brain to understand what a social conscience is I'll give you some blunt examples and then ask you some blunt questions.

Mr and Mrs Cahill grew up in wealthy families in an exclusive area of Dublin. They both got all the breaks and were supported by their families through expensive third level education courses. They got great jobs and worked hard. They ascended through various companies becoming top dogs. They bought a €5 million house and enjoy a very luxurious lifestyle. They then had children who likewise enjoyed a luxurious lifestyle.

Mr and Mrs Phelan grew up in low income families on the other side of town. Both families had worked their whole lives but because of a lack of third level education they had always remained in low income jobs. Mr and Mrs Phelan were industrious and took on jobs as a barman and a shop assistant respectively. They both worked 50-60 hours a week so that they could buy a simple house to raise their children. The mortgage was expensive but affordable. Their children enjoyed a reasonable lifestyle.

The recession hit and both men lost their jobs. Mrs Cahill however was in a great job and so it made little difference to the family as a whole. For the Phelans it left things very tight but they could hold onto the mortgage.

Both families had healthplans, the Cahills a top one, the Phelans an average one. Then the government introduced a property tax which took no account of people' ability to pay. This meant that the Cahill had to give up one of their five trips abroad a year up. It meant the Phelans who hadn't been on holiday in five years had to give up their healthplan.

Two weeks later the Cahills' three year old boy tragically contracted cancer. A day later the Phelans tragically got the same news about their three year old girl.

The Cahills' son, falling under the healthplan had fast and quality treatment. The Phelans' girl had to rely on slow and poor quality public treatment. The Cahill boy happily recovered, the Phelan' daughter died.

They're the decisions being faced by families up and down this countr. The story, though in itself fictional, is hardly far-fetched.

So my question to you is, do you think a system like that is fair?

I have my doubts you'll even reply as there's only one possible answer.

alfa beta

The Crab wrote: »

Your wife earns more than ten grand a month yet she only pays 4.5k (a month) in income tax? Sorry but that's why the country is in the state its in. There should be a level considered decent enough to live on, say 30,000 per annum and anything above that gets taxed at 100%. Exactly what do you need 5.5k a month for? Luxurious living, certainly not basic living. I've never heard such a right wing view. My wife is so talented she earns great money so to hell with everyone else.

This is such an annoying, begrudging and to some extent intolerant attitude. What's more, its the type of view that makes millions of people just like me steer well clear of socialism and continue to support a centre-right wing party - even when they're not doing a great job.

Surely if you want to change others to your way of thinking, you might try to persuade and convince rather than just rant on about them being 'the reason the country is in the state it's in'

And seriously, why exactly in your view is it my wife's fault that the country is on it's knees? Is it because she does a job whereby her private American employers reward her in a way they believe is commensurate with her skills and her hard work to the extent that she then contributes about 50k (of their money remember) in direct taxes to this state (not to mention the amount she contributes indirectly every time she fills up the car, buys clothes, books a weekend away etc etc??)

Again I ask you, what is wrong with someone doing a good job for a private profitable (and in this case foreign) company, getting well paid for it and paying what I think is a decent chunk of their earnings into state coffers both directly and indirectly.

Do a quick sum - if my wife continues to do her job well for the next decade she'll be responsible for the transfer of about half-a-million euros from a private company's earnings into the state (through her direct paye taxes alone - ignoring inflation and all that). If I continue earning what I did last year (low twenties) or thereabouts for the next decade I'd pay about 30k in direct tax over the same period - bit of a difference there, so please don't give me this high-earners get off scot-free line ....it just isn't the case.

Now as to your question about our standard of living, well you're right it's good and I find it hard to see a reason to apologise for that. The amount she earns for example means that I can stay at home and look after our child (while squeezing paid self-employed work during school hours if I want) - but even this has benefits in itself. The free time I've gained as a result of her earning enough for all three of us means that I've been able to do a good deal of voluntary work for the school and the village we live in and contribute in that way to the local community even when I'm not earning much myself.

Finally I think your 'to hell with everyone else' slur is a bit of a cliche and I find it both insulting and incorrect - it's not how I nor my wife think at all (I'm sure it applies to some people, but I also think the people it applies to could be found across all facets of the social spectrum.)

lividduck

The Crab wrote: »

Nice to know someone who woreks and contributes to society is a 'freeloader'.

OK, as it seems to be so difficult for your brain to understand what a social conscience is I'll give you some blunt examples and then ask you some blunt questions.

Mr and Mrs Cahill grew up in wealthy families in an exclusive area of Dublin. They both got all the breaks and were supported by their families through expensive third level education courses. They got great jobs and worked hard. They ascended through various companies becoming top dogs. They bought a €5 million house and enjoy a very luxurious lifestyle. They then had children who likewise enjoyed a luxurious lifestyle.

Mr and Mrs Phelan grew up in low income families on the other side of town. Both families had worked their whole lives but because of a lack of third level education they had always remained in low income jobs. Mr and Mrs Phelan were industrious and took on jobs as a barman and a shop assistant respectively. They both worked 50-60 hours a week so that they could buy a simple house to raise their children. The mortgage was expensive but affordable. Their children enjoyed a reasonable lifestyle.

The recession hit and both men lost their jobs. Mrs Cahill however was in a great job and so it made little difference to the family as a whole. For the Phelans it left things very tight but they could hold onto the mortgage.

Both families had healthplans, the Cahills a top one, the Phelans an average one. Then the government introduced a property tax which took no account of people' ability to pay. This meant that the Cahill had to give up one of their five trips abroad a year up. It meant the Phelans who hadn't been on holiday in five years had to give up their healthplan.

Two weeks later the Cahills' three year old boy tragically contracted cancer. A day later the Phelans tragically got the same news about their three year old girl.

The Cahills' son, falling under the healthplan had fast and quality treatment. The Phelans' girl had to rely on slow and poor quality public treatment. The Cahill boy happily recovered, the Phelan' daughter died.

They're the decisions being faced by families up and down this countr. The story, though in itself fictional, is hardly far-fetched.

So my question to you is, do you think a system like that is fair?

I have my doubts you'll even reply as there's only one possible answer.

I've read some crap on Boards in my time but that takes the biscuit!
BTW expensive third level education is actually FREE and if you get the maximum grant then the student charge is paid!
Plenty of people have risen to the top through hard work, plenty have made their fortunes without ever going to college!
Get a life!

Am Chile

Just heard LGMA CEO Paul Mcsweeny on rte news at 1 state they don,t actually know how many houses are liable for the household charge.

Page 17 of the newly published census says numbers of houses are total 2,004,175

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/Prelim%20complete.pdf

So out of that 2,004,175 we don,t know how many are actually liable to pay and how many just to have to register to claim a waiver.

paddy147

Am Chile wrote: »

Just heard LGMA CEO Paul Mcsweeny on rte news at 1 state they don,t actually know how many houses are liable for the household charge.

Page 17 of the newly published census says numbers of houses are total 2,004,175

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/Prelim%20complete.pdf

So out of that 2,004,175 we don,t know how many are actually liable to pay and how many just to have to register to claim a waiver.

Its amazing that "certain" people here on this forum thread seem to know the exact figures though and keep on pedaling those figures in order to try bully and scare people.

Thats absolutely amazing though,considering the goverment themselves dont have a bloody clue.


Good find/link too,well done indeed.:D

The Crab

lividduck wrote: »

I've read some crap on Boards in my time but that takes the biscuit!
BTW expensive third level education is actually FREE and if you get the maximum grant then the student charge is paid!
Plenty of people have risen to the top through hard work, plenty have made their fortunes without ever going to college!
Get a life!

It was an example, you can't possibly expect me to list every reason why someone can find themselves in a difficult position. You can't possibly be that self-absorbed that you think these choices,or lack of are not being faced by people up and down the country. Read a newspaper, watch a current affairs programme. Your hissy fit is a reaction to being asked a difficult question is because you don' want to answer it.

lividduck

Am Chile wrote: »

Just heard LGMA CEO Paul Mcsweeny on rte news at 1 state they don,t actually know how many houses are liable for the household charge.

Page 17 of the newly published census says numbers of houses are total 2,004,175

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/Prelim%20complete.pdf

So out of that 2,004,175 we don,t know how many are actually liable to pay and how many just to have to register to claim a waiver.

The overall vacancy rate (i.e. the percentage of dwellings that are

vacant) has therefore fallen slightly to 14.7 per cent.(Same source) so we can extrapolate that their are 1,709,561 occupied dwellings.
Which means that a hell of a lot have not registered, since you need to register even if you are exempt or have a waiver.

jimmynokia

here is a good one for use all..
Hogan wont pay his household charge on holiday home its a must read...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/phil-hogan-refuses-to-pay-4k-service-charges-on-his-portugal-holiday-penthouse-3067684.html

The Crab

And third level education is not free. Course fee might be but the income level of the family has to be extremely low. Even when you get a grant there are still things that lower level income families can't support such as books, accommodation, travel expenses etc. Anyone who thinks the cost of third level education is only course fee related is living in cloud cuckoo land.

And of course people have made it to the top without third level education. But it was one example. I can't give every reason why people have difficulties. But laziness, the all encompassing reason given by the bigheads in this thread isn't generally one of them.

The Crab

And third level education is not free. Course fee might be but the income level of the family has to be extremely low. Even when you get a grant there are still things that lower level income families can't support such as books, accommodation, travel expenses etc. Anyone who thinks the cost of third level education is only course fee related is living in cloud cuckoo land.

And of course people have made it to the top without third level education. But it was one example. I can't give every reason why people have difficulties. But laziness, the all encompassing reason given by the bigheads in this thread isn't generally one of them.

donalg1

Bullseye1 wrote: »

A property tax based on value is years away if it were to be done properly. Asking someone to put a value on their house is going to be fun i) it's human nature to try and value it as high as possible in order to get as much profit as possible and ii) if the tax is based on value people will want to value it as low as possible in order to reduce their property tax liability.

I reckon they wil do it based on square footage that way it won't fluctuate as much as the value and would be far easier to calculate and monitor any changes. Plus it mean a more predictable annual yield

alastair

jimmynokia wrote: »

here is a good one for use all..
Hogan wont pay his household charge on holiday home its a must read...

That's neither a household charge, nor a tax. It's a service charge with a private firm. Otherwise...

lividduck

The Crab wrote: »

And third level education is not free. Course fee might be but the income level of the family has to be extremely low. Even when you get a grant there are still things that lower level income families can't support such as books, accommodation, travel expenses etc. Anyone who thinks the cost of third level education is only course fee related is living in cloud cuckoo land.

And of course people have made it to the top without third level education. But it was one example. I can't give every reason why people have difficulties. But laziness, the all encompassing reason given by the bigheads in this thread isn't generally one of them.

The maximum grant is almost €6,000 ffs, and students only spend 26 weeks a year in college!
You need to wake up to reality, capitalism drives the economy, provides jobs, wealth and pays for services.
I work hard , I took risks and started a business, I earn a decent living and NO you cant have my money because you're jealous!
The idea that the fruits of my labours and the risks I took should be given to you is abhorrent to me. I dont mind paying reasonable taxes but if you seriously believe that anyone with any talent will stay in a country that applies 100% tax on earnings over 30,000 is insane.

Biggins

paddy147 wrote: »

I think big Phill will have to go and resign now,if the Indo story is completely true.

How can he stand up yesterday and tell the Irish people that we have to pay the 100 euro charge,and threaten us all with all the idle threats,when he wont pay and refuses pay for his luxury holiday villa in Portugal.

That he is entitled to some privicy and he is annoyed that the newspaper broke the story.
Hes only annoyed that he got found out and its now out in the public domain.
It must be a very tough life and existance on a mininsters salary.

Its in a number of papers this morning that Hogan has refused to pay his taxes elsewhere.
€4,320 to be exact is what he's refusing tio pay.

More of "Do as I say - not as I (don't) do" in his case and from FG!

Two faced liars and their supports are blind!
Here is one of their supporters yesterday at their annual Dublin bash - sending a message to the public there speaking up:

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/6433/53461837815406887174215.jpg

It only took them 1 year to achieve the level of arrogance that FF reached after 14 years. Shameless!!!

hondasam

Biggins wrote: »

Its in a number of papers this morning that Hogan has refused to pay his taxes elsewhere.
€4,320 to be exact is what he's refusing tio pay.

More of "Do as I say - not as I (don't) do" in his case and from FG!

Two faced liars and their supports are blind!
Here is one of their supporters yesterday at their annual Dublin bash - sending a message to the public there speaking up:

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/6433/53461837815406887174215.jpg

It only took them 1 year to achieve the level of arrogance that FF reached after 14 years. Shameless!!!

Who is she biggins? she is not doing anyone any favours with that attitude.

alastair

Biggins wrote: »

Its in a number of papers this morning that Hogan has refused to pay his taxes elsewhere.]

They're not taxes. Otherwise...

Biggins

alastair wrote: »

They're not taxes. Otherwise...

They are charges on his home there - go spin the wordplay elsewhere.
He's refusing to pay for services that his household is using - end of story!

The Crab

I'm not jealous and I don't want your money. I have enough of my own thanks. You took it on yourself to judge that because I argue for the poor that I am poor myself. I'm not counting the millions but I'm not broke either. I have a decent life which I'm thankful for. But I also have a social conscience and see people truly struggling and rather than castigate them like you would like to do I prefer to give them a hand up.

alastair

Biggins wrote: »

They are charges on his home there - go spin the wordplay elsewhere.
He's refusing to pay for services that his household is using - end of story!

They're not taxes. They're nothing to do with anyone but a private company and himself.

My name is URL

alastair wrote: »

They're not taxes. Otherwise...

I bet it really sticks in your craw that this story has broken.

It's great

"Would you pay a charge if you were unhappy with the service?" he asked.

Comedy gold right there.

Biggins

alastair wrote: »

They're not taxes. They're nothing to do with anyone but a private company and himself.

So he is NOT refusing to pay for services to his home then, is that what your telling us?

Go spin your crap elsewhere.
Your wasting your time here.
A clever person would have got that hint by now!
Sorry, I refuse to be a dumb led animal!

phil1nj

Biggins wrote: »

They are charges on his home there - go spin the wordplay elsewhere.
He's refusing to pay for services that his household is using - end of story!

The hypocrisy (snigger) of that man! He (big Phil Hogan now) most likely signed a contract with the private holiday home company (a legally binding document) and then, based on what was reported, decided not to pay because he wasn't happy with the services provided. It now looks like rather than go down the legal route of courts etc and what have you he took it upon himself to breach the terms of that contract , withhold payment and therefore has criminalized himself by breaching the terms of his contract, his legally binding (as in lawful) contract. You would never see that happening in this country....oh no wait hang on...:D

ArmaniJeanss

Biggins wrote: »

Its in a number of papers this morning that Hogan has refused to pay his taxes elsewhere.
€4,320 to be exact is what he's refusing tio pay.

More of "Do as I say - not as I (don't) do" in his case and from FG!

You generally come across as having a functioning brain, so I'm sure it hasn't escaped your notice that it's not actually a tax that Hogan is not paying, its a dispute between an apartment owner and a managment company. Yet you've chosen to make some false comparison with taxes.

Is this the standard of debating we can expect from your new party?